OT: ISDN Tips?

[MMP]

I bought a Telos Zephyr and am having ISDN service installed next week. Anyone care to share tips on interfacing, setup, codecs, resources, or anything else related to ISDN?

TIA!

Regards,

MM

[Sean McCoy]

You must have some cool "must-have-ISDN" gig to invest that kind of dough! I only had ISDN temporarily last year when a local celebrity was temporarily running a weekly radio show from my studio. I used a CDQ Prima and everything worked perfectly from day one. When I helped him install a permanent broadcast studio at his house with a RoadRunner unit, we had nightmare after nightmare. When all was said and done, nearly all our troubles were related to funky phone lines, so if everything seems like it should be working but doesn't, suspect the lines and make the phone company run thorough tests. There are also codec compatibility issues to watch for, but the Telos and Prima stuff is pretty universal. And ED Net can arrange sessions between non-compatible units---for a fee of course, and with some added delay.

[MMP]

Well the Zephyr was purchased and rebuilt by Telos for under $1500 total, so I am hoping to recoupe my investment in much less than a year.

Because I am doing more ad work lately, I need access to more talent than I have in my small market, and the agencies will pay for the service. I also work with some high quality local talent which I plan to market nationwide.

Not to mention all the movie stars vacationing in Maine that I have had to turn away for emergency dubbing because of no codec.(3):D

Regards,

MM

[CurtZHP]

I used to work for a syndicated radio program that lived and died by ISDN. We used it for everything.

For most voice work we used L2 Mono 128. The newer boxes can do stuff that might sound a lot better than that, though.

And it absolutely will not talk to an Adtran unit, so don't try it.


:)

[bcorkery]

The Zephyr's a cool box. I have mine on an aux buss and send the mic to that and either the HHB CD recorder L, DAT L or SAW L. I send the return back to HHB R, DAT R or SAW R, just to have the session recorded in case of some catastrophe at the other end. You can offer to send it to them, most decline but you're putting their mind at ease with your redundancy.

Clients who ask about ISDN don’t usually blink at the $$$ you have to charge. They realize the cost of maintaining the lines isn’t cheap and they like the immediacy of the technology.

I have a rate for dialing and a lower one for receiving, that’s the norm. Dave "it's a dry heat" Labrecque has a sweet setup, he got a cheap modem and uses his ISDN lines for receiving faxes and local stuff so he’s using the lines but not having to pay the usage fees. The long distance is the only thing you get dinged for. I wish I was as clever as he is.

Have fun. This could be a nice profit center.

[BillyK]

Which model Zephyr did you get?
Most people broadcasting music are choosing one of the AAC algo's, but those are only available in the XStream model.

BK

[MMP]

Pre Xtream...targeting voice over only.

Regards,

MM

[Dave Labrecque]

What, me clever? :)

I think it was my studio design engineer buddy (local radio chief engineer who helped me build my studio) who suggested using my ISDN line as my voice and fax lines when not doing an ISDN voice session. It's really the only way to go as far as I'm concerned. I'm saving the cost of two business POTS lines each month by simply not having them. I guess the other way to look at it is I'm just like anyone with voice and fax lines, except I also have ISDN -- for essentially no additional monthly cost. (not counting ISDN long distance -- see below) The ONLY drawback I've come across is that I can't do a combo phone patch/ISDN session, which occasionally is needed. In those rare cases, though, I often have one of the other parties bring the analog call in.

And if you don't have a POTS line available in addition to your ISDN, be sure to have a cell phone nearby to troubleshoot ISDN connections. Very occasionally, it takes a little trial and error to get the connection to take.

Yes -- I found a Motorola Bitsfurfer Pro ISDN modem on eBay for $1.98. There are four on there right now for $4.99. The thing just sits there and works -- giving me two B-channels (virtual analog lines) out the back with standard RJ11 connnector(s). I have a DPDT switch before the modem that takes the ISDN pair in and feeds either the modem or my Zephyr. I used to literally move a connector from one jack to another, but this is much simpler.

Actually, come to think of it -- when I first got ISDN installed, I bought an ISDN router on ebay for bigger money and the ISDN line was my Internet connection, too! Wow, talk about multi-tasking. Though, I gotta say, 128 kbps was not exactly blowing my hair back (which is impossible, anyway).

$1500 for a Zephyr is a totally killer deal! I'm sure you know that.

Definitely list yourself with digifon and any other lists you can find. Also, your local/state film office or production association or other trade groups. I get calls all the time through them. Put the letters "ISDN" in there and wait for Googlers to find you. It's not uncommon, as you suggest, for actors or voice people to be either working or vacationing in Tucson when a job comes up and they or their agent find me online and set up a session out of the blue.

I even have "ISDN" in my yellow pages ads. Not that the general public will be impressed, but perhaps it'll show up in web searches?

Layer 2 Mono 128 seems to be the only setting I ever use. THE standard for VO work. Occasionally G.722, typically for live broadcast stuff. Note: it appears that Layer 2 Mono 128 is actually two channels of audio. Might come in handy for ya in some situations. You can actually do a single-channel session by only dialing and connecting on one of the ISDN numbers. Go figure.

I have mine Zephyr normally fed in my patchbay from one of the master bus outputs on my console. That way, if I need to send a stereo mix (haven't had the need yet, but I'm hopin' :)), I can just do it. I also have the Zephyr output normalled at the patch bay to a stereo fader pair on the board. And I have an autodial setup in the Zephyr so that before each session I can do a quick self-test to be sure all is configured correctly. I hit that preset and one channel of the Zephyr calls the other. I yell 'hello' and if I hear my hello echoing, I know it's all there.

Signal routing during the session: I see to always come back to this, though it doesn't seem traditionally the way to do it...

I assign all sources to the master bus except the Zephyr (talent in the booth, my talkback mic, any playback sources I may need -- like SAW). For control room monitoring, I solo all channels on the board except my talkback mic (talent, Zephyr output, playback sources). I feed the talent's headphones via auxes: them, me, Zephyr, playback sources.

I always backup-record everything in the background in SAW when the client is recording on the other end. Sometimes I can do take playbacks for 'em quicker than they can. ;)

As far as funky tech problems. I've found that my issues are almost never the phone company's fault. Even so, be sure you have your direct phone numbers on-file to reach the ISDN folks within the phone company. There are a lot of folks at the phone company who think they know what ISDN is, but don't really.

The only issue I have these days is that my incoming regular voice calls are occasionally dropped upon my answering the phone. I'm pretty sure it's a problem with my custom switch/wiring. Never had the problem when I was just moving the cable from one jack to another. One of these days I'll get to that... :o

And another thing... I have a mid-priced analog phone hybrid for phone patch sessions. It works okay. But not as good as the high-end digital codecs. I was talking to an L.A. VO studio a couple weeks ago, and their chief told me that Zephyrs can be used as a regular phone hybrid. Duh! I knew it could take regular phone calls, but never thought to try to use it in place of my Gentner. Still haven't tried it. It'll be interesting to see how it does.

Let's see, what else... the only trouble I've ever had hooking up to non-Telos codecs was either A) my Zephyr was bad, or B) the user of the non-Telos codec wasn't familiar with how to use it in such a scenario (usually, a voice artist with a home studio). The Roadrunners, for example (and maybe all Musicams, not sure) have a "speed dial" preset that puts them in Zephyr mode. It's real easy if you know it's there and how to use it. I've actually downloaded the Roadrunner manual and talked the talent through this a time or two.

Rates... I have a studio rate and an ISDN "surcharge" on top of that. I then add on long distance charges if I dial out. I recommend you PM me on the specifics, if interested.

AAC... In the last seven years I've had one ADR session that asked about DolbyFax (ultimately fell through, anyway) and one vocal tracking session that needed AAC (ultimately fell through, anyway). Certainly not worth my getting the hardware to accomodate the need. Not in Tucson. ;)

ISDN long distance service... I'm paying about $18 a month. Most of that is a minimum usage fee that is offset by any dialing out I do. Sadly, most of my ISDN session work involve the client calling me, so I often am just paying the bill so that I have it available when I need it. Mostly, I use it when producing radio spots, using out-of-town talent. Then, I can recoup the cost (actually, make some money) by billing the client. Sounds like this will be something you'll be doing. It's very cool to be able to hook up with these folks all over the country and the world and talk to 'em and direct 'em like they're right there in your booth. And the home studio talent typically do not charge an ISDN hook-up fee in my experience. A great, often cost-effective source of talent for guys like us!

One note on ISDN long distance (which you may already be aware of, and that may not even apply to your situation if you're going with a "dedicated" ISDN line in your studio)... the long distance charges for VO-session-type ISDN calls are usually higher than those for typical voice calls. I'm paying 8 cents a minute. So, I have my VO session long distance service (TNCI), that I use via an access code with each Zephyr dial-up. And then I have my regular long distance service, more like 5 cents a minute, which is the default carrier when making any regular long distance voice/fax calls. You do typically need an ISDN-specific long distance provider for the Zephyr calls. But check and see. You might get lucky.

I think that's all I know. Good luck! And let us know if any questions come up along the way. :)

[MMP]

Thanks Dave!

I would be interested in hearing how you charge for ISDN sessions. Please PM me if you don't want to post that publicly.

Regards,

MM

[MMP]

BTW, I went with TNCI for my long distance ISDN as well, but I am keeping my two pots lines, as I often have to conference multiple locations, and still have two hybrid phone patches.

Regards,

MM

[bcorkery]

Mike,

Another "gotcha" you may encounter is with the Prima codecs. There's usually someone at the far end that can change the setings. On occasion though I'll change the transmit settings to cooperate with that end. I think the Prima's the only one that acted funny that way.

For another session I had talent in Texas, LA and here, I had to bridge through EdNet (http://ednet.net/), aonther contact you'll want to make. A lot of sessions come through them. What was weird aobout this one is that there was an almost 1 second lag from LA. You'd think they'd be up to the task there! I'm guessing the routing was convoluted because I've never heard latency that bad. Maybe it was the bridge but Texas seemed to be fine. O'course almost every garrage in LA has an ISDN box. :D

Tech help at Telos is great. I like to give 'em a ring the day before a big session to make sure all's well.

More as I think of it,
Bill

[Dave Labrecque]

Mike,

Another "gotcha" you may encounter is with the Prima codecs. There's usually someone at the far end that can change the setings. On occasion though I'll change the transmit settings to cooperate with that end. I think the Prima's the only one that acted funny that way.

For another session I had talent in Texas, LA and here, I had to bridge through EdNet (http://ednet.net/), aonther contact you'll want to make. A lot of sessions come through them. What was weird aobout this one is that there was an almost 1 second lag from LA. You'd think they'd be up to the task there! I'm guessing the routing was convoluted because I've never heard latency that bad. Maybe it was the bridge but Texas seemed to be fine. O'course almost every garrage in LA has an ISDN box. :D

Tech help at Telos is great. I like to give 'em a ring the day before a big session to make sure all's well.

More as I think of it,
Bill

Bill, I think the typical back and forth L2 Mono 128 delay is near a half-second. I could certainly understand a full second if bridging via EdNet.

[bcorkery]

Stashu,

At the first sign of trouble, I tell the other studio to reboot the box & I do the same. That usually clears things up.

MMP,
Another resource is http://1212.com/ I get some international biz with these guys and it's cheap!

[Ian Alexander]

[snip]
Note: it appears that Layer 2 Mono 128 is actually two channels of audio. Might come in handy for ya in some situations. You can actually do a single-channel session by only dialing and connecting on one of the ISDN numbers. Go figure.
[snip]
Dave, very informative and helpful post. I found several helpful ideas, so I hope this helps you.

Layer 2 Mono 128 uses all 128kb for one and only one audio channel. It may come out of both analog outputs, but it's mono. With different settings, I can configure the Prima LT to send audio to two destinations, but each connection uses only 64kb (I have only one ISDN line, or 2 B channels.) Your Zephyr probably has a similar setting. IMO, 64k is not hifi enough even for dry VO. If you record at 64, you are far more likely to encounter compression artifacts with cascading, or additional compression/decompression iterations, say in an mp3 sent to clients or to a radio station. 64k sounds great compared to a POTS line, though, and can be very useful for traffic and other remote reporting.

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave, very informative and helpful post. I found several helpful ideas, so I hope this helps you.

Layer 2 Mono 128 uses all 128kb for one and only one audio channel. It may come out of both analog outputs, but it's mono. With different settings, I can configure the Prima LT to send audio to two destinations, but each connection uses only 64kb (I have only one ISDN line, or 2 B channels.) Your Zephyr probably has a similar setting. IMO, 64k is not hifi enough even for dry VO. If you record at 64, you are far more likely to encounter compression artifacts with cascading, or additional compression/decompression iterations, say in an mp3 sent to clients or to a radio station. 64k sounds great compared to a POTS line, though, and can be very useful for traffic and other remote reporting.

Hi Ian,

All that your're saying sounds right. And that's how I thought it worked. And maybe it does, and I'm misinterpreting something here, but...

I tried messing around with it a while back. What I found is that L2 mono 128 is not mono, but is stereo. I assumed, therefore, that meant 64 kbps for each of two channels. Now, maybe they're not phase-locked and so not true, usable stereo, but what I recall happened is that I was hooked up with a studio at L2 mono 128, and I was getting only the left side. I thought this was impossible, since it was supposed to be mono, i.e., same thing on both channels. (Turned out to be a mixer routing issue on his end. I think. Maybe that's where my mistake is.) So, I tried doing a session dialing/connecting on only one B channel. It sounded just like any L2 mono 128 session. Maybe I wasn't listening critically enough to notice, but I guess I just assumed... since the prior session I mention had an apparent two-discrete-channels. I mean, it's not like if you pot one channel down the fidelity decreases. Know what I mean?

What do you make of that? Maybe it was a codec connection issue, rather than a mixer issue? We oughta try hooking up sometime to see.

[Ian Alexander]

Hi Ian,

All that your're saying sounds right. And that's how I thought it worked. And maybe it does, and I'm misinterpreting something here, but...

I tried messing around with it a while back. What I found is that L2 mono 128 is not mono, but is stereo. I assumed, therefore, that meant 64 kbps for each of two channels. Now, maybe they're not phase-locked and so not true, usable stereo, but what I recall happened is that I was hooked up with a studio at L2 mono 128, and I was getting only the left side. I thought this was impossible, since it was supposed to be mono, i.e., same thing on both channels. (Turned out to be a mixer routing issue on his end. I think. Maybe that's where my mistake is.) So, I tried doing a session dialing/connecting on only one B channel. It sounded just like any L2 mono 128 session. Maybe I wasn't listening critically enough to notice, but I guess I just assumed... since the prior session I mention had an apparent two-discrete-channels. I mean, it's not like if you pot one channel down the fidelity decreases. Know what I mean?

What do you make of that? Maybe it was a codec connection issue, rather than a mixer issue? We oughta try hooking up sometime to see.
Hm, I don't know much about the Zephyr, or what codec the other guy had, but it sounds like he was sending stereo and your Zephyr shrugged and said, "Okay, stereo it is." Or maybe he only connected on one number. The Prima LT will connect that way and give me audio, but I don't recall whether it appears on one or both analog outs. I think it's pretty clear, though, that you can't get any more than 64kb through one ISDN B channel.

Which reminds me, aren't they using the word, "channel", for too many things?

We've done some ISDN experiments in the past. I'd be up for more. I'll send you an email.

[Dave Labrecque]

Hm, I don't know much about the Zephyr, or what codec the other guy had, but it sounds like he was sending stereo and your Zephyr shrugged and said, "Okay, stereo it is." Or maybe he only connected on one number. The Prima LT will connect that way and give me audio, but I don't recall whether it appears on one or both analog outs. I think it's pretty clear, though, that you can't get any more than 64kb through one ISDN B channel.

Which reminds me, aren't they using the word, "channel", for too many things?

We've done some ISDN experiments in the past. I'd be up for more. I'll send you an email.

We were connected on both B channels, as I recall. And so I just assumed that it was 2 x 64 kbps for L2 mono 128, which made sense to me since 128 kbps is (or was) kind of a standard in stereo MP3 files (which I understand are a different codec).

But now that you mention it, I never hear any of the flangey siblance artifacts in L2 mono 128 that I hear in a 128 kbps MP3, so you may be onto something.

I'll look for your email. I know we did some experimenting in the past. Did we already cover this? Am I senile yet?

[MMP]

Well, I got the service finally and did a test run with Dave Immer @ Digifon and everything seems good to go. I've got my first booking on Wednesday with Studiocenter, it should be interesting. Thankfully, the client will be tolerant if anything goes amiss.

I did realize that my external Hear Technologies talkback box wasn't going to cut it with the extra mixes I need for outgoing sessions, so I ended up buying their newer box with extra busses on it.

I wanted to belatedly thank all that contributed to this thread...it really helped me out!

Also, if any of the SAW family V.O. guys with ISDN want to send me demos, that would be great.

Regards,

MM

[Bud Johnson]

Well, I got the service finally and did a test run with Dave Immer @ Digifon and everything seems good to go. I've got my first booking on Wednesday with Studiocenter, it should be interesting. Thankfully, the client will be tolerant if anything goes amiss.

I did realize that my external Hear Technologies talkback box wasn't going to cut it with the extra mixes I need for outgoing sessions, so I ended up buying their newer box with extra busses on it.

I wanted to belatedly thank all that contributed to this thread...it really helped me out!

Also, if any of the SAW family V.O. guys with ISDN want to send me demos, that would be great.

Regards,

MM
I've followed this thread in much the same way I followed Mix, and Recording magazines in the mid 80 s. CLUELESSLY! Chalk one up for Tenacity!

Is there a site that might be a good start to learn the basics-protocals-vendors-best practices of isdn-voip-etc as it relates to realtime internet recording-long distance New Dehli>Chicago revenue stream?
TIA
Bud Johnson

[MMP]

I had my first two ISDN sessions today. Though I was a bit worried that I might run into something unexpected, both sessions went great-no issues whatsoever. First session was with Procomm and the second with StudioCenter. It was great to have good fidelity while directing the Vo guys. I was happy, and more importantly, my client loved it.


Regards,

MM

[Dave Labrecque]

I had my first two ISDN sessions today. Though I was a bit worried that I might run into something unexpected, both sessions went great-no issues whatsoever. First session was with Procomm and the second with StudioCenter. It was great to have good fidelity while directing the Vo guys. I was happy, and more importantly, my client loved it.


Regards,

MM

Nice going, Michael. :) Yeah, it's pretty cool to be able to work with talent like they're in the next room.

You might try SunSpots for talent, too. I've been using them for the last couple years. Prices on par with ProComm, I believe.

[bcorkery]

Kudos Michael!

[MMP]

All the sessions I've done with Studio Center have been booked by Ad agencies. Sorry, I don't have a contact there. I bet if you called you could get some personal attention.

Regards,

MM




Michael, do you have an email address to get a quote from Studio Center for V.O. session? I seem to have lost it, and don't want to go through the website form.

Mark