64 bit audio engine?

[Microstudio]

With the CPU's and Windows gearing up for full 64 bit software support what are the benifits of the 64 bit audio engines... are they that much better and what about effects and VST's? Sonar is already for the 64 bit move is SAW going to be moving into the 64 bit world or is there really no need?

[TotalSonic]

Hi Microstudio -
It's important when discussing these things to not get confused by the varying useages and meanings of the word "bits."

First off there's the bit depth of an audio file - this describes the amount of steps in the data used to describe the dynamic range of each sample. i.e. 16bit, 24bit, 32bit. It's important to note that all current Digital to Analog Converters that I am aware of need to have 24bit integer data prior to their output - and that real world dynamic range of even the very best of these converters doesn't really ever exceed 21bits - which is still pretty much way below the perceivable noise floor of pretty much any environment or perception.
This is why 32bit floating point IEEE files are really an interim storeage format and why there really is no such thing or even ever the need for such a thing as a "32bit DA converter"

Next - there's the use of the word bit to describe the number of mathematical places used in the processing math (particularly important for multiples and divides) when a DAW does internal digital signal processing - which can be done in either fixed (aka "integer" - where there's always a fixed number of decimal places) or floating point (where the decimal place "floats" so that whatever the maximum amount of places is always used)

With SAW 64bit internal processing has been implemented for a long time - in fact way longer than Sonar has advertised itself as a "64bit" app -
with afaik 64bit fixed point math used for pretty much all the internal multiples and divides in SAW except for the built in eq's - which operate using 64bit floating point math.

Also important to note that once the math is done it returns a data figure which is usually in less places than the amount that the processing math is done at. Most current DAW apps either return a 32bit floating point figure or a 24bit fixed point figure - SAW is fairly unique among PC native DAW apps in that it returns a 32bit integer figure which then gets passed to the next process in the signal chain before finally being truncated (or at your option dithered) to output as 24bit to the DAC.

Finally - there's the use of the word "bit" to describe the amount of data a buss or processor or OS can pass or process as one chunk - i.e. Windows 3.1 was a 16bit OS - Windows 2000 is a 32bit OS - now with Vista and things like the PCI-x and PCI-e buss formats we're supposed to get 64bit performance. Theoretically a 64bit OS and buss should allow you to have a system that will allow you to run more processes and more tracks smoothly - although all the preliminary reviews I've seen have described Vista as a horribly bloated and crippled OS that seems to offer little to the needs of the current DAW user..

Anyway - these explanations are a bit simplified - but hope that helps.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Microstudio]

Good stuff.. thanks Steve for taking the time.

I did not know that SAW used 64bit... now that kinda helps me understand why it sounds do good...:cool:

[Microstudio]

What is up with Sonars 64-bit double precision floating point mix engine? Is this just a big word... what is it compared to SS's engine?

I am just trying to understand...

[Bob L]

Just what we need... now we get twice as many artifacts as the 32 bit floating point engine. :)

Just kidding... can we say "More Hype".

Bob L

[TotalSonic]

What is up with Sonars 64-bit double precision floating point mix engine? Is this just a big word... what is it compared to SS's engine?

I am just trying to understand...

Once again - Wikipedia to the rescue -
"In computing, double precision is a computer numbering format that occupies two storage locations in computer memory at address and address+1. A double precision number, sometimes simply a double, may be defined to be an integer, fixed point, or floating point.

Lots more at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Precision

Interesting reading regarding advantages and disadvantages of floating point vs. fixed point math at:
http://www.rane.com/note157.html

Anyway - afaik SAW's internal math and the vast majority of the 3rd party native plugins written for it (i.e. JMS Audioware, Sonoris & Anwida stuff) all use double precision math.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Microstudio]

Thanks again I will definitely check out that reading info.

So from what I know already is vista and 64 bit cpu's going to allow us to use tons more ram and if so are SAW, VST's and effects going to run better?

This is all very interesting to me...

[TotalSonic]

Thanks again I will definitely check out that reading info.

So from what I know already is vista and 64 bit cpu's going to allow us to use tons more ram

If you want more RAM - all ya gotta do is add more RAM :)
This is more of limit of your motherboard than anything that has to do with the OS architecture.

& Actually from preliminary reviews Vista will REQUIRE you to use more RAM to get the same performance as you already have as the OS hijacks a heckuva lot of it just to run itself.



and if so are SAW, VST's and effects going to run better?


PCI buss bandwidth has indeed been a limiting factor that hasn't really been addressed until now - so this along with the potential for a jump in CPU processing speed increases makes a 64bit PC have the theoretical potential to do just what you are asking here.
BUT - whether it really makes a difference all factors into the implementation (i.e. the general disappointment with hyperthreading - which for DAW use is indeed generally "hype") - which until you test out a specific system remains an unknown.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Microstudio]

From what I know the 64bit OS will allow up to 128 GB's of ram? Now that is ram and I do not know of any 32bit OS's that will do this.

[TotalSonic]

From what I know the 64bit OS will allow up to 128 GB's of ram? Now that is ram and I do not know of any 32bit OS's that will do this.

Sure - the accessible RAM size limit in the current 2k/XP OS's is removed to a size that allows tons of future growth for next generation mobos and RAM formats. Now ya just have to find a mobo that will actually hold anywhere near that amount!

Anyway - yes, this bodes well for SAW as it should allow you to have even gigantic audio sessions cached entirely in the RAM. Still - if you have 4gigs of RAM loaded I figure you should be able to get most things running almost entirely in the cache pretty easily anyway. Just remember that FX processing is still CPU based so that these types increases in RAM, while helping a lot with track intensive sessions, doesn't make as much of an impact as far as amount available FX processing - that's more dependent on CPU processor speed.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Microstudio]

I love the Asus P5WDG2-WS its a beast. The 1066 FSB is what I really like. Big CPU + Big FSB + Tons of RAM = :)

But I still am doing just fine with my Asus P4C800 and I can pump the CPU over a ghz, and 2 more Gig of ram.

When the P5WDG2-WS are ready to go out I am going to snag one for cheap and then start to build my next mobo.

[Microstudio]

Motu has PCI E & X cards you can upgrade too.... wow!

[Pedro Itriago]

Motu has PCI E & X cards you can upgrade too.... wow!

Where's the gear lust off button?

[Microstudio]

Where's the gear lust off button?

Come on Pedro... you lust for gear.. I lust for gear... we all lust for gear. It is the gear that drives the gear in the studio...:cool:

I love to look at cutting edge stuff "Now" and then put it away for a while until it comes down in price... plus all the bugs will have been worked out of the stuff and most people will be going into debt to buy the new stuff to keep up with the jones... then I sneak in and upgrade for 1/2 the price...:cool: