Beta PCM Audio Transfer

[Bob L]

I have a client with a Beta PCM audio tape recording done in the late 80s... he is trying to transfer the data to harddrive so we can edit and create a finished CD.

Anyone know of a good place to get this transferred? I am not sure of the exact recording format... and how many different PCM audio formats there were that did audio direct to Beta tape.

Anyone familiar with this process?

Bob L

[Jon Stoll]

Hi Bob,

If these are BETA tapes they were undoubtedly recorded via a Sony PCM 701 or equivalent converter. I made many recordings that way in the 80s and early 90s. The clock on these units was either 44.1 or 48K (not sure, I have to dig out the manual). The resolution was switchable between 14 and 16 bit. I usually transfer these tapes in analog via the RME converter to get them into SS. If you wish, I could do the transferring for you.

Regards,
Jon Stoll

[Mark Stebbeds]

I have a client with a Beta PCM audio tape recording done in the late 80s... he is trying to transfer the data to harddrive so we can edit and create a finished CD.

Anyone know of a good place to get this transferred? I am not sure of the exact recording format... and how many different PCM audio formats there were that did audio direct to Beta tape.

Anyone familiar with this process?

Bob L

I have a vague recollection of a Sony digital recording device called a PCM-F1 or F10, or something like that. The Beta or VHS VCR was used as the media. So you need to find both, methinks.

Mark

[demodoc]

We used a PCM F-1 tp record our radio shows in the early '80's. I belive the sampling rate was actually 44.056!! I'm sure this can be Googled to be sure.:)

[TotalSonic]

If it's on Beta and not 3/4" Umatic (or VHS for a prosumer format by Technics) then it's the Sony PCM F1 format - they used the Sony SL-2000 Betamax VCR transport.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCM_adaptor

These tend to be archival nightmares prone to dropouts and errors - but there are indeed a few studios that still have these in their racks for occasional transfer requests such as yours.

I believe my friend Tom Dimuzio of Gench Mastering in San Francisco might still have one, and he definitely is someone who takes care of his equipment and pays attention to detail plus has reasonable rates so you might want to email him at mastering@gench.com

Otherwise doing a Google search for "mastering equipment Sony PCM F1" returned a good number of studios still listing it in their equipment lists.

Best regards,
steve Berson

[Scott P]

Wow.. I wondered how many of those things were still around. :D

I still have one here myself that I haven't used in many years, but I'm sure it still works.

Mine is an outboard converter that records to any video format. I think you could use the Hi-Fi tracks for backup as well. Worked pretty good from what I rmeember.

Scott

[Bob L]

Thanks to all... we will now do the searchs and see what we come up with.

Bob L

[TotalSonic]

Wow.. I wondered how many of those things were still around. :D

Well - a number of smaller sailing vessels are now using the PCM1610 as boat anchors ;)

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Mark Stebbeds]

Well - a number of smaller sailing vessels are now using the PCM1610 as boat anchors ;)


It wasn't that long ago that Sony/Columbia Records was still requiring using the 1630 for mastering for archival reasons. I guess they wanted consistency in their vault.

Mark

[TotalSonic]

It wasn't that long ago that Sony/Columbia Records was still requiring using the 1630 for mastering for archival reasons. I guess they wanted consistency in their vault.

Mark

Yeah - and then they discovered that the Umatics had a shelf life of about the length of an average New York stock broker's lunch. ummm... reverse that memo, please.

When I was working as a production assistant when I first started at Europadisk I could always tell when the engineer was transferring 1630's from the amount of curse words spewing from his mouth due to the drop out problems they nearly always had. Honestly I'm really glad to see that particular format be pretty much over with.

Anyway - if anyone still has mixes or masters on PCM1630 or other Umatic PCM formats I would advise backing them up to hard drive or optical disc as soon as you can.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Tim Miskimon]

I have a client with a Beta PCM audio tape recording done in the late 80s... he is trying to transfer the data to harddrive so we can edit and create a finished CD.

Anyone know of a good place to get this transferred? I am not sure of the exact recording format... and how many different PCM audio formats there were that did audio direct to Beta tape.

Anyone familiar with this process?

Bob L

I actually have a Sony 501 that I use to use with a Sony Beta deck.
The digital signal was stored on the video track.
It ran at 44.056K at either 14 or 16 bit.
The problem with the one I have is it doesn't have digital outs and those old F-1 converters were really brittle sounding.
I would suggest trying to track down a Sony 701 which I believe has digital ouputs.
I bought this unit in the mid 80s and used it until about 1991 when I got a DAT machine - another digital nightmare....:eek:

[Bob L]

Was the recording format the same between all these units... or would we need to find the exact unit that was used to record the original project?

Bob L

[Scott P]

I just looked, mine's a 501 (501-ES) as well and doesn't have digital outs.

Good luck Bob.
Scott

[sebastiandybing]

I also think you need to use the pcm701 because the left and right
bit stream where send as one stream to the beta tape.
As I remember the pcm701 can take out every secound sample and delay
it 1 sample.

Sebastian

[ldg888]

I have two PCM-601ESD units that have digital outs......I think the these were the last units in the series.
I also have several Beta decks and would be glad to transfer the tape CD or hard drive for the cost of postage both ways !!

LD

[Bob L]

LD,

Thanks... I will pass on that offer to my client... so it seems that all these units should be able to read the data... that's great.

Bob L

[Tree Leopard]

Anyway - if anyone still has mixes or masters on PCM1630 or other Umatic PCM formats I would advise backing them up to hard drive or optical disc as soon as you can.Steve,

- If a CD master or even a ref disk / DAT exists, are there any particular advantages in archiving (or attempting to) direct from the original Umatic master / PQ tape? In other words, do you think error rates in CD / DAT technology in the late 80s early 90s would justify the effort to extract the data direct from Umatic tape?

- If a Umatic tape made in the early 1990s was stored properly in a temperature controlled room, how many stockbrokers lunches is that?

- Which Sony units were stationary / rotary head? I remember many arguments about which was the better mechanism.

Andre

[TotalSonic]

Steve,

- If a CD master or even a ref disk / DAT exists, are there any particular advantages in archiving (or attempting to) direct from the original Umatic master / PQ tape? In other words, do you think error rates in CD / DAT technology in the late 80s early 90s would justify the effort to extract the data direct from Umatic tape?

Probably not. To me the only reason to do an urgent transfer would be if the data was backed up only to Umatic.



- If a Umatic tape made in the early 1990s was stored properly in a temperature controlled room, how many stockbrokers lunches is that?

Hee hee - it's impossible to say. A tape might play back great with no problems - but I personally have no confidence in the format. To me if a format has something like a 5% incidence of failure it can not be considered worthy of "archiving"!



- Which Sony units were stationary / rotary head? I remember many arguments about which was the better mechanism.


I really don't know, I started working in mastering studios as the format was being phased out in favor of PMCD, so I didn't really pay attention much to these. The DMR-4000 was the Umatic transport that was used most for CD mastering with the PCM 1630 and was generally considered the best out of all the Umatic transports though.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Jon Stoll]

It ran at 44.056K at either 14 or 16 bit.

This is true with the 701, and I think it is also true for the 501 and F1.



I would suggest trying to track down a Sony 701 which I believe has digital ouputs.

I have a 701 and searched the manual. Unfortunately, there are no digital outs on this unit. I believe that all of the PCM converters of that period that recorded on the video track of a VCR used the same format and will play back on any them. Please correct if this is wrong.

[ldg888]

The service manual for my PCM-601ESD units says that the sample frequency is 44.1.......
LD

[studio-c]

Wow, I just had a flashback of working with these at a music library (Network Music) back in the 80s. PITA for sure, and an 80 thousand dollar two track... And editing? Fuggedaboudit. Also used the Synclavier with Winchester hard drives that probably held as much as my phone's memory chip... LOL... Used to do sequencing with some arcane process, this was pre-midi. You used sounds like PacMan effects to get your drum beats placed, then had the samples replaced with real drum samples in an overnight process. NED didn't believe midi was going to be an acceptable solution for digital music, not exact enough, so they shunned it. When they did come up with a midi interface, I think it cost twenty grand or something obscene.

We have it soooooooooooo good now.

Cheers,
Scott

[Mogers]

I also think you need to use the pcm701 because the left and right
bit stream where send as one stream to the beta tape.
As I remember the pcm701 can take out every secound sample and delay
it 1 sample.

Sebastian

The PCM701 (and some of the other Sony F1 format devices) had one A/D converter. This was done to cut costs, as it was originally supposed to be a domestic format. This A/D would effectively run at 88.2kHz, taking a sample from the left channel, followed by a sample from the right channel, then the left channel etc.

When you played back, it had one D/A converter, which did the same thing, giving you correctly synced analogue output.

No problem, if all you were doing was recording and playing back in your own Beta/F1 world. But if you wanted to transfer anything to a system where samples were supposed to be simultaneous, then you have to do something about it. Practically speaking this was only when mono compatibility mattered, as 1/88,200 of a second delay is the equivalent of moving your head less than a millimeter.

A company in the UK called Audio+Design made a modified 701 (which I still have and still works) that had a feature called Coincident Time Correction (CTC) - this was basically an analogue delay line that delayed one incoming analogue signal by one 88,200th of a second before it hit the A/D. A similar delay was put on the D/A side. Recordings made using CTC would transfer digitally without needing correction.

It's very easy to use SAW Studio to correct non-CTC'd recordings. Just load in at 44.1kHz as 2 mono files on 2 tracks, set the SS sample rate to 88.2kHz, slide the relevant track by 1 sample, and build mix back to 44.1kHz using the in-built sample rate converter.

On digital inputs/outputs: the unmodified 701 didn't have any digital connections. The Audio+Design modified 701 doesn't have S/PDIF digital connections (RCA/Phono) but does have SDIF-2 (3 x BNC connector for Left, Right and WordClock). Virtually nothing these days has SDIF-2 interfaces - so it's quite hard to do digital transfers.

Sample rates: if you used an NTSC Betamax deck, then the sample rate was 44.056kHz (picture frame rate was 29.97fps). If you used a PAL/SECAM Betamax deck, then the sample rate was 44.1kHz (picture frame rate 25fps).

I had to do some transfers a few months back from 20 year old PAL Betamax tapes, and was amazed how painless it was. Dug the old Betamax SL-C7 deck from the loft, cleaned the heads, hooked up to the 701 and it worked a treat. The Audio+Design 701 has error correction lights, and in about 4 hours of transfers I didn't have one uncorrected error. I had to use the internal D/A as I don't have anything with SDIF-2 capabilities, but it didn't sound too bad - a bit harsh, perhaps, but quite acceptable.

cheers
Mark

[Bob L]

More interesting information. Thanks.

Bob L

[Carl G.]

Wow, I just had a flashback of working with these at a music library (Network Music) back in the 80s. PITA for sure, and an 80 thousand dollar two track... And editing? Fuggedaboudit.
Cheers,
Scott

Scott,
Did you work at Network Music?
Some of the best Editing - Music recording I've ever heard.
I've used them for over 17 years now.

[Tim Miskimon]

The PCM701 (and some of the other Sony F1 format devices) had one A/D converter. This was done to cut costs, as it was originally supposed to be a domestic format. This A/D would effectively run at 88.2kHz, taking a sample from the left channel, followed by a sample from the right channel, then the left channel etc.

When you played back, it had one D/A converter, which did the same thing, giving you correctly synced analogue output.

No problem, if all you were doing was recording and playing back in your own Beta/F1 world. But if you wanted to transfer anything to a system where samples were supposed to be simultaneous, then you have to do something about it. Practically speaking this was only when mono compatibility mattered, as 1/88,200 of a second delay is the equivalent of moving your head less than a millimeter.

A company in the UK called Audio+Design made a modified 701 (which I still have and still works) that had a feature called Coincident Time Correction (CTC) - this was basically an analogue delay line that delayed one incoming analogue signal by one 88,200th of a second before it hit the A/D. A similar delay was put on the D/A side. Recordings made using CTC would transfer digitally without needing correction.

It's very easy to use SAW Studio to correct non-CTC'd recordings. Just load in at 44.1kHz as 2 mono files on 2 tracks, set the SS sample rate to 88.2kHz, slide the relevant track by 1 sample, and build mix back to 44.1kHz using the in-built sample rate converter.

On digital inputs/outputs: the unmodified 701 didn't have any digital connections. The Audio+Design modified 701 doesn't have S/PDIF digital connections (RCA/Phono) but does have SDIF-2 (3 x BNC connector for Left, Right and WordClock). Virtually nothing these days has SDIF-2 interfaces - so it's quite hard to do digital transfers.

Sample rates: if you used an NTSC Betamax deck, then the sample rate was 44.056kHz (picture frame rate was 29.97fps). If you used a PAL/SECAM Betamax deck, then the sample rate was 44.1kHz (picture frame rate 25fps).

I had to do some transfers a few months back from 20 year old PAL Betamax tapes, and was amazed how painless it was. Dug the old Betamax SL-C7 deck from the loft, cleaned the heads, hooked up to the 701 and it worked a treat. The Audio+Design 701 has error correction lights, and in about 4 hours of transfers I didn't have one uncorrected error. I had to use the internal D/A as I don't have anything with SDIF-2 capabilities, but it didn't sound too bad - a bit harsh, perhaps, but quite acceptable.

cheers
Mark


Mark - thanks for this information.
I bought a Sony 501 back in the mid 80s and recorded dozens of mixes to a Sony Beta deck (American NTSC standard).
I was hoping to get the digital signal out of that unit into my Apogee converters - I hate the brittle sound of those 20 year old Sony digital converters.
From what you're saying I take it that it's not gonna happen...:(
Anyone else have any ideas?
Is there a tech out there that can tap into this unit and give me a digital out?

[ldg888]

I have a Sony PCM-601ESD with digital in and out for sale.....
$125.00 plus shipping.

LD

[studio-c]

Scott,
Did you work at Network Music?
Some of the best Editing - Music recording I've ever heard.
I've used them for over 17 years now.
Small world!
Yes, I worked at Network Music and Tuesday Productions (a jingle company) in the eighties. Great arrangers, great players. It was an awesome time!

My mentor in the music and recording biz was there, and he is the genius behind much of the sound you hear. He went on to work at American Gramophone records. His name was John Slowiczek, changed later to John Archer. He now lives in South America, and I believe he's out of the biz entirely.

Cheers,
Scott

[Carl G.]

Small world!
Yes, I worked at Network Music and Tuesday Productions (a jingle company) in the eighties. Great arrangers, great players. It was an awesome time!

My mentor in the music and recording biz was there, and he is the genius behind much of the sound you hear. He went on to work at American Gramophone records. His name was John Slowiczek, changed later to John Archer. He now lives in South America, and I believe he's out of the biz entirely.

Cheers,
Scott

Wow!
I admire your work!
As mentioned, I've used Network for umpteen years in my studio.
When I was at KYA AM/FM (easyrock 93) San Francisco, I think we used Tuesday Productions for Jingles at times also!
Very Very impressive recordings!
A pleasure to be in your aquiantance, sir.

[bcorkery]

Carl,

What Scott isn't telling is that the facilities there are beautiful too! My mouth waters just thinking about it.

I wanted to post a link but they seem to be down right now.

I called to find out what's up and they have a generic, mechanical voice message.

Hmmm.

[Dave Labrecque]

Small world!
Yes, I worked at Network Music and Tuesday Productions (a jingle company) in the eighties. Great arrangers, great players. It was an awesome time!

My mentor in the music and recording biz was there, and he is the genius behind much of the sound you hear. He went on to work at American Gramophone records. His name was John Slowiczek, changed later to John Archer. He now lives in South America, and I believe he's out of the biz entirely.

Cheers,
Scott

I used Network Music for 12 years -- had the whole library here. I only left 'em at the end of last year. Served me well for over a decade. And to think that all that great music was recorded by Scott using SAWStudio. :D