OT: MIDI over network?

[Dave Labrecque]

So, here's the deal:

Got a guy coming in on Sunday to record, among other things, his digital piano. After asking if it had MIDI out (yes) I told him we could experiment with trying various piano sample libraries I have, if he's not crazy about his on-board sound.

Now I realize that I'm in the position of not having direct MIDI access to the studio; I do all my MIDI stuff here in the control room. D'oh!

Any ideas? Is there a way to get MIDI into a laptop and send it over a network to another computer? I do have ethernet access in the room. I have an old 2PortSE around here somewhere. I don't suppose that'll work on XP, though.

Maybe I'll make a MIDI to XLR breakout pigtail and use my tie-lines. :eek: Ha!

Any help really appreciated!

[Dave Labrecque]

OK, following Steve Berson's example of using the wealth of info on the Internet, I found a couple software solutions. Cool!

Now, I just need to find an easy way to get MIDI into my laptop. What's the quickest, simplest way? I suppose I gotta buy something? Like, say, a MIDI interface?

[Dave Labrecque]

Great. I found what looks like a fairly inexpensive MIDI interface on the web: the M-Audio USB Uno is a 1x1-cables-attached-plastic-little-pod thing. Supposed to be XP-compatible. Looks like a decent no-frills, cheap solution. Anyone know anything about it in real-world use?

Hey, I really appreciate all the help I'm getting here. :)

[Sean McCoy]

Why not just run a long MIDI cable? Unless he's recording acoustically while playing his digital piano, you could run a cable through the door and spend nothing.

Also, Gefen makes a Cat-5 based USB MIDI extender (not cheap):

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2218

Interesting idea about a MIDI to XLR adapter. I've never seen one, but MIDI only uses three of its five pins anyway so it should work--in theory.

[Dave Labrecque]

Why not just run a long MIDI cable? Unless he's recording acoustically while playing his digital piano, you could run a cable through the door and spend nothing.

Also, Gefen makes a Cat-5 based USB MIDI extender (not cheap):

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2218

Interesting idea about a MIDI to XLR adapter. I've never seen one, but MIDI only uses three of its five pins anyway so it should work--in theory.

Hi Sean,

I really don't like the running-a-cable-through-the-sound-lock approach, though it is certainly the quick solution (pending the purchase of a long cable). They are going to be singing, too, so there's that. I like the monitors decently loud, though I suppose I could don the cans.

Only three pins for MIDI? Is that in addition to the shield, or no? Hell, I wouldn't mind soldering up a DIN-to-XLR cable. Anything else that might come into play? Could it be that simple? :confused:

[Dave Labrecque]

Anyone who's interested, check these out:

http://www.musiclab.com/products/rpl_info.htm

http://www.nerds.de/en/ipmidi.html

The demos appear to be very usable.

They look super-cool. Anyone heard of 'em being used?

[Sean McCoy]

Several of the Logic "Power Users" who have extensive multi-platform, multi-machine setups to handle their mondo sample libraries swear by MIDIOVERLAN. It seems that it does work---though it may be overkill for most people's needs.

There was a bit of a stir about wireless MIDI for awhile, but a quick Google scan doesn't turn up much on it. Must have died on the vine.

[Dave Labrecque]

This may work. Pins 2, 4, and 5. 2 is the shield.

Anyone have a sense of the signal level in a MIDI cable? I'm wondering about inducing cross-talk in the tie-line multipair cable.

[Dave Labrecque]

Several of the Logic "Power Users" who have extensive multi-platform, multi-machine setups to handle their mondo sample libraries swear by MIDIOVERLAN. It seems that it does work---though it may be overkill for most people's needs.

There was a bit of a stir about wireless MIDI for awhile, but a quick Google scan doesn't turn up much on it. Must have died on the vine.

Well, if you have a wireless network it oughta work. At least one of these sites gives some instructions on how to make it work with your wireless router.

Thanks for the info!

[mako]

If pins 4 and 5 are hooked up to headphones, you can hear any data being sent - I'd guess about 0.3 volts.

I'd give the tie lines a go.

cheers

mako

[Dave Labrecque]

If pins 4 and 5 are hooked up to headphones, you can hear any data being sent - I'd guess about 0.3 volts.

I'd give the tie lines a go.

cheers

mako

Can't hurt to try it, I guess.

The Internet tells me the digital pulses are 0 and +5 volts on pin 5, while pin 4 is a constant +5 volts. I guess the RMS voltage would be lower (like I have any idea what I'm talking about), if that matters.

Anyone know what that may mean for crosstalk in a multipair cable?

[Bob L]

We have run midi down standard mic lines many times... make your cable adaptor for each end... it works fine.

I do not remember the pinout, but it does work.

We searched the web for the midi pinout diagram once and had no trouble building the adaptor when we did.

You can also record the audio and midi at the same time with MWS and then select different sample libraries later... this way you are not locked in at the time of the performance.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

We have run midi down standard mic lines many times... make your cable adaptor for each end... it works fine.

I do not remember the pinout, but it does work.

We searched the web for the midi pinout diagram once and had no trouble building the adaptor when we did.

You can also record the audio and midi at the same time with MWS and then select different sample libraries later... this way you are not locked in at the time of the performance.

Bob L

That's what I was hoping to hear! I found the pinout easy enough. As long as the crosstalk isn't a problem, I guess it should work fine.

Yeah, I was planning on recording the MIDI and the audio as you describe.

Thanks, Bob. :)

[Bob L]

Back in the SAMM days (Yamaha ProMix 01 control software), we ran midi in both directions down 250 foot, 50 pair snakes for many large concert performances with no midi glitches.

We did Neil Diamond, Earth Wind and Fire and Tower Of Power performances this way, to name a few.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Back in the SAMM days (Yamaha ProMix 01 control software), we ran midi in both directions down 250 foot, 50 pair snakes for many large concert performances with no midi glitches.

We did Neil Diamond, Earth Wind and Fire and Tower Of Power performances this way, to name a few.

Bob L

Well, if it's good enough for Neil Diamond... :cool:

[Mark Stebbeds]

we ran midi in both directions down 250 foot, 50 pair snakes for many large concert performances with no midi glitches.

We did Neil Diamond, Earth Wind and Fire and Tower Of Power performances this way, to name a few.

Bob L

I KNEW those horns were samples.!!:)

Mark

[Bob L]

I KNEW those horns were samples.!!:)


I'm still looking for horn samples like that. :)

Actually... our midi was used to control the bank of ProMix 01 mixers with my SAMM software... which controlled the horn mixes (and everything else) with detailed mix moves... it was fun to see it all in motion.

Bob L

[Carey Langille]

I have a Midi to XLR here and it works just fine.. Probably going through 75 ft of shielded cable.... no issues... and i can use it anywhere in the studio.... No Phantom power needed!! DOH!;)

[Bud Johnson]

Just wondering.......
Wouldn't it be a bit easier to have him play the keyboard in the control room? You could leave the amp in the recording room if you want it mic'd.
Unless space in the control room is the issue.
Again, just wondering??

[Dave Labrecque]

I have a Midi to XLR here and it works just fine.. Probably going through 75 ft of shielded cable.... no issues... and i can use it anywhere in the studio.... No Phantom power needed!! DOH!;)

Great, Carey -- thanks! I'm gonna try it out, here, soon.

[Dave Labrecque]

Just wondering.......
Wouldn't it be a bit easier to have him play the keyboard in the control room? You could leave the amp in the recording room if you want it mic'd.
Unless space in the control room is the issue.
Again, just wondering??

Space is a bit of an issue, and the amp issue doesn't exist (I'm pretty sure he's looking for a DI hook-up, assuming we even want his audio output.). But the main thing is allowing him to perform with his partner on bass, both singing. It's never the same when they're in different rooms, even if they can look at each other through the glass. Plus, I don't want some guy in the room with me. :)

[Mark Stebbeds]

Well, in my humble opinion, this all sounds like way more work (and opening pandora's box) than just running a midi cable out the control room door, and partially closing the door on the cable, if you are concerned about CR monitor leakage, which you shouldn't be.

When you have some time off, drill a hole in the wall and run a midi cable or two so you can close the door.:)

Mark

[Dave Labrecque]

Well, in my humble opinion, this all sounds like way more work (and opening pandora's box) than just running a midi cable out the control room door, and partially closing the door on the cable, if you are concerned about CR monitor leakage, which you shouldn't be.

When you have some time off, drill a hole in the wall and run a midi cable so you can close the door.:)

Mark

Don't have a cable that long. (no jokes) It would actually be cheaper for me to make up the adapters. Got lots of wire and connectors about.

And your hole-in-the-wall idea is ridiculous. Instead, I'm going to simply break one of the windows (OK, that would be two panes, but who's counting?). :p

[Mark Stebbeds]

[QUOTE]Don't have a cable that long. (no jokes)

OK, this is not fair. You can't leave yourself open like that, and then create a rule to limit the response. (You could have said "midi cable", but you chose not to:mad: )



It would actually be cheaper for me to make up the adapters.

And then follow it with this.:rolleyes:

Mark:)

[sebastiandybing]

As Bob, i have been buying some 5 pin din to xlr cables and run the
midi through the Xfelt, works everytime.
No problems

Sebastian

[Bud Johnson]

Space is a bit of an issue, and the amp issue doesn't exist (I'm pretty sure he's looking for a DI hook-up, assuming we even want his audio output.). But the main thing is allowing him to perform with his partner on bass, both singing. It's never the same when they're in different rooms, even if they can look at each other through the glass. Plus, I don't want some guy in the room with me. :)
Got it.
I like the drill solution.

[Dave Labrecque]

As Bob, i have been buying some 5 pin din to xlr cables and run the
midi through the Xfelt, works everytime.
No problems

Sebastian

Great to know.

You can actually buy these adaptors somewhere?

What's an Xfelt?

[Dave Labrecque]

[quote=Dave Labrecque;55061]

OK, this is not fair. You can't leave yourself open like that, and then create a rule to limit the response. (You could have said "midi cable", but you chose not to:mad: )



And then follow it with this.:rolleyes:

Mark:)

Hey, nobody said life was fair.

(actually, this is how a rationalize my short cable)

[Cary B. Cornett]

When you have some time off, drill a hole in the wall and run a midi cable or two so you can close the door.:)
Actually, that is not as funny as it first sounds. In an earlier studio location I actually built a 3 x 3 inch duct through the wall beside the double glass, and then stuffed acoustical foam into the duct to plug the gap after running whatever wires through. I could thus properly close the control room door. I found that the isolation through the wall did not suffer as much as you might expect, and the arrangement worked well for me.

In my current studio (still under painfully slow construction), I have put a similar duct through the wall at floor level near the control room door, only I have made the duct longer so that I can use more foam to block sound leakage.

[Dave Labrecque]

Actually, that is not as funny as it first sounds. In an earlier studio location I actually built a 3 x 3 inch duct through the wall beside the double glass, and then stuffed acoustical foam into the duct to plug the gap after running whatever wires through. I could thus properly close the control room door. I found that the isolation through the wall did not suffer as much as you might expect, and the arrangement worked well for me.

In my current studio (still under painfully slow construction), I have put a similar duct through the wall at floor level near the control room door, only I have made the duct longer so that I can use more foam to block sound leakage.

Cary,

Since acoustical foam is meant to kill reflections, rather than block sound energy transmission, I wonder if you'd have better results using some higher-density material.

[Cary B. Cornett]

Cary,

Since acoustical foam is meant to kill reflections, rather than block sound energy transmission, I wonder if you'd have better results using some higher-density material.

Possibly, but the foam is convenient and relatively easy to stuff around the cables. It has worked well for me, so I have felt no need to search for a better material.

[Mark Stebbeds]

Actually, that is not as funny as it first sounds.

It wasn't meant to be funny, although I was using the term loosely, and meant basically what you described...put in a panel.

mark

[Mark Stebbeds]

Cary,

Since acoustical foam is meant to kill reflections, rather than block sound energy transmission, I wonder if you'd have better results using some higher-density material.

Higher density material could transmit sound vibrations more effieciently.

This point could be moot, depending on the existing structure of your walls. It could be the weak link that lessens the amount of isolation, or it could be negligible.

Mark

[Dave Labrecque]

Possibly, but the foam is convenient and relatively easy to stuff around the cables. It has worked well for me, so I have felt no need to search for a better material.


If it ain't broke...

[Dave Labrecque]

Higher density material could transmit sound vibrations more effieciently.

Only if it resonated. I doubt anything stuffable would be a good transmitter.



This point could be moot, depending on the existing structure of your walls. It could be the weak link that lessens the amount of isolation, or it could be negligible.

MarkTrue enough, looks like for Cary the latter is the case.

[Mark Stebbeds]

Only if it resonated. I doubt anything stuffable would be a good transmitter.


This is not necessarily correct. All materials have a resonant frequency, but that does not prevent them from transmitting sound waves. Structure borne sound transmission is much more difficult to stop than airborne sound transmission because of the increased speed of sound in common building materials as compared to air. Densely packed cavities can trasmit sound better than loosely packed cavities. (no jokes):)

Mark

[Dave Labrecque]

This is not necessarily correct. All materials have a resonant frequency, but that does not prevent them from transmitting sound waves.

No, I'm saying a resonant frequency aids in transmiting sound waves.

Anyway, all I was saying is that there are better, denser, more sound-proof choices than acoustic foam (which is not designed to be sound-proof, just somewhat reflection-proof) for stuffing a hole in the wall, should there be a need, which there isn't in this case. :)

Now, back to our discussion of body cavities...

[Frank Ippolito]

so did you do the session, dave? sounds like the cable project would work - though not as fun as stuffing loosely-filled cavities. I was interested in wireless midi a while back for my wind synth, but I never went there. these guys seemed to have the real deal...

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/MidiJetPro.html

-frank

[MMP]

I was interested in wireless midi a while back for my wind synth, but I never went there. these guys seemed to have the real deal...

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/MidiJetPro.html

-frank

I bought one of these systems and it has worked flawlessly for me.

Regards,

MM

[Dave Labrecque]

so did you do the session, dave? sounds like the cable project would work - though not as fun as stuffing loosely-filled cavities. I was interested in wireless midi a while back for my wind synth, but I never went there. these guys seemed to have the real deal...

http://www.patchmanmusic.com/MidiJetPro.html

-frank

Hi Frank,

Hey, didn't you used to frequent the forum (or one of it's predecessors) years ago?

Thanks for asking... the session went fine. Yes, I built a couple of DIN-to-XLR adaptors (one leaving the studio, one entering the control room) using a single shorty MIDI cable and two male XLR connectors. Worked great. And I didn't hear any digital cross-talk in the other tie lines coming from the same panel in the room, either. Whoda thunk it could be so simple?

Now I'm using Bob's new tap tempo feature in MWS to tempo map the performance. Sweet! :)

Thanks everyone for helping me work through this to a very simple solution!

[Mark Stebbeds]

Thanks everyone for helping me work through this to a very simple solution!

Were you able to pack any cavities?

Mark

[Dave Labrecque]

Were you able to pack any cavities?

Mark

LOL. :p

Not during the session, no. However, the bass player was free for dinner...

[Frank Ippolito]

Hi Frank,

Hey, didn't you used to frequent the forum (or one of it's predecessors) years ago?

hey dave,

yup, that's me. jumped onboard after buying SAW 2.5g I believe. worked over betas of sawpro along the way. I sent out a general hello when I posted my 1st post here over the weekend. I've been keeping up with studio upgrades, but truthfully have only been using SawPro - pretty much for quick and easy scratchpad demos of songwriting. I decided it was time to enter the present and get up to speed on SS. great to see some old faces. you, tosti-lane, and bill parks are the 1st names I recognized. I'm sure there are others but I haven't dug through many of the posts yet. catch you around...

[Dave Labrecque]

hey dave,

yup, that's me. jumped onboard after buying SAW 2.5g I believe. worked over betas of sawpro along the way. I sent out a general hello when I posted my 1st post here over the weekend. I've been keeping up with studio upgrades, but truthfully have only been using SawPro - pretty much for quick and easy scratchpad demos of songwriting. I decided it was time to enter the present and get up to speed on SS. great to see some old faces. you, tosti-lane, and bill parks are the 1st names I recognized. I'm sure there are others but I haven't dug through many of the posts yet. catch you around...

Great to have you back, Frank. Don't be a stranger! :)