Seeking advice on building a new system

[CurtZHP]

The last computer I built for audio was about 4-5 years ago. It was a Pentium 4 2.4GHz.

I'm looking into building another machine from scratch and I've been admittedly lax in keeping up with processor technology.

What's the latest thing these days, and what can I expect to deal with as far as interfacing my current soundcard and other peripherals?

What's the story on Core 2? Pentium D 9xx?

[Perry]

My quick recommendation is first of all to skip Pentium D... go to Core 2. Far better performance.

A very good working system can be built around the Asus P5W DH Deluxe and Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Dual Core Processor (LGA775 Conroe 2.40GHZ 1066FSB 4MB Cache).

You can go up the Core 2 Duo chain a notch or two for more money but the slight increase in performance is arguably not worth the extra expense. The E6600 is a great price/performance point. You can also rather easily overclock the E6600 to the same operating speeds of the E6700 or the E6800 even. I do this with my rig. (you have to have high quality memory capable of overclocking as well for this to work).

Drop in 2 GB of good quality, high speed memory (DDR2-800 or DDR2 1066 for example) and you have an excellent SAWStudio rig. This motherboard and cpu have been well documented for great performance and stability across the boards... compatible with everything out there in the DAW world as far as I know.

There are 'newer' CPU's and motherboards but these are currently available and still 'current'... you can't go wrong with this setup. You can go to Quad-core as well with this same motherboard but it's questionable whether this will give you any increase in performance for SAWStudio and this isn't as well proven in the field. The Core 2 Duo will give you very strong performance. It blows the socks off of the Pentium 4 class processors. The Core 2 Duo and Asus P5w DH Deluxe combo is rock solid.

Putting this another way.. this is the first time I've had a system that reaches the performance level where I essentially have stopped 'lusting' after more power and stopped even having attention on the computer system. Powerful and solid.. this will keep you rolling through the trenches for quite some time.

All the best,

Perry

[CurtZHP]

Let's see if I understand this.....

The newer chips (Core2) don't boast the higher clock speeds of the old Pentium4 chips, but because they are basically two processors in one package, a lower clock speed (in the low 2GHz range, for example) will give you essentially the same, if not somewhat better, performance than the P4.

Have I got it so far?


I got you on the Pentium D. After I started this thread, I discovered that the PD is already yesterday's news.

[Perry]

Let's see if I understand this.....

The newer chips (Core2) don't boast the higher clock speeds of the old Pentium4 chips, but because they are basically two processors in one package, a lower clock speed (in the low 2GHz range, for example) will give you essentially the same, if not somewhat better, performance than the P4.

Have I got it so far?


I got you on the Pentium D. After I started this thread, I discovered that the PD is already yesterday's news.

You sorta got it.. :) The thing is you have to stop looking at the clock speed as the only way of predicting performance. Intel promoted that concept for many years as a marketing strategy while AMD stayed quite competitive with CPUs with lower clock speeds. The efficiency of the CPU's calculating abilities is what's most important. The Core 2 Duo very easily trounces the P4's and this isn't solely because it has 2 cores. It has 2 cores that individually are very powerful on their own. It's not a 'step' in a progression along the P4 line with a small increase in performance... it's a whole new architecture that essentially leaped ahead more than one generation in one fell swoop!

Trust me (and a whole lot of others) the Core 2 Duo isn't going to give you performance that is 'essentially the same, if not somewhat better' .. it's going to leap ahead.. by miles! No kidding. :)

Perry

[CurtZHP]

Good to know. Thanks!

As far as the mobo you recommended, it was very impressive. But it was really overkill for my purposes. It had a few bells and whistles that I know I'll never need, so it was a bit spendy. But know that I know what I'm looking for, I should be fine.

[Bruce Callaway]

I have just built a new system and used a lot of Perry's advice (thanks Perry). I bought an Intel 6850 Duo2 as its price point was only AU$40 above a 6600. These CPUs absolutely fly as Perry said. As I need as many PCI slots as I can get, I bought an ASUS Commando board which is close to a P5W. For a video card, I got a Gigabyte Nvidia 7300GT as it is silent.

FWIW, my only major setup issue was itinerant blue screens which was a big concern. After much additional grey hair, I tracked this down to the Commando BIOS that had the CPU clocking set to "performance" rather than "standard". In short, the CPU was being overclocked and was simply overheating. I don't know why as I had installed Thermaltake 775D cooling. The system error message was that my overclocking had failed :eek: I wasn't trying to overclock anything. Maybe this is a new trap for new style motherboards customised for overclocking.

[Perry]

Sorry you had trouble Bruce. But yeah.. the "Commando' is aimed towards the gaming/enthusiast market and the 'standard' performance/over-clock settings make sense in that light.

Are you sure the CPU was overheating? The problem could have been with your memory not being able to accept any over-clocking rather than with the motherboard itself. The gaming/enthusiast users usually go pretty wild with high end (expensive!) memory that will over-clock considerably. Even a mild overclock of 'normal' memory can crash the system.

In general, overclocking (especially mild over-clocking) of modern motherboards such as the Asus ones should not cause a problem... so long as other components are up to it.... but that's a side issue here in any regards. Glad you resolved the situation.

In looking for a motherboard another thing to be aware of is that if Firewire is an issue carefully read the specs on whatever mobo you're considering. Sometimes some of these 'sub-systems' aren't consistent across a brand or motherboard line. For instance the Asus mobos use both VIA and 'Oxford Semiconductor' controllers for on-board Firewire. Some people report problems with VIA Firewire controllers.

And I agree that the P5W DH Deluxe has more bells and whistles than needed for a DAW.. and more than I myself need for certain. And also for certain I didn't buy it for the 'bells and whistles' but for the quality of construction and components and for it's widely regarded performance and stability. This motherboard is so well documented and so well received in the DAW world that I felt (and still feel) that it was worth the extra dollars for peace of mind. YMMV of course. :) As always.. whatever works! :)

Perry

[AudioAstronomer]

Perry, what video are yo using?

[Perry]

Ummm.. to add here.. the Intel 6850 Duo2 is a 1333FSB CPU. The P5W DH Deluxe was originally designed for a 1066 Front Side Bus.. though it is capable of handling the higher speed through 'overclocking'.

Possibly (probably?) installing the 6850 CPU will raise the Front Side Bus of the P5W when it configures itself. There's a good chance Bruce that this is overclocking your memory, depending on other factors. Raising the FSB is in fact a method of over-clocking.

It could be that the slight additional over-clocking of the 'performance' setting was just too much. If it's stable now it really doesn't matter but you could check this in your BIOS to see what the FSB setting is.

Perry

Correction: I should have said the 'Commando'. In any case.... the 'Commando' was also designed for a 1066 Front Side Bus

[Perry]

Perry, what video are yo using?

Hi Robert,

Asus X1950 Pro (ATI Radeon).

Perry

[Ian Alexander]

FWIW, I have never gone wrong with Intel mobos. I'm not even sure if their price point is higher or lower than the popular ASUS, but they've been rock solid for me....and the BIOS is update-able if you feel the need. I just updated a BIOS on a legacy mobo a few weeks ago.

Mark
I don't know if performance is any different from the Asus board, but I went with an Intel MB as well. This was based on the recommendation of my builder, who told me the Intel board had a considerably longer warranty and better warranty replacement speed (days vs weeks) if I had a problem. I admit that I don't even come close to challenging this 6600 system, but it smokes my old P4 2.8 on mixdowns and other non-realtime chores.

[Perry]

I don't know if performance is any different from the Asus board, but I went with an Intel MB as well. This was based on the recommendation of my builder, who told me the Intel board had a considerably longer warranty and better warranty replacement speed (days vs weeks) if I had a problem. I admit that I don't even come close to challenging this 6600 system, but it smokes my old P4 2.8 on mixdowns and other non-realtime chores.

The Intel boards are noted for stability... and partly this is due (in my understanding) to their 'slightly under-stressed' design. In benchmarks I believe they perform ever so slightly under top tier boards like the Asus boards. But, in real world use this isn't something you'd probably notice at all. We're talking small differences here. And I'm certainly not implying that the Intel would be 'slow'... it won't.

Also they aren't regarded as good 'over-clockers' usually, for the same reasons.. as well as fewer 'tweaking' options.... but again this isn't probably an issue for most here.

Personally I still prefer the Asus board and recommend it... but if you find an Intel board with the features you need it certainly should serve well.. and it will be cheaper.

All the best!

Perry

To add: A good warranty is a good thing.. of course. But FWIW, if I have a component fail like the motherboard I'll be down to my supplier the same day buying a new one. Waiting any amount of time for a replacement through warranty isn't usually an option I'd consider for something like a motherboard. Once I had the system up and running again I might inquire aobut a replacement under warranty. OTOH, I don't think I can even remember having a motherboard outright fail on it's own once it was installed and working properly in the first place. Once I remember thinking that had happened but it turned out to be that the power supply had died instead.

[AudioAstronomer]

So.. good complete setup, brands and all please ;)

[Bruce Callaway]

Are you sure the CPU was overheating? The problem could have been with your memory not being able to accept any over-clocking rather than with the motherboard itself. The gaming/enthusiast users usually go pretty wild with high end (expensive!) memory that will over-clock considerably. Even a mild overclock of 'normal' memory can crash the system.Perry Hi Perry, good point. I was getting 80 degree C temperature warnings at the time however the system was so unstable, it could have easily been the memory causing the blue screens.

By the way, I got 2Gig CORSAIR XMS2 DHX 6400C5DHX 800mhz memory. I would have preferred the P5W board, it was only the extra PCI slots that made me choose the Commando as I use 2 slots for the Layla24s that I have. I agree it is made for gamers. Now that it is stable, all systems are go so far (FAB Virgil :).

By the way, your guide to a new PC build and components was very helpful, thanks again.

Cheers

[CurtZHP]

Ditto on the Intel motherboards. I've been using them for years and I've never had anything squirrely happen. There's a lot to be said for putting an Intel chip on an Intel board. Who knows how much hassle I've saved myself?

[bcorkery]

better warranty replacement speed (days vs weeks) if I had a problem. I had to RMA my ASUS board and it took almost 2 months to get a new one. :(

It's back now and I'm looking for the time to put the rest of it together.

[CurtZHP]

Even if you do end up going out and just buying a replacement mobo off the shelf, it's still a good idea to return the bad one for warranty repair or replacement. You can always shelve it as a spare.

[Perry]

Hi Perry, good point. I was getting 80 degree C temperature warnings at the time however the system was so unstable, it could have easily been the memory causing the blue screens.

By the way, I got 2Gig CORSAIR XMS2 DHX 6400C5DHX 800mhz memory. I would have preferred the P5W board, it was only the extra PCI slots that made me choose the Commando as I use 2 slots for the Layla24s that I have. I agree it is made for gamers. Now that it is stable, all systems are go so far (FAB Virgil :).

By the way, your guide to a new PC build and components was very helpful, thanks again.

Cheers

Hey, I considered the Commando as well... nice motheboard! I actually had to go with an expansion chassis to have enough PCI slots.. so I could go with the P5W and it wasn't a problem.

Something seems odd about that overheating issue you had. I still wonder about having the higher FSB CPU in there and what that may have done to the settings.. but gee.. it really just doesn't matter now. Once you get it all ironed out a motherboard is just a motherboard... not all that exciting really. ;) And that memory should be quite OK!

Glad the info was of help. Wow.. that seems like it was practically forever ago. :)

Cheers!

Perry

[Perry]

Even if you do end up going out and just buying a replacement mobo off the shelf, it's still a good idea to return the bad one for warranty repair or replacement. You can always shelve it as a spare.

Yeah.. I agree. OTOH though I practically have shelves full of old mobos now...every now and then I run across one and it's like.. "Oh yeah! I remember THAT ONE!" ;)

Some of these literally will never see the light of day again and ever so often I give one or two away or sell them cheaply to someone locally. Occasionally I get guys asking me if I have one for sale. :rolleyes:

I'm about to replace Danielle's graphics computer with a new Core 2 Duo rig that will replace her AMD dual core from a few years back.

Don' t know yet what I'm going to do with that one when I pull it out. It's more powerful than one of the computers in my room but that one is more than is needed already for it's purpose and it's not worth it to me to go through all the .. &@$(*&@$&%*(&@#$(*&*** ...argggh.... (sorry.. I'm ok now ;)

..err... all the trouble of re-authorizing XP and all the software in order to replace it. So... there's yet another motherboard probably headed for the shelves for the moment... or maybe forever! :)

Perry

[Perry]

So.. good complete setup, brands and all please ;)

Are you serious? :) No.. seriously.. are you? :)

perry

[Bruce Callaway]

Something seems odd about that overheating issue you had. I still wonder about having the higher FSB CPU in there and what that may have done to the settings. I agree, I think you nailed it as memory. I hadn't considered that as a cause. The system was throwing up some weird results at the time, the temperature reading may have been one of them.

As for Intel boards, they are not that common here in the build it yourself market over here. They also have limited PCI slots from what I have seen at least online here in Aus. Good boards at competitive prices I am sure, maybe next time....

[Perry]

I agree, I think you nailed it as memory. I hadn't considered that as a cause. The system was throwing up some weird results at the time, the temperature reading may have been one of them.

As for Intel boards, they are not that common here in the build it yourself market over here. They also have limited PCI slots from what I have seen at least online here in Aus. Good boards at competitive prices I am sure, maybe next time....

Ummm.. that rings a bell.. there was something I read about temperature readings with the Core 2 Duo CPU's at one point.. about them reporting temps way higher than they actually were to some reporting apps. I also remember actually encountering it while running some benchmarks... but I don't remember the exact details about why it was happening. Something to do with... awww.. you know... one hand not talking to the other or something to that effect. It was actual core temps or something being misinterpreted... forgot now.

Oh well.... There's a happy ending.. that's the main thing! :)

Perry

[Carl G.]

...
Putting this another way.. this is the first time I've had a system that reaches the performance level where I essentially have stopped 'lusting' after more power

All the best,

Perry
I have about the same system, Perry. Great stuff.
(but when the "Dual" Core 2 Duos come down in price we might think different) :)

[Perry]

I have about the same system, Perry. Great stuff.
(but when the "Dual" Core 2 Duos come down in price we might think different) :)

Could be.. could be. ;) I'm thinking though I'd probably hold out for a while with this system until there's the next BIG leap... and that'll come.. that'll come.

The 'next generation' Penryn Core 2 Extreme QX9650 is just rolling out but it's only the beginning. I'd like to hold out until some time in 2009 I think... maybe... you know.. if I can mange to. :rolleyes:

Perry

[Carl G.]

Could be.. could be. ;) I'm thinking though I'd probably hold out for a while with this system until there's the next BIG leap... and that'll come.. that'll come.

The 'next generation' Penryn Core 2 Extreme QX9650 is just rolling out but it's only the beginning. I'd like to hold out until some time in 2009 I think... maybe... you know.. if I can mange to. :rolleyes:

Perry
I have not overclocked mine yet.
The motherboard software makes it look easy. Is it as easy as it looks?
Any pointers?
What's the worse that can happen if I crank it too hard?
I'm fine with it now... but I got that "Just One More Notch" syndrome :)

[Perry]

I have not overclocked mine yet.
The motherboard software makes it look easy. Is it as easy as it looks?
Any pointers?
What's the worse that can happen if I crank it too hard?
I'm fine with it now... but I got that "Just One More Notch" syndrome :)

Just settle down there Carl! ;) Just kidding.. go for it!

The thing to do with it is to go slow... only increase things a little bit at a time. Generally speaking the worse thing that is likely to happen is tht you'd cause the system to freeze up and/or not boot and you'd have to go into the BIOS and reset things. If I recall correctly there's a bit of 'self protection' built in to this mobo. It usually wouldn't require you to manually clear the settings by changing jumpers on the motherboard.

Of course the very worst thing would be to smell (and see) smoke! :eek: But that isn't likely. Just go slow.

I have my 6600 OC'd up to around the speed of a 6800. I'd have to look at the BIOS again and refresh my memory on the settings. If you decide to give it a try PM me if you like and I can help you mess it all up. ;) :)

Perry

[Carl G.]

If you decide to give it a try PM me if you like and I can help you mess it all up. ;) :)

Perry

Thanks Perry!
I guess the first question to ask is - do you see a measurable performance increase?

I have a 3 week project I'm headed into so I'll have to wait till it's finished.
But... afterwards I'd like to create a sonic boom as I "Break the Speed Barrier" :)
I'll PM you.

[Perry]

Thanks Perry!
I guess the first question to ask is - do you see a measurable performance increase?

I have a 3 week project I'm headed into so I'll have to wait till it's finished.
But... afterwards I'd like to create a sonic boom as I "Break the Speed Barrier" :)
I'll PM you.

I'd say the 'speed' difference in this case is really more of a 'headroom' difference. You'd see it most if and when you needed it... kinda like having extra horsepower under the hood.

The thing is it's very powerful already.. but it's pretty easy to twek it up a bit.. and maybe more that a bit.

Got your PM. Let me know when you're ready to give her some gas and see what she'll do! :)

Perry