Vist threat

[Cary B. Cornett]

I was already very suspicious of Vista as it might affect what we here need to do, but today I found a link in a tech newsletter that I subscribe to that I would consider a critically important read for anyone involved in the creation of content (that would be us) or in the creation of the tools, like pro sound interfaces, that we need. The document is here (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html).

I would be especially interested in Bob's reaction to the implications of what the article describes.

It's a bit long and detailed, but the case laid out is absolutely convincing, and all of us will be impacted by the DRM aspects of Vista, even those of us who never use Vista on our systems (I was shocked to discover that the DRM in Vista will ultimately force major redesigns of various computer hardware and drivers, and all of us will pay for the added costs that result). :mad: :mad: :mad: :eek: :(

[AudioAstronomer]

I was already very suspicious of Vista as it might affect what we here need to do, but today I found a link in a tech newsletter that I subscribe to that I would consider a critically important read for anyone involved in the creation of content (that would be us) or in the creation of the tools, like pro sound interfaces, that we need. The document is here (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html).

I would be especially interested in Bob's reaction to the implications of what the article describes.

It's a bit long and detailed, but the case laid out is absolutely convincing, and all of us will be impacted by the DRM aspects of Vista, even those of us who never use Vista on our systems (I was shocked to discover that the DRM in Vista will ultimately force major redesigns of various computer hardware and drivers, and all of us will pay for the added costs that result). :mad: :mad: :mad: :eek: :(

Or you could just get a m...

Is the joke overdone yet?

not a joke

[Craig Allen]

Or you could just get a m...

Is the joke overdone yet?

not a joke
You still gotta run a MS OS of some kind if you want to run SAW, though. It looks like I'll be stick with XP for a while (I had alread decided to do that before the atricle).

And I just read another article in this month's EQ praising Vista and some of the new functionality.

[DominicPerry]

Get a tape deck..........:D



Dominic

[Craig Allen]

Get a tape deck..........:D



Dominic
No more tape... :(

[Mark Stebbeds]

I
It's a bit long and detailed, but the case laid out is absolutely convincing, and all of us will be impacted by the DRM aspects of Vista, even those of us who never use Vista on our systems (I was shocked to discover that the DRM in Vista will ultimately force major redesigns of various computer hardware and drivers, and all of us will pay for the added costs that result). :mad: :mad: :mad: :eek: :(

Even if we were planning to use our current DAWs for 15 more years?:)

m

[mOjO Fet]

That sucks! We have to protest!

I didn't read the whole thing but if that actually comes thru I don't believe people will tolerate it.

I'm more the PC all in one guy but I'm not gonna get HD or bluray for vista when it's degraded and controlled, where's the fun!

I want to buy movies especially with such a high resolution because I want to see the pimples on the actors face that are four days old and all those details that don't matter and I think bluray might stay for quite some time but I don't need to be treated like a potential criminal.

If they want to deny me that I might as well stay with dvd on XP I guess.

Sure I could get a standalone player and a big HDTV for that but why when I'm comfortable on my PC.

I'm not worried about DAW's future though.:D
We still have XP.

Michael

[Microstudio]

In do time Bob will port SAW & MWS for OSX.

MS is slowly turning into the Matrix... we all need to remove the tracker and go underground.

[TotalSonic]

Or you could just get a m...

Is the joke overdone yet?

not a joke

If it only were that easy as getting a Mac...
BUT it is enormously naive to me to think that Apple is the savior in this as they have an equal if not greater interest (considering their income from iTunes) in having their future systems be DRM compliant and for the DAW user, potentially crippled. One of the reasons they switched to an Intel based system is in fact because they are working with them on putting DRM actually in at the hardware level. This possibly will be more "elegant" than the MS bloat and cludge that looks like Vista is - and in some ways I think they are standing back and letting MS shoot themselves in the foot on this issue before proceeding with their own implementations - but to me to not realize that Apple ultimately has little concern for the DAW user is to really be blind.

Of course to me Vista seems like an enormous mistake for a DAW user to use as their OS presently - so to me the only ultimate solution is for a Linux based OS with a no-brainer installer streamlined specifically for DAW app use only. At the present the ALSA and JACK Linux audio driver protocols are actually supported by a number pro card makers like RME, Echo, and M-Audio - and based on a number of reports stability issues of these protocols in the past seem to be getting much much better with recent revisions - so I think with a little nudging Linux could become a very much ready for prime time OS for DAW use.

A little bit ago in an email Jon Marshall Smith (JMS Audioware) actually let me know he had successfully mixed some of his bands tracks using Ardour and had ported all of the JMS plugins to work in Linux also. He stated that he still prefers working in SAW though but hoped that Bob would look towards a Linux port. While I don't want Bob to stop development on SAW in preference to the extensive coding necessary for a port - I still think based on MS's (and yes, Apple's) direction it would ultimately make sense for the future happiness of the end user.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[TotalSonic]

I'm not worried about DAW's future though.:D
We still have XP.


The problem with this is that as soon as MS stops support for it you only have XP as long as you don't need to reactivate or put it on a new system.

Windows 2000 is currently the last MS OS not needing activation for a new install. I think we're finally this year seeing software and hardware introductions which are not supporting Win2k though.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

but to me to not realize that Apple ultimately has little concern for the DAW user is to really be blind.


But I think you forget that if they control the end-user, they will wanna control the oem... which is us ;)

In the end really, the only thing that will work is what the 'true' users make for themselves. Like what saw began as, and what the linux audio projects are beginning as now.

[Scott Anthony]

I'm curious, and I hope this isn't a leading question, but Bob, if you are following this thread I'd like to know...

When Saw came out it was the first real Windows audio app I had heard of. CardD and the Turtle Beach stuff were DOS, if I remember correctly. I imagine you chose to work with Windows because it afforded benefits over the other options coupled with a wide user base and fairly affordable hardware.

If you were just coming to the fray today (with Vista looming ahead) and had to choose a platform, what might that be? I suppose it's impossible to say, the technical and social landscapes are totally different. And I know my personal and business goals have changed in 15+ years...

[jazzboxmaker]

Hey, I thought the article looked familiar-it's the "stink bomb" I threw couple a weeks ago! Anyway, I agree with Steve's analysis- Linux is going to have to be it for us. No way you're gonna convince me Apple isn't going in on this B.S.too. We'll probably be all right for 2 or 3 years with XP and Macs but what then?

What do you think Bob? How are your Linux chops?:)

[mOjO Fet]

The problem with this is that as soon as MS stops support for it you only have XP as long as you don't need to reactivate or put it on a new system.

Windows 2000 is currently the last MS OS not needing activation for a new install. I think we're finally this year seeing software and hardware introductions which are not supporting Win2k though.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

I figure we have at least five more years for XP maybe more maybe less but much can happen in five years.
I don't think MS can ignore the music industry by ignoring potential for DAWs in future OSs.

More and more big studios are closing today but that means more smaller facilities will run a DAW on a PC.
And the industry isn't getting smaller just because the big studios are vanishing on the contrary.

Maybe MS will give us something like a stripped down vista for musicmaking and recording without all these multimedia whistles and bells.

Michael

[Bruce Callaway]

What do you think Bob? How are your Linux chops?:)We may be forced to use Linux because it is will become too hard using Windows. A painful development path perhaps but maybe no other reasonable choice will exist in time.

[TotalSonic]

I figure we have at least five more years for XP maybe more maybe less but much can happen in five years.
I don't think MS can ignore the music industry by ignoring potential for DAWs in future OSs.

The DAW market is actually a teeny tiny blip on their radar relative to the huge iceberg that is the rest of the consumer market. So I don't think DAW users have been much of a consideration by them or else we would have seen an MS DAW app (or at least a takeover of an existing company) a long time ago. Apple has obviously expressed more interest with things like Garage Band and their takeover of Logic - but I still don't think they ultimately will tailor any changes specifically to DAW user's needs over other's.



More and more big studios are closing today but that means more smaller facilities will run a DAW on a PC.
And the industry isn't getting smaller just because the big studios are vanishing on the contrary.

Actually if you base it on net sales from most of the reports I've seen it looks like the "industry" in the USA actually peaked around 2000 even though there are a number of new formats being tracked (such as digital downloads, SACD, DVD-A), and that tracking the sales of smaller independent labels has markedly improved.

I still think those that have a passion for music making will keep doing it regardless of the financial rewards and actually welcome the independent spirit that can result from this - it's I just don't think the gradual ending of the apprenticeship system for training engineers or that the plethora of "Entertainment" options facing "consumers" necessarilly bodes well for keeping standards of sonic excellence high.



Maybe MS will give us something like a stripped down vista for musicmaking and recording without all these multimedia whistles and bells.


And the answer to this is that despite a number of version options for Vista - as far as I can tell they don't in fact have any plans to do this.

Not trying to be a negative downer - just trying to be realistic in reading the upcoming trends.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

Hey, I thought the article looked familiar-it's the "stink bomb" I threw couple a weeks ago! Anyway, I agree with Steve's analysis- Linux is going to have to be it for us. No way you're gonna convince me Apple isn't going in on this B.S.too. We'll probably be all right for 2 or 3 years with XP and Macs but what then?

What do you think Bob? How are your Linux chops?:)

If 80% of the world is running windows, and windows requires specific hardware to operate properly...

What do you folks think linux is going to run on exactly, that will be common enough for people to wanna develop for it?

[Mark Stebbeds]

I don't think MS can ignore the music industry by ignoring potential for DAWs in future OSs.
l

Oh I do. They could care less, as does Apple. The only audio they really care about is down loadable music in the form of MP3 or AAC, or whatever Apple calls the iPod format.

Mark

[Bill O'Connell]

With my luck, as soon as I switched back to a Mac, Apple would start requiring authorization of Tabby, or whatever cat-of-the-year OS is left. :rolleyes:

Regards,

Bill

[Bruce Callaway]

What do you folks think linux is going to run on exactly, that will be common enough for people to wanna develop for it?Linux runs on the same hardware as Windows, for example http://www.phoronix.com/lch/ . The major issue is device drivers and configuration.

[Tim Miskimon]

The problem with this is that as soon as MS stops support for it you only have XP as long as you don't need to reactivate or put it on a new system.

Windows 2000 is currently the last MS OS not needing activation for a new install. I think we're finally this year seeing software and hardware introductions which are not supporting Win2k though.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
I don't need any support from Microsoft - just reactivation codes which legally they can't deny me of them - I think if they try to stop giving activation codes they would face huge law suits from people like me.
It does not state anywhere in the operating manual that their Operating Systems come with an expiration date - therefore they must continue to give activation codes.
Boy they think people are using cracked software now - just wait till they try to pull that on the buying public.

[Tim Miskimon]

Hey, I thought the article looked familiar-it's the "stink bomb" I threw couple a weeks ago! Anyway, I agree with Steve's analysis- Linux is going to have to be it for us. No way you're gonna convince me Apple isn't going in on this B.S.too. We'll probably be all right for 2 or 3 years with XP and Macs but what then?

What do you think Bob? How are your Linux chops?:)

Several years ago Bob threw around the idea of selling SAW just as a turnkey system.
Originally that's one of the reasons I didn't jump right into SAW STUDIO - the other was that at that time SAWPRO was doing all I needed. I can't imagine not having SAW STUDIO now.
Anyway maybe that's what's in store for us in the future - a turnkey system with it's own OS.
If that were the case all I'd be using Windows for is the internet & word processing.

[AudioAstronomer]

Linux runs on the same hardware as Windows, for example http://www.phoronix.com/lch/ . The major issue is device drivers and configuration.

Err... Im a little familiar with linux :D

I think you're missing the point here. The Move in vista is towards hardware protection schemes. If you want to avoid them then you must not use windows XX.. problem being that most likely in the future the widest install base will be windows users who happily go along with it.

So when the time comes where 80% of users are merrily using the new hardware, who is going to wanna make powerful and usable products for an open source community? I think it would end up much like the days of the powerPC... and that was not a pleasant time.


Linux maybe the future now, but who knows what the future will be tomorrow.

[jazzboxmaker]

If 80% of the world is running windows, and windows requires specific hardware to operate properly...

What do you folks think linux is going to run on exactly, that will be common enough for people to wanna develop for it?

That is a problem cause the mfgr's will want to build the DRM configured hardware as the only flavor, they can stick all the crap in an onboard chip to avoid too much performance hit. I'm wondering if Vista causes too much trouble for corporate users, will they start to split off back towards Linux/Unix/Vax/Solaris or God knows what? This will create a demand for performance driven hardware that mfgr's may not want to ignore.

Also I agree- MS could not care less about DAW users- It's "Show Me The Money" and they ain't gettin it from us

Oh well, the sky didn't fall till I have to put on my reading glasses to see the Man in The Moon:eek:

[Bob L]

Everyone keeps asking me what I am going to do.... probably nothing right now... there is plenty of time to let the Vista dust settle before we all have to make drastic decisions about DAW futures.... the sky hasn't fallen yet... I say relax and enjoy your current SS system running efficiently in your current system. :)

Bob L

[Craig Allen]

I don't need any support from Microsoft - just reactivation codes which legally they can't deny me of them - I think if they try to stop giving activation codes they would face huge law suits from people like me.
It does not state anywhere in the operating manual that their Operating Systems come with an expiration date - therefore they must continue to give activation codes.
Boy they think people are using cracked software now - just wait till they try to pull that on the buying public.
They can too deny them - just as soon as they decide to call XP dead. It'll be a while, but I bet it will happen. And when it does, their lawyers will be better (paid) than yours...

[Craig Allen]

Everyone keeps asking me what I am going to do.... probably nothing right now... there is plenty of time to let the Vista dust settle before we all have to make drastic decisions about DAW futures.... the sky hasn't fallen yet... I say relax and enjoy your current SS system running efficiently in your current system. :)

Bob L
That's good advice - don't worry about it until it's a problem.

[bcorkery]

I'm still happy with 2K ... but I do miss "Safety Net"

:p

[Tree Leopard]

Here's a comment that wraps it up:


Think of it this way, if you have 1,000 lines of code, there are 1,000 lines that can be buggy. If you add a 1,000 line DRM infection, there are now 2,000 lines of code that can be buggy. Add that purpose of those 1,000 new lines is to break functionality, not enhance it, and you have a lose/lose situation.

The falsehood? More code can be more reliable than less code. A reliable piece of code is just that, anything added to it can not make it more reliable, only less so. Adding DRM infections is only a loss to the consumer, and there is no way around that one.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37091 (the link is also in the original article)

The real annoyance for developers is that MS are using every opportunity to place check points and toll booths on the road to 64bit computing. But Cakewalk are prepared to give it a go. The new Sonar 64 bit for Vista takes advantage of the new WaveRT driver and MMCSS (Multimedia Class Scheduler Service). That might be promising in itself but all things considered, it's going to be a bumpy ride. You could well end up with a situation where you have the same effective processing power but for double the price - after you have upgraded all software and hardware to cope with the increased loading on CPU and RAM. It will be interesting to see what pops up at the Cakewalk forum ...

But once the community hack, shred, dice and slice Vista (which is already in full swing) then we'll all have better idea of what we can / can't do. Remember that the result of this collective effort was very positive for XP - we found a way to make it very functional. So the days of this Virtual Berlin Wall might be numbered (I hope so). Or you could simply treat Vista like Windows ME - a transitional product.

Meanwhile, it seems that the corporate sector is in no rush to treat Vista as a serious option until SP1 comes out. Then it will take another year to deploy. So already that's 2-3 years down the road.

For now, we can relax and enjoy the ride with SAW. When you look at the options, heaven is a lot like where you are right now. :)

Andre

[Tree Leopard]

As for alternatives, I was thinking of what Steve said about JMS working with Ardour and remembered this - a new audio suite for Ubuntu slated for April release.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/MetapackagesBreakdown

FreeBoB Firewire project. Note that MOTU and RME are still resistant to developing Linux drivers for their FW products. But interesting to see that Metric Halo are coming to the party.
http://freebob.sourceforge.net/index.php/List_of_Supported_Devices

Andre

[Gerrysan]

Hi All
Peter Gutman was interviewed on the Gibson Research Corporation (http://www.grc.com/intro.htm) web site podcasts Here is the page (http://www.grc.com/SecurityNow.htm#76) What a pain this is going to turn out to be.
Cheers Gerry

[tomasino]

If it only were that easy as getting a Mac...
BUT it is enormously naive to me to think that Apple is the savior in this as they have an equal if not greater interest (considering their income from iTunes) in having their future systems be DRM compliant and for the DAW user, potentially crippled.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Totally agree. Mac is SO not the answer.
Especially being the king of end-to-end content management with iTunes-iPod.

The best way out is Open Source, Linux or Ubuntu or something. But then you alienate 90% of the user base.

The whole issue is a real canundrum (spelling?):confused:

[CurtZHP]

I think it's "conundrum."


Hey, we could always resurrect AMIGADOS!!!

:p

[tomasino]

I think it's "conundrum."
Hey, we could always resurrect AMIGADOS!!!
:p


K', read most of the article - got kind of silly after a while. He used "conundrum" in the first paragraph of the intro - woooord..

I agree with Bob, don't lose any sleep over this any time soon.

Seems like Vista is really a play for control of the "Media Center PC" in your living room and not even close to being ready for prime time. It's all on the consumer audio/video side of life. Vista will never fly this way. Especially in the face of the cable companies that are already corning the High-Def distribution arena. They're delivering HD content without any of these head aches and it's working.

If micro$oft wants to maintain any kind of a foot hold in the AV production arena, Vista won't fly AT ALL!!

[Cary B. Cornett]

Even if we were planning to use our current DAWs for 15 more years?:) How many 15-year-old PC's (or Macs) will still be operating? Would it even be possible to get compatible spare parts for a 15 year old computer?

That aspect, BTW, is one of the few advantages of analog tape machines, as there are 40+ year old machines out there that are still operable and maintainable. Not that I want to go back... ;)

[Mark Stebbeds]

How many 15-year-old PC's (or Macs) will still be operating? Would it even be possible to get compatible spare parts for a 15 year old computer?



I expect none.:)

I was making light of a recent thread were someone proposed that by avoiding Vista, one could keep his current SS rig up and running for 15 years by stocking up on discontinued motherboards and using an illegal OS found on eBay when MS support for XP re-activation stopped...and that was his plan.:)

Mark

[mghtx]

There's gonna be a major run of buying copies of XP. Already going on I suspect. Hell, even if I was interested in Vista, I'd wait at least a year/year and a half before going to it.

[Mark Stebbeds]

There's gonna be a major run of buying copies of XP. Already going on I suspect. Hell, even if I was interested in Vista, I'd wait at least a year/year and a half before going to it.

As many have stated, there is no point in rushing into Vista at first release, or until there is some advantage or need.

And if you don't have XP now, why bother to buy it at all?

Mark

[Tim Miskimon]

How many 15-year-old PC's (or Macs) will still be operating? Would it even be possible to get compatible spare parts for a 15 year old computer?

That aspect, BTW, is one of the few advantages of analog tape machines, as there are 40+ year old machines out there that are still operable and maintainable. Not that I want to go back... ;)

I have a 10 year old & a 7 year old PC - which both work great - but Windows 95 & ME suck compared to XP...:D

[Tim Miskimon]

I expect none.:)

I was making light of a recent thread were someone proposed that by avoiding Vista, one could keep his current SS rig up and running for 15 years by stocking up on discontinued motherboards and using an illegal OS found on eBay when MS support for XP re-activation stopped...and that was his plan.:)

Mark

I didn't make that statement but after reading all the negative crap about Vista it's starting to look like a good plan...:eek:

[Mark Stebbeds]

I didn't make that statement but after reading all the negative crap about Vista it's starting to look like a good plan...:eek:

In 15 years, it won't be Vista or XP, and all the DAW stuff we all use now will be outdated and unsupported. It's a good plan in our dreams, but it's not gonna happen.

Mark

[Tim Miskimon]

In 15 years, it won't be Vista or XP, and all the DAW stuff we all use now will be outdated and unsupported. It's a good plan in our dreams, but it's not gonna happen.

Mark

Yeah - I know that's why I ended with a :eek: .......;)
It seems like everyday I read another horror story about Vista.
The only good one I've read was by Gary Garritan in this month's EQ.
He starts out with a lot of the good things but as he's ending the article he brings up some of the draw backs.
Since they are releasing 4 versions maybe MS will wise up and create a version for DAW owners to get around all of the hassle - yet another dream....:eek:

[Oz Nimbus]

I wouldn't worry too much. No matter how much money MS throws at DRM, someone will come up with a workaround. It's the nature of the beast. I seem to remember DVD's were going to be 'uncrackable.' Yeah.... For how long, two weeks?

Meanwhile, if you don't like what MS is up to, vote with your dollars. Don't buy it. And while you're at it, don't buy BluRay/HD-DVD either!

-0z-

[TotalSonic]

I wouldn't worry too much. No matter how much money MS throws at DRM, someone will come up with a workaround. It's the nature of the beast. I seem to remember DVD's were going to be 'uncrackable.' Yeah.... For how long, two weeks?

Again the problem is that even if the built in DRM is cracked by hackers the DAW user will still have to deal with computers with the potential to run way way faster (i.e. more tracks, more plugs, more simultaneous processing and apps, and more stable performance) than what they currently do - BUT we won't be able to reach this DAW user's nirvana because the DRM code in the OS cripples the performance of the hardware!

I completely agree with Bob though that at that this point the best idea is to sit back - let other folks be guinea pigs for DAW apps on Vista first - see whether it is as bad as previews make it out to be or if it actually works fine - see what MS does in regard to support for XP or streamlining / bugfixing Vista - etc.

fwiw - all my DAW's are still running on Win2k though!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

Again the problem is that even if the built in DRM is cracked by hackers the DAW user will still have to deal with computers with the potential to run way way faster (i.e. more tracks, more plugs, more simultaneous processing and apps, and more stable performance) than what they currently do - BUT we won't be able to reach this DAW user's nirvana because the DRM code in the OS cripples the performance of the hardware!


Haven't you noticed that every windows build as progressively (steeply) gotten slower and slower? This isn't something new and has been a 'reason' to not upgrade to the newest windows version since windows 2.0

It's really fun to see history repeat itself over and over and over again... but it does get old. Each new windows version is doomsday because: Non of your apps, none of your hardware will work. Everything will be slower because you'll have to switch to new hardware. The system requirements are too beefy so something must be wrong. Windows is the devil and spies on everything you do. And last but not least, it's microsoft and they will screw it up any way possible.

We know already :D

[AcousticGlue]

Personally I'm thankful that the OS does the things it does. I believe it's hard to make everyone happy. My use of a computer at work is much different than at home. I have services that are started due to Helpdesk Control that I do not run at home. I have to run cranky apps at work but not at home. Other users are sometimes required to use other's machines at work. It still may be a stodgy OS but let's face it, if some people couldn't hook up their Adobe software or their Cameras or speak over Encrypted networks we would be in a far worse situation. Turn off what you don't need and be thankfulMicrosoft is there. Otherwise, you would all be using rpm's and junky drivers from every kid around the corner.

[Tim Miskimon]

Turn off what you don't need and be thankfulMicrosoft is there. Otherwise, you would all be using rpm's and junky drivers from every kid around the corner.

I am happy that Microsoft is there when they stick to what we need them for - which is to create a bug free OS.
I start bitching when they vary from that and start playing big brother - no thanks we don't need that!

[CurtZHP]

fwiw - all my DAW's are still running on Win2k though!




At the radio station where I work, we just switched a few critical machines in our automation system back to Windows 2000 from Windows XP because they just seemed to work better on the old OS.

[mghtx]

Haven't you noticed that every windows build as progressively (steeply) gotten slower and slower?.

Yes. So too with most other recording programs.


Windows is the devil and spies on everything you do. And last but not least, it's microsoft and they will screw it up any way possible.

Seems to be the case, no?

[bcorkery]

For all we know Vista may go the same route as the half-baked Millenium OS, I hated that one. And where is it now?

Rush to market!

[mghtx]

For all we know Vista may go the same route as the half-baked Millenium OS

No, they've put WAY too much time into it.

[antiClick]

Personally I'm thankful that the OS does the things it does. Otherwise, you would all be using rpm's and junky drivers from every kid around the corner.
Thanks to this "kids" there exists solid drivers for every well-stablished pro-audio soundcard in the Linux platform. (http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/index.php?vendor=vendor-RME)
Thanks to this "kids" this apps are evolving way faster than the closed-source ones, and still remain zero-paid. (http://ardour.org/)
Thanks to this "kids" that ARE CREATING free OS distributions specifically tuned for the DAW user. (http://ubuntustudio.org/)
Thanks to this "kids" they made such advanced tools that some top-of-the-line audio companies are turning they heads and start supporting it. (http://www.solid-state-logic.com/news/ardour_news.html)


You know... some capitalism schemmas are simply not valid. (http://polishlinux.org/gnu/drm-vista-and-your-rights/)
Time will tell

[brent]

No more tape... :(

What do ya' mean no more tape? Sure there is.

RMGI is making the Ampex formulas:
http://www.rmgi.nl

ATR Services manufacturers their own:
www.atrservice.com

You can still Quantegy until 02/07 from the factory.

[TotalSonic]

RMGI is making the Ampex formulas:
http://www.rmgi.nl

Brent is totally correct here that tape is continuing despite the Quantegy closing -
but just to be exact - RMGI is making tape using the Emtec formulations - Quantegy was the one making the Ampex stuff.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Craig Allen]

What do ya' mean no more tape? Sure there is.

RMGI is making the Ampex formulas:
http://www.rmgi.nl

ATR Services manufacturers their own:
www.atrservice.com

You can still Quantegy until 02/07 from the factory.
I know, but the supply is going to be less than before, which will make it more expensive. I should have said something like 'tape is going to be more expensive soon' to be more accurate. It was just a general comment about the state of the industry.

[Ian Alexander]

I have a 10 year old & a 7 year old PC - which both work great - but Windows 95 & ME suck compared to XP...:D
How do you get your ten year old to work? I have a 12 year old and a 14 year old. I can't get them to clean their rooms, unload the dishwasher, or take out the trash.:p

[Tim Miskimon]

How do you get your ten year old to work? I have a 12 year old and a 14 year old. I can't get them to clean their rooms, unload the dishwasher, or take out the trash.:p

:D GREAT ONE!:) :) :) :) :) :)

[Scott P]

I have a 1957 Chevy that runs great on any decent gas I put in it and I can get parts from any auto parts dealer. It has it's problems, but it starts every time I turn the key. I pay 1/3 of the price for inspection since it doesn't have to pass emissions (I live in Texas) and it doesn't have any whistles or bells to break. Of course I keep a few extra parts around in case something does break, because some parts are easier to find than others.

Altogether, it's pretty reliable. More so than my dad's minivan that will run a battery down in a week if it's not driven. (It's designed that way, really!)

The point?

Maybe I should buy a couple of extra PC's and assorted parts and make backup copies of my Win 2k O/S. At least I can weather the storm until Vista blows over. :D

hahaha....

s

PS; No it's not the only car I own. I do have a newer 2000 Ranger, but I still prefer the dinosaur.

[Perry]

I have a 1957 Chevy that runs great on any decent gas I put in it and I can get parts from any auto parts dealer. It has it's problems, but it starts every time I turn the key. I pay 1/3 of the price for inspection since it doesn't have to pass emissions (I live in Texas) and it doesn't have any whistles or bells to break. Of course I keep a few extra parts around in case something does break, because some parts are easier to find than others.

Altogether, it's pretty reliable. More so than my dad's minivan that will run a battery down in a week if it's not driven. (It's designed that way, really!)

The point?

Maybe I should buy a couple of extra PC's and assorted parts and make backup copies of my Win 2k O/S. At least I can weather the storm until Vista blows over. :D

hahaha....

s

PS; No it's not the only car I own. I do have a newer 2000 Ranger, but I still prefer the dinosaur.


I don't disagree with what you are saying.. but the problem will be I think that Vista isn't going to blow over. More likely it'll just get worse. That's the trend and it started really with XP... and the whole DRM thing is unlikely to go away. Whatever is next after Vista probably won't be an improvement for us.. and we'd most likely be lucky if it wasn't worse.

I don't know where this will ultimitly leave us DAW users... but at this point I don't see there's a lot we can do about the future as far as Microsoft is concerned; or Apple either for that matter.

In the short term though, hopefully there'll be some 'work around' or tweaks that will help... and we'll probably know soon enough about that as Vista has hit the streets now.

Perry

[AcousticGlue]

Anticlick, I won't argue with you. Are you using it (them)? I've ran into instability in the video drivers. Who you gonna call? Look at what Bob has to put up with with Windows. Now imagine that with every flavor out there of Linux. What if I don't want to use Red Hat or Suse or whatever? What if I don't want to use or afford RME? Questions are abundant. I see instabilities every day of Unix just like Windows. Solaris costs a handful of cash as well with proprietary hardware that they will only support. Are you ready to buy into that?

[Scott P]

I don't disagree with what you are saying.. but the problem will be I think that Vista isn't going to blow over. More likely it'll just get worse. That's the trend and it started really with XP... and the whole DRM thing is unlikely to go away. Whatever is next after Vista probably won't be an improvement for us.. and we'd most likely be lucky if it wasn't worse.

I don't know where this will ultimitly leave us DAW users... but at this point I don't see there's a lot we can do about the future as far as Microsoft is concerned; or Apple either for that matter.

In the short term though, hopefully there'll be some 'work around' or tweaks that will help... and we'll probably know soon enough about that as Vista has hit the streets now.

Perry



I agree, eventually, there will be a solution. I just want to make sure that until there is I can make a living. I don't know about most here, but I can't afford to be down several days because of an equipment fialure. I'm just happy to now have a couple of working DAWs in case one fails.

Also, I heard for a reliable source that the paper that started this thread has been "debunked". He claims that most of the information in it has been blown out of proportion. That's not to say that what is being proported will not eventually happen, but for the immediate future things won't likely change much.

scott

[Cary B. Cornett]

Also, I heard for a reliable source that the paper that started this thread has been "debunked". He claims that most of the information in it has been blown out of proportion. Debunked by whom? Link to source? Does the "debunker" have any connection with MS or their publicity folks? In the paper itself, near the end, there are some answers to counterclaims, and I frankly find the author of the paper FAR more convincing than any detractors of the paper. Note that this guy gains no monetary advantage by taking this position. As to one claim that this paper amounts to "FUD", that is HILARIOUS considering who the past masters of FUD are :eek: :p


That's not to say that what is being proported will not eventually happen, but for the immediate future things won't likely change much.
Microsoft's strategy is for the long haul, and if you carefully examine their past history and the consequences of past MS policy, you can see where it is going, and it is NOT to a good place (except for MS [ill gotten] profit picture). It will take a while for Vista to achieve full market penetration, but when it does a lot of us will be screwed unless some viable alternative come to the rescue. I wish we could be sure that ReactOS (http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html) would be ready soon enough...

[Perry]

I agree, eventually, there will be a solution. I just want to make sure that until there is I can make a living. I don't know about most here, but I can't afford to be down several days because of an equipment fialure. I'm just happy to now have a couple of working DAWs in case one fails.

Also, I heard for a reliable source that the paper that started this thread has been "debunked". He claims that most of the information in it has been blown out of proportion. That's not to say that what is being proported will not eventually happen, but for the immediate future things won't likely change much.

scott

Ummm.. well I certainly agree that having a couple of working DAWS is a great idea! And I'll stick with what I have now as far as a DAW goes... no need (yet at least) to move up to VISTA for that... thankfully.

But I'm not necessarily saying there will be a 'solution' as such.. not in the long term. I expect, and I have expected since the original release of XP and the direction that it indicated that MS was headed in, that things will continue to get worse... it's just a question of whether there will continue to be 'work arounds' and/or tweaks as time goes by and these things progress. Hopefully there will be... but it isn't a given IMO.

It may happen that DRM, for example, gets implimented even down to the hardware level... directly in the motherboard even. There's been talk of that. That may or may not happen, but the point is the 'industry', or at least the part of it that is interested in DRM, is dead serious about this.

The industry... the very foundation of how music (and movies) has been distributed... has been changing. The labels fear losing control over the $$$ that they once held with an iron clad fist. It used to be that they completely controled money from sales. Now they see others taking that from them.. and even.. gasp! ... independent sales! It's a lot like banks really.. they think that money is theirs.. not yours! And they think they have the right to do ANYTHING to protect it.

I remember once in the mid-60's having a studio/label guy explain how it works to me. :) He said the 'artist' makes his money from live shows. His implication was clear... don't expect 'us' (the label) to be giving you much money... if any!

They (most of them at least) have *always* felt this way... and it never changed. If records are sold.. that's *their* money. If they feel like it and you're nice to them.. they might give you a bit of 'their' money...maybe, or maybe not.

No doubt they still feel this way... it's 'their' money that is being taken away by internet sales, let alone illegal downloads. And they're going to do whatever they think it takes to keep from losing control over that money. Hence... DRM.

It's possible too that they might shoot themselves in the foot with Blu Ray and HD disks because of DRM and I've seen at least one computer magazine article in favor of NOT supporting these devices. This could trun out like the industry push for higher definition audio... an essentially non-event. The public is probably happy enough with current DVD quality... we'll have to wait and see how this pans out. But even if they didn't suceed with this, it doesn't mean they will give up.

When they get foiled at one thing.. they'll simply try something else. It's going to get ugly! It already has really. There's far too much money at stake... not to mention power (same thing you could say). MS and the rest of the industry WILL continue to do whatever they deem necessary to increase profits and to control 'digital rights' and they will most likely work hand in hand at it.

Back to VISTA.... One thing that VISTA has by the way that's going to have an impact in general is Direct X 10. This will probably be a big deal for gamers and as new games come out that rely on this it will spur sales in that arena in a big way most likely.

My understanding is that DX 10 won't be backwards compatible to XP... so there that is... you want (or need) DX 10 and it's VISTA or else. Resistance is futile.. or at least that's want they want us to believe. :)

In the meantime.. Better to be happy today I think. Happy SAWing!!! :)

Perry

[Scott P]

Debunked by whom? Link to source? Does the "debunker" have any connection with MS or their publicity folks? In the paper itself, near the end, there are some answers to counterclaims, and I frankly find the author of the paper FAR more convincing than any detractors of the paper. Note that this guy gains no monetary advantage by taking this position. As to one claim that this paper amounts to "FUD", that is HILARIOUS considering who the past masters of FUD are :eek: :p


Microsoft's strategy is for the long haul, and if you carefully examine their past history and the consequences of past MS policy, you can see where it is going, and it is NOT to a good place (except for MS [ill gotten] profit picture). It will take a while for Vista to achieve full market penetration, but when it does a lot of us will be screwed unless some viable alternative come to the rescue. I wish we could be sure that ReactOS (http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html) would be ready soon enough...


Apparently the paper made the rounds of some of the tech forums. I'm not familiar with them, that's not what I do. I'm a recording guy, not a computer guy. My sources words were "...it got posted on slashdot, digg and a
bunch of other technical blogs." I intend to check them out, but not right now. I'm about 2 weeks behind in my recording work and don't have the time.

I agree the guy that wrote the paper seems credible, but then so did a lot of "experts" that wrote doomsday papers about Y2K. Again, not that I'm saying the guy is totally wrong, just that this paper is the only one we've seen, and we've seen no counterclaims other than the ones he chooses to address.

I'm not at all trying to start a war over something I know little about. I simply think it's a good idea to check out what other people that deal with these issues every day have to say. I also think that a few precautions to get through to whatever the next step will be is a good idea.

Scott

[Scott P]

Ummm.. well I certainly agree that having a couple of working DAWS is a great idea! And I'll stick with what I have now as far as a DAW goes... no need (yet at least) to move up to VISTA for that... thankfully.

But I'm not necessarily saying there will be a 'solution' as such.. not in the long term. I expect, and I have expected since the original release of XP and the direction that it indicated that MS was headed in, that things will continue to get worse... it's just a question of whether there will continue to be 'work arounds' and/or tweaks as time goes by and these things progress. Hopefully there will be... but it isn't a given IMO. Perry


Back to VISTA.... One thing that VISTA has by the way that's going to have an impact in general is Direct X 10. This will probably be a big deal for gamers and as new games come out that rely on this it will spur sales in that arena in a big way most likely.

My understanding is that DX 10 won't be backwards compatible to XP... so there that is... you want (or need) DX 10 and it's VISTA or else. Resistance is futile.. or at least that's want they want us to believe. :)

In the meantime.. Better to be happy today I think. Happy SAWing!!! :)

Perry


Just to clarify, when I said a "solution" I simply meant a solution to being able to work and run a recording business. I would hate to see DAWs as we know them become obsolete for any reason unless it is in favor of something better. However, I'm reasonably certain that there will always be "solution" to working, though may not like it. Heck, I'll go back to tape in order to keep working, if I can get good tape.

There are still companies like Alesis and Fostex making stand alone recorders, and as expensive and un-automatable as they are, real hardware outboard gear still works.

It will likely be a painful transition, but I thik it's a transition not an end.

All I meant by a "solution" was in response the idea that the paper seems to invoke about DAWs going to go away as soon as Vista takes over the planet, starts a nuclear war and sends terminators back in time after its enemies. :D

Scott

[Perry]

Just to clarify, when I said a "solution" I simply meant a solution to being able to work and run a recording business. I would hate to see DAWs as we know them become obsolete for any reason unless it is in favor of something better. However, I'm reasonably certain that there will always be "solution" to working, though may not like it. Heck, I'll go back to tape in order to keep working, if I can get good tape.

There are still companies like Alesis and Fostex making stand alone recorders, and as expensive and un-automatable as they are, real hardware outboard gear still works.

It will likely be a painful transition, but I thik it's a transition not an end.

All I meant by a "solution" was in response the idea that the paper seems to invoke about DAWs going to go away as soon as Vista takes over the planet, starts a nuclear war and sends terminators back in time after its enemies. :D

Scott


Terminators!?!?! Oh no.. not those guys! :eek:

I really don't mean to ague with you Scott, if that's how it seems. I get your point. Yeah.. *somehow* we keep working! :D And that's a positive attitude to keep I think.

As to VISTA, I'm just keeping my eyes and ears open and waiting to see how things look once the dust settles a bit.

OTOH, I MIGHT put together a VISTA rig becuse of the direct X 10 support for new video games (I'm a totally addicted player for many years). DX 10 will add (supposedly) cool new effects for video games and bump the 'hollywood' quality up another notch.

And, who knows, when the dust settles and the kinks get ironed out, maybe it will even be a good thing for a DAW. I'm not going to hold my breath on that though... I'll just keep watching while others braver than me sort it out. ;)

Cheers,

Perry

[DominicPerry]

The only thing we can be happy about is that if things are really that bad, some mentallist will hack the hardware and bust it for us. A bit like when Intel put unique IDs into their CPUs and reported that they were turned off - but they weren't. If you are familiar with HAL, you'll know it stands for Hardware Abstraction Layer - It is low level code, loaded early in the boot process and used to make all hardware look pretty much the same to the OS. There's nothing to stop some 'kids' designing a HAL which breaks/shuts down/disguises the DRM hardware from the OS. You'll just have to run Linux on the top if it. Linux is not something I've ever personally supported as an entity for corporations - it has geek appeal but doesn't have the solidity of support and reliability which is required in the corporate world, but things they are a-changing, and Vista may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back for many specialist IT users, DAW users included. So hang on to your W2K, XP and current MoBos, and trust in Bob and all the other big brains out there that we are a market which will be catered for. Clever people don't like being pushed around.:)

Dominic

[AcousticGlue]

I ran into today a server running Windows 2003 R2 on Dual Opteron processors and the software we load had a 3rd shift guy confused because it loaded it into the Wow6432bit (or something) registry key instead of Software. These are the things that will be cropping up more and more. Why can't I effectively manage my OS but like guys are saying here. The whole industry is changing once again and we have to know how to produce results. I don't want to program and I hate command line but it is uesful at times to know some of this stuff. Some basic computer knowledge goes a long way.

Side Note: We have our own Unix'Linux guys and some people think they are a lot more intelligent than the Windows guys but even they say they can't keep their home PC up and running at times. Just the way it is.

[Scott P]

Terminators!?!?! Oh no.. not those guys! :eek:

I really don't mean to ague with you Scott, if that's how it seems. I get your point. Yeah.. *somehow* we keep working! :D And that's a positive attitude to keep I think.
Perry

I didn't think you were, but I also didn't think I made myself clear either. I'm still working on my correspondance skills. :)



As to VISTA, I'm just keeping my eyes and ears open and waiting to see how things look once the dust settles a bit.
Perry

I agree. That's what I'm doing. I have to admit that I'm curious to see how everything shakes out. I'm generally the last one to change an O/S anyway. I like to wait until at least the 3rd service pack. Besides, one never knows when an O/S will just die like Millenium did. Does anyone use that?



OTOH, I MIGHT put together a VISTA rig becuse of the direct X 10 support for new video games (I'm a totally addicted player for many years). DX 10 will add (supposedly) cool new effects for video games and bump the 'hollywood' quality up another notch.
Perry

I keep thinking someday I'll get into the whole gaming world. It's just never happened for me. Probably because I know I'd wind up a poor, homeless gaming addict after not getting any work done. :eek:

Scott

[Tim Miskimon]

Back to VISTA.... One thing that VISTA has by the way that's going to have an impact in general is Direct X 10. This will probably be a big deal for gamers and as new games come out that rely on this it will spur sales in that arena in a big way most likely.

My understanding is that DX 10 won't be backwards compatible to XP... so there that is... you want (or need) DX 10 and it's VISTA or else. Resistance is futile.. or at least that's want they want us to believe. :)

In the meantime.. Better to be happy today I think. Happy SAWing!!! :)

Perry

Isn't the recording community & plug in companies trying to get rid of direct X?
Is Microsoft hard headed or what?
I mean the trend over the past few years is that more & more companies are moving away from DX - so what's DX 10 all about...:confused:

[Perry]

Isn't the recording community & plug in companies trying to get rid of direct X?
Is Microsoft hard headed or what?
I mean the trend over the past few years is that more & more companies are moving away from DX - so what's DX 10 all about...:confused:

Games Tim.. games! :) It's about video in games, particularly the effects.. like explosions and stuff.... not audio as we usual think of it. And in that regards VISTA will likely be a must for serious gamers. Only the very newest (and very expensive!) video cards support DX 10 at this point and the next wave of games using DX 10 is still just around the bend. But when they arrive there will be a rush on VISTA by the PC gaming community... most likely.

All the best,

perry

[Perry]

I keep thinking someday I'll get into the whole gaming world. It's just never happened for me. Probably because I know I'd wind up a poor, homeless gaming addict after not getting any work done. :eek:

Scott

Maybe better not to! ;) Seriously... with some games once I start it becomes a full time thing until the end.. and then the expansion pack comes out! :eek: That just happened for me with F.E.A.R.... lots of late nights.. or rather early mornings. Almost impossible to quit.. it's like being in a mixture of a Bruce Willis and/or Terminator movie, with a little X-Files thrown in... and you get to be the main character. The graphics now (with newer.. and expensive.. video cards) are amazing. Movies are starting to be boring because you can't do anything except watch it unfold. With some of the games it's like being in the movie and you get to participate.

Anyway... it's great fun if you're into it.... can definitely take up some of your time though. Use caution.. or throw it to the wind! :rolleyes:

All the best,

perry

[ffarrell]

Ok my take is this. Apple / Microsoft are looking for the mass cash and keep moving towards ( mr. and mrs average Joe ) who want to push one switch and have the world happen. ( IE sreaming IpTV in HD, Voip, Video messageing, recording with friends like online jam sessions, and download all this to a Ipod to share with friends at work and school.)

We who use there OS's to run SAW will just need to :

1. Stay where we are. ( works for me )

2. Get a 2nd computer to do what every can't be done without Vista.

3. See if Bob ports over to Open Source. ( The Guy gets no sleep the way it is)


We've been here before with NT to 2K to XP and 10 years later we will still be here.

BUT for now lets all make music like are days are numbered. :)

Thanks
fvf

BTW

Even Digidesign uses a XP kernel for their live console and strip out all the fluff for stabilty. ( Not one crash in 2 years with now over 500 consoles running.)

[Cary B. Cornett]

It may happen that DRM, for example, gets implimented even down to the hardware level... directly in the motherboard even.
Microsoft makes clear in the standards that they have written that the REQUIRE hardware manufacturers to fully commit to the support of DRM, and there are definitely going to be increases in hardware manufacture and driver development costs as a result (this issues are specifically mentioned in the paper I cited). This will almost certainly affect motherboard design as well. If you were thinking about a near future computer upgrade, do it NOW before the consequences of Vista hit the hardware!

[Ian Alexander]

Isn't the recording community & plug in companies trying to get rid of direct X?
Is Microsoft hard headed or what?
I mean the trend over the past few years is that more & more companies are moving away from DX - so what's DX 10 all about...:confused:
The recording community is a wart on the back of the flea on the back of Microsoft's third dog. The two things that matter to Microsoft are the cubicle and the family room. They'd like to move into the living room. But we (audio/video) don't even appear on the radar. Not that MS is being mean. There just aren't many of us.

[Mark Stebbeds]

Isn't the recording community & plug in companies trying to get rid of direct X?
Is Microsoft hard headed or what?


I think Microsoft is building for the other hundreds of millions of other business and consumer level users, and don't care one iota about a handful of audio guys, especially since the pro audio business is largely built on the Mac OS.

If all audio guys stopped using MS products tomorrow, they wouldn't even notice.

Several years ago when I was contracted to MS on an audio project, their studios in Redmond used Pro Tools on a Mac.

Mark

[Tim Miskimon]

The recording community is a wart on the back of the flea on the back of Microsoft's third dog. The two things that matter to Microsoft are the cubicle and the family room. They'd like to move into the living room. But we (audio/video) don't even appear on the radar. Not that MS is being mean. There just aren't many of us.

Well I guess if we look at it that way we shouldn't give a **** about MS either....

[Perry]

........ If you were thinking about a near future computer upgrade, do it NOW before the consequences of Vista hit the hardware!

Actually I am.. and I think I will! :)

Thanks Cary

[DominicPerry]

Before anyone rushes in, is any of this DRM hardware out there yet?

Dominic

[Ian Alexander]

Well I guess if we look at it that way we shouldn't give a **** about MS either....
Quite right, unless you want to run SawStudio.:D

[antiClick]

I wouldn't worry too much. No matter how much money MS throws at DRM, someone will come up with a workaround. It's the nature of the beast. I seem to remember DVD's were going to be 'uncrackable.' Yeah.... For how long, two weeks?

Meanwhile, if you don't like what MS is up to, vote with your dollars. Don't buy it. And while you're at it, don't buy BluRay/HD-DVD either!

-0z-

The problem are the laws surrounding that DRM restrictions.
If this laws are approved (I think that USA already did it -called DMCA-), it will turn any device that doesn't support DRM into ILLEGAL.

This fact actually blocks the development of every appplication that doesn't support DRM.
This will probably kill almost every open source alternative project (or at least turn it into piracy :eek:)
www.ubuntustudio.com (http://www.ubuntustudio.com/) born as dead? :(


You can sit and wait till this laws kill open software, but then we will complain a lot.
Oh, corporations! :mad:

Please sign this petition to Bono (U2): http://www.defectivebydesign.org/en/forward/380

[Perry]

The problem are the laws surrounding that DRM restrictions.
If this laws are approved (I think that USA already did it -called DMCA-), it will turn any device that doesn't support DRM into ILLEGAL.

This fact actually blocks the development of every appplication that doesn't support DRM.
This will probably kill almost every open source alternative project (or at least turn it into piracy :eek:)
www.ubuntustudio.com (http://www.ubuntustudio.com/) born as dead? :(


You can sit and wait till this laws kill open software, but then we will complain a lot.
Oh, corporations! :mad:

Please sign this petition to Bono (U2): http://www.defectivebydesign.org/en/forward/380

I've been reading about this whole thing for a long time. One of the mags I read, Max PC, has been following it from quite a while ago. They're firmly (and strongly) against the current stand on this move from the industry and advice staying away from BluRay and DVD HD... for now.

This is most likely going to happen regardless though. And it may become the new "Prohibition" in the long run... it's going to create a LOT of 'criminals'.

It's a bit like those 'Cyberpunk' books and movies form a while back... devices that are 'free' from this will be illegal.. and any that use them will be criminals.

It seems that bit of Sci-fi is catching up to use all too fast.

AS far as I know from what I've read... EVERY piece of hardware will eventually have to be compliant in order to use these new players at the highest digital resolutions. That means monitor and all. So your current LCD even is probably not compliant. Newer ones out now are (I think) mostly compliant... but this means there are a lot of expensive items sold (and still being sold) where customers are not aware that there will be a problem.

I think the general consensus among the industry is that this is their only hope of putting a lid on things and controling there interests.

US Daw users? I think we're just collateral damage mostly. No real concern to the big corps I'd think. They're the Corps; we're just the corpse.

Perry

cy·ber·punk –noun
1. science fiction featuring extensive human interaction with supercomputers and a punk ambiance.
2. Slang. a computer hacker.
[Origin: 1985–90; cyber(netic) + punk2]

cyberpunk noun
1. a programmer who breaks into computer systems in order to steal or change or destroy information as a form of cyber-terrorism [syn: hacker]
2. a writer of science fiction set in a lawless subculture of an oppressive society dominated by computer technology
3. a genre of fast-paced science fiction involving oppressive futuristic computerized societies

WordNet® 2.1, © 2005 Princeton University


American Heritage Dictionary -
pro·hi·bi·tion (pr***333;'***601;-b***301;sh'***601;n)
n.

1. The act of prohibiting or the condition of being prohibited.
2. A law, order, or decree that forbids something.
3.
1. The forbidding by law of the manufacture, transportation, sale, and possession of alcoholic beverages.
2. Prohibition The period (1920-1933) during which the 18th Amendment forbidding the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages was in force in the United States.

[Oz Nimbus]

. They're firmly (and strongly) against the current stand on this move from the industry and advice staying away from BluRay and DVD HD... for now.




Yeah, my favourite part of the BluRay/HD-DVD scam is that if a particular model is hacked, any disc manufactured post-hack can have a "disable flag" embedded in it which means it won't play in that model. Sucks to be you if you just bought one. Oh well, shell out another grand for a different one... I'm sure the manufacturers really need the money!


I've had many people ask me about the new players & I always say the same thing: "These are a bad idea. They're going to go the way of DAT & Divx (the players, not the codec). Buy an upsampling DVD player & save your money."

[Tim Miskimon]

It's a shame that we keep getting fed all these new, temporary moving formats when we should be going straight to storage without any moving parts.
That is truely the way things are going to be in the future and I am not convinced that we aren't there already.
Just like the technology was there years ago for cheap hard drives with GBs of storage space but we were being sold expensive hard drives with MBs of storage space instead.
I remember a friend of mine from Germany who built computers for the government told me back in the mid 90s that they were cheating us by selling us hard drives for so much money & so little storage space - he said it was all a scam and now I totally believe he was right.
All this stuff like blue tooth is just another way to get our money without offering us anything that won't be obsolete in a few years.
I think I'll be staying with standard CDs & DVDs until we finally make the move to non-moving parts media.
There's no more room in my closet for obsolete formats - it's full of 8-track, cassette, Beta, VHS, Dat, Adat players and old computers already. I could open a museum in there...:eek:

[conleec]

While I certainly have no interest whatsoever in installing Vista at this time, I think most of us have very little to worry about with regards to our livelihoods and/or hobbies. The outputs will only be controlled by Vista when dealing with "premium" or "protected" content. Since we're dealing with our own creations, it won't be an issue.

Also, since SS is so efficient, we can keep a PC dedicated to running SS forever, even if in 5 or 6 years we're forced to buy a Vista pc. It's really a non-issue, as far as I'm concerned.

Chris

[Perry]

Yeah, my favourite part of the BluRay/HD-DVD scam is that if a particular model is hacked, any disc manufactured post-hack can have a "disable flag" embedded in it which means it won't play in that model. Sucks to be you if you just bought one. Oh well, shell out another grand for a different one... I'm sure the manufacturers really need the money!


I've had many people ask me about the new players & I always say the same thing: "These are a bad idea. They're going to go the way of DAT & Divx (the players, not the codec). Buy an upsampling DVD player & save your money."

Yep... that's bad mojo alright!

There's a poster at the Soundscape forum with another view on VISTA stuff to worry about ( "unsigned drivers" and "defender" ) and a link to a review/article at BBC. The article is short and in layman terms and worth a read for anyone intersested in this topic..

Copied from the Soundscape Mixtreme forum:

Vincent, 3 Feb, 22:02

TOPIC: Vista... drawbacks

There is a topic about Mixtreme and Vista and 64 bit drivers, and I thought I'd start this to read opinions about Vista.

Personally, I'm in no hurry to upgrade. I've just been through the hoops of building a new PC and changing my main MIDI interface (no parallel port on new PC) and giving up on SCSI, I'm in no hurry to upset all my system again.

However, I am also concerned about Vista itseld.

There is the DRM stuff that takes control away from the user and unprecendented breaches of privacy. ("Defender"). All this is compounded by the license agreement.

In the 64 bit versions, you cannot even "continue anyway" to install "unsigned" drivers. This means that the Sydec tradition of coming up with new driver versions quickly to sort out a particular problem. Instead the developers have to jump through Microsoft hoops and certainly spend money for each driver tht is released.

My interest in Soundscape has always largely been that it protects me from the inconveniences of a constantly changing platform - the PC platform - where something always needs to be updated/upgraded (and in the past nothing ever worked 100% right). The opposite of stability and peace of mind!

With Vista, the 64bit version in particular, it seems that Microsoft is going in a dangerous direction.

Perhaps eventually Microsoft will refuse to certify drivers that allow hardware to be installed that does what native software can do... like Soundscape or Pro Tools hardware?

That would be some business plan for Microsoft to take other digital production.

I know that Tom likes it though.

Vincent, 3 Feb, 22:09 Soundscape Expert


It's not just me being concerned. Check this out:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6319845.stm

Extracts:

> Vista gives a view of a new world
Internet law professor Michael Geist casts an eye over the fine print in Windows Vista and is concerned at what he finds.

> Vista also incorporates Windows Defender, a security program that actively scans computers for "spyware, adware, and other potentially unwanted software". The agreement does not define any of these terms, leaving it to Microsoft to determine what constitutes unwanted software.

Once operational, the agreement warns that Windows Defender will, by default, automatically remove software rated "high" or "severe" even though that may result in other software ceasing to work or mistakenly result in the removal of software that is not unwanted.

For greater certainty, the terms and conditions remove any doubt about who is in control by providing that "this agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights".

Read more in the BBC article.

Regarding the restrictions on "unsigned" drivers in the 64 bit version, it's mentioned in the current issue of Sound On Sound, by PC specialist Martin Walker.

*****************

Perry :(

[DominicPerry]

Unexpected support for scrapping DRM from Mr Jobs...........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6337275.stm

[Tree Leopard]

.. But once the community hack, shred, dice and slice Vista (which is already in full swing) then we'll all have better idea of what we can / can't do. Remember that the result of this collective effort was very positive for XP - we found a way to make it very functional ...

Exhibit #1:
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/01/29/vista_drm_cracked.html

Andre

[antiClick]

Exhibit #1:
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/01/29/vista_drm_cracked.html

Andre

Hope the US laws can be cracked also :rolleyes:

[Perry]

Unexpected support for scrapping DRM from Mr Jobs...........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6337275.stm

Interesting! Just read this... Thanks for the link.

Well.. we'll see. Maybe the industry will realize that they can actually sell more product (and make $$$) by making it easier on consumers to use what they buy.... What a concept eh? :rolleyes:

Perry

[TotalSonic]

Interesting! Just read this... Thanks for the link.

Well.. we'll see. Maybe the industry will realize that they can actually sell more product (and make $$$) by making it easier on consumers to use what they buy.... What a concept eh? :rolleyes:

Perry

I think some recent background regarding this public letter from Jobs is in order.

So - we get a really nice feel good speech from Steve Jobs regarding getting rid of DRM. Now - I whole heartedly agree with him regarding this - as Windows Vista makes all too painfully obvious as the extensive DRM coding within it makes what could have been a breakthrough in speed in computng instead is a crippled and bloated OS that as it exists now. HOWEVER - I think his announcement is more PR based on how many people have some awfully short memories. One of the most commonly used DRM infections was CREATED BY APPLE - i.e. "Fairplay". Now Mr. Jobs might try and make you think that, boy, they hated to do it but those big ol' bad Major Labels made 'em do it- but this would be naive. It was a cooperative effort. Apple invested, the major labels provided content, and Apple won the majority of the profits via the way they always have - not by selling content (or software for that matter) but by selling hardware - i.e. the iPod. So all's fair and square in love and capitalism.

BUT - those weirdo socialists from Norway just dropped a bomb on Apple just a few weeks ago:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070125/tc_nm/apple_itunes_norwa y_dc_1


Norway tells Apple change iTunes or face court
By Terje Solsvik and Wojciech Moskwa Thu Jan 25, 10:57 AM ET
OSLO (Reuters) - Norway stepped up its battle with Apple Computer Inc.'s (Nasdaq:AAPL - news) iTunes on Thursday when its consumer ombudsman said the software giant must open access to its music download system by October 1 or face legal action.

Last June, Norway's powerful ombudsman said iTunes violated Norwegian law by forcing consumers to play their downloaded music on Apple's iPod music player -- a landmark decision which prompted other European countries to review the situation.

"They must make iTunes music compatible with other players than the iPod by the end of September, or we will take them to court," the ombudsman, Bjoern Erik Thon, told Reuters.

"ITunes is imposing unreasonable and unbalanced restrictions that are not in accordance with Norwegian law."

He said the courts could impose fines on iTunes until songs downloaded through iTunes could be played on rival devices to the popular iPod.

The case would first be handled by Norway's Market Council, a special legal body that has the power to demand changes to contract clauses that are found to be unreasonable. If appealed, the case would move on to the ordinary courts.

Pressure on Apple is building, with consumer rights organizations from Germany, France, Finland and Norway this week agreeing a joint position in their battles against iTunes.

They argue that Apple uses digital rights technology to limit consumers' free use of songs bought on iTunes, including the ability to copy and transfer songs to other users and other MP3 devices besides the Apple iPod.

"We believe consumers have a right to play material purchased online on a portable device of their own choice. Contract clauses that make this impossible or too inconvenient are unfair and should be revoked," the organizations said in a joint statement announcing their cooperation.

Apple's lawyer in Oslo declined comment and the company's London-based spokesman was not immediately available for comment.

SO - Jobs realizing that with all the negative press Windows Vista is receiving regarding it's crapacious DRM implementations - and the fact that Apple is going to face a doo-doo storm in the EU soon anyway regarding their own DRM infections - does the genius thing and pre-empts it all by coming out as a hippie good guy who just wants free stuff for everyone. MS continues to shoot itself in the foot and releases a ridiculously worthless OS - and people naively think that Apple will be their savior.

Sorry to be so cynical about this - and I do in fact for the most part Jobs is very sincere in his letter - but it's important to know the facts behind this and also acknowledge that there is indeed some "spin" in all of this too.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Perry]

I think some recent background regarding this public letter from Jobs is in order.

So - we get a really nice feel good speech from Steve Jobs regarding getting rid of DRM. Now - I whole heartedly agree with him regarding this - as Windows Vista makes all too painfully obvious as the extensive DRM coding within it makes what could have been a breakthrough in speed in computng instead is a crippled and bloated OS that as it exists now. HOWEVER - I think his announcement is more PR based on how many people have some awfully short memories. One of the most commonly used DRM infections was CREATED BY APPLE - i.e. "Fairplay". Now Mr. Jobs might try and make you think that, boy, they hated to do it but those big ol' bad Major Labels made 'em do it- but this would be naive. It was a cooperative effort. Apple invested, the major labels provided content, and Apple won the majority of the profits via the way they always have - not by selling content (or software for that matter) but by selling hardware - i.e. the iPod. So all's fair and square in love and capitalism.

BUT - those weirdo socialists from Norway just dropped a bomb on Apple just a few weeks ago:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070125/tc_nm/apple_itunes_norwa y_dc_1


Norway tells Apple change iTunes or face court
By Terje Solsvik and Wojciech Moskwa Thu Jan 25, 10:57 AM ET
OSLO (Reuters) - Norway stepped up its battle with Apple Computer Inc.'s (Nasdaq:AAPL - news) iTunes on Thursday when its consumer ombudsman said the software giant must open access to its music download system by October 1 or face legal action.

Last June, Norway's powerful ombudsman said iTunes violated Norwegian law by forcing consumers to play their downloaded music on Apple's iPod music player -- a landmark decision which prompted other European countries to review the situation.

"They must make iTunes music compatible with other players than the iPod by the end of September, or we will take them to court," the ombudsman, Bjoern Erik Thon, told Reuters.

"ITunes is imposing unreasonable and unbalanced restrictions that are not in accordance with Norwegian law."

He said the courts could impose fines on iTunes until songs downloaded through iTunes could be played on rival devices to the popular iPod.

The case would first be handled by Norway's Market Council, a special legal body that has the power to demand changes to contract clauses that are found to be unreasonable. If appealed, the case would move on to the ordinary courts.

Pressure on Apple is building, with consumer rights organizations from Germany, France, Finland and Norway this week agreeing a joint position in their battles against iTunes.

They argue that Apple uses digital rights technology to limit consumers' free use of songs bought on iTunes, including the ability to copy and transfer songs to other users and other MP3 devices besides the Apple iPod.

"We believe consumers have a right to play material purchased online on a portable device of their own choice. Contract clauses that make this impossible or too inconvenient are unfair and should be revoked," the organizations said in a joint statement announcing their cooperation.

Apple's lawyer in Oslo declined comment and the company's London-based spokesman was not immediately available for comment.

SO - Jobs realizing that with all the negative press Windows Vista is receiving regarding it's crapacious DRM implementations - and the fact that Apple is going to face a doo-doo storm in the EU soon anyway regarding their own DRM infections - does the genius thing and pre-empts it all by coming out as a hippie good guy who just wants free stuff for everyone. MS continues to shoot itself in the foot and releases a ridiculously worthless OS - and people naively think that Apple will be their savior.

Sorry to be so cynical about this - and I do in fact for the most part Jobs is very sincere in his letter - but it's important to know the facts behind this and also acknowledge that there is indeed some "spin" in all of this too.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Of course! :) I didn't for a moment think that there wasn't more to it. But you're right .. things are rarely as they at first seem... at least on this planet. :rolleyes: Everyone has their own agenda usually... or really always!

At least though he's agreeing with what some of us think would be a good idea... or so it seems. ;)

Thanks for the additional info Steve! :)

All the best,

Perry

[antiClick]

SO - Jobs realizing that with all the negative press Windows Vista is receiving regarding it's crapacious DRM implementations - and the fact that Apple is going to face a doo-doo storm in the EU soon anyway regarding their own DRM infections - does the genius thing and pre-empts it all by coming out as a hippie good guy who just wants free stuff for everyone. MS continues to shoot itself in the foot and releases a ridiculously worthless OS - and people naively think that Apple will be their savior.


Yes, this is very very cumbersome! :rolleyes: