Midi Control Template Creator??

[TotalSonic]

Bob -
Yura brought up an interesting point in his "Note" thread and I completely understand your response. There are simply too many new controllers being introduced by manufacturers with more and more frequency these days for any single person to try and keep up with them - and in addition it seems that every end user would like the controller to be able to work with SAW slightly differently from the next guy. But why not come up with a solution which once implemented solves the problem totally and completely - and makes SAW have the best controller support over any other DAW for now and all of the future? What I have in mind would be a SAWStudio Midi Control Template Creator - which could be either a be a standalong utility - or a mode that could be entered into from a command in the program. What it would do is allow people to either enter MIDI OX Midi message text readings from their controllers and tie these to all of SAW's parameters they would like to control - or better yet would put SAW's knobs and faders into a "listen" mode where they would link to the next midi controller moved via the midi message received. After every virtual parameter was assigned the template could be saved as a file and have the preferences either open it optionally or by default. While this certainly would be initially time consuming for the end user for the vast majority of us it would only need to be done once - and then it could be shared with other users so a large downloadable base of controller templates could be made readily available.

One of the other programs I use regularly - Synapse Audio's Orion - does exactly this - you right click on a virtual knob or fader in its mixer window - choose from the popup dialog box "link to next midi controller", move one of your physical controller's knobs - and it's linked. You can download a demo of Orion Platinum at http://www.synapse-audio.com/demo.php?id=1400 to see this in action for yourself if you like. I think an implementation that was similar - but by necessity a bit more sophisticated - for SAWStudio would end the time demands on yourself for keeping up with all the new controllers AND put a smile on the face of nearly every SAWuser who happens to find a ton of benefit from having a physical control surface. Personally I think the potential for entering multiple commands at once that you can get out a physical controller over the usual one at a time with mouse & keyboard - plus many controllers can help relieve the potential for damage from repetitive motions during very long sessions. Of course every DAW users mileage will vary depending on the way they want to work - but in this way you would be able to give everyone some amazing options to take advantage of. But I remember Brian Eno bringing up a great point as to why he didn't like to work with computers in that he could only control one thing at a time where as in, say a guitar, you had 6 (strings that is). I think physical controllers have the potential to get rid of this barrier for those that desire to use them.

Anyway - there are 2 upcoming controllers that look very promising: Behringer is about to release an 8 channel 100mm motorized fader controller with both USB & MIDI i/o with a number of additional knobs on it for only a street price of $200 - which I think would put it within the budget of nearly every DAW user. And for those who have need for a lot of faders at once (i.e. those involved in a larger commercial facility or those using SAWStudio in Live mode for actual mixing of a live performance) the Tascam US-2400 with 24 motorized faders looks pretty darn cool.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[ghowardjr]

Guess we're thinking alike, Steve... Didn't see your post before I responded in like manner asking Bob to provide a template creation applet and let the burden for supporting the controllers fall back to the user community at large...

Long live SS...
Gary

[Yura]

Bob -
What I have in mind would be a SAWStudio Midi Control Template Creator - which could be either a be a standalong utility -
Steve Berson

Steve, give me your hand please.
you'v just expressed the thing I had in my worryed subconscious.

so long.

[AudioAstronomer]

I think the tascam controller would greatly increase the saw experience by simply adding a "second mouse" to help control faders. Other controllers like mackie or what not perhaps not necassary with some of their advanced functions. But the behringer and tascam controllers simply offer another hand at controlling saw's basic mixing functions, while the real mouse and keyboard control the full power of saw.

[Bob L]

Guys, I wish it were that easy...

It just doesn't work that way inside something as complex and interwoven as the SAWStudio console and MT environment.

It took me 6 weeks of 10-12 hour days re-writing internall code links between hundreds of routines and creating dozens of new variables, flags and new routines in order to hook the Mackie Control the way it is...

Every Controller I have ever seen does readout displays and switch lights completely different... there is no such thing, in my experience so far, as a simple just listen for the midi string and hook it to a control...

And then have that Controller know how to display a led light, let alone control the display readout and also then determine what mode the time display readout is in and should be in based on the user's interaction with what is on the screen and in which view is the user working and where on the screen is the actual switch... at the top left of the window or is this same switch now over here at the bottom right because we changed the FKey workspace... etc.

To interface a controller the way SAWStudio works with the Mackie... in full automation, bi-directional with modes and alt keys and shift keys and readout interactions... sorry to say... a simple app like that would require a whole staff charged with nothing but tech supporting that one from now till the end of time... let alone the amount of time it would take me to create yet another whole interface of every possible variable and flag and readout display types... etc... None for me thanks... I really have many more interesting and valuable ways I want to spend my time.

And what about the documentation to explaing how to work such an app... come on... most won't even read the current documentation to learn how to work what's already created. :D

So, no attitude intended, but if your most important focus is on which Midi Controller you need to use to do your audio work, perhaps SAWStudio is simply not the right tool for you. :)

SAWStudio opens the doors to those people who are ready to expand into newer and ever-more far reaching horizons as the concept of true virtual mixing starts to take hold and evolve. This is what excites me and this is where my focus is when I write code.

Bob L

[AudioAstronomer]

Does sawstudio support HUI emulation per the mackie control?

If so, the tascam controllers already will work perfectly.

[Bob L]

No HUI support, only some support for the Baby Hui controller which is not quite the same thing. :)

You can already use the Mackie emulation of some of the Tascam controllers, but still, this will not take full advantage of the shift modifiers and display readout functions that SAWStudio does with the real Mackie Control.

Basic functions should work ok.

Bob L

[AudioAstronomer]

Its my understanding the new Tascam control just has pan/fader and maybe solo/mute. Very, very basic. Like I said, just a glorified second mouse.

Wonder if it would work, that would be a rather good solution to many peoples issues with this?

For me, im learning more everyday how to use saw with just a box and a monitor :)

[TotalSonic]

Guys, I wish it were that easy...

To interface a controller the way SAWStudio works with the Mackie... in full automation, bi-directional with modes and alt keys and shift keys and readout interactions... sorry to say... a simple app like that would require a whole staff charged with nothing but tech supporting that one from now till the end of time...

Bob L

Bob -
I believe you've misunderstood a little bit of my request. I, and I believe many controller users, have little interest in the bi-directional feedback from thing like lights from the controller (after all that's what the computer monitor is for!) - and I certainly wasn't imagining the end user being able to have the level of depth that you have given the Mackie Control of. All I'd like to be able to do is assign the knobs on any physical controller I pick up and tie it's midi control messages to the particular virtual control that I wish. Nothing more.

This is really what I'd like to see. Choose from Menu "MIDI Template Listen Mode" - which would place SAW into a template creation mode. Click on a virtual control (i.e. an Aux return fader, or a pan, or a mute, or an eq, - i.e. anything that is automateable and that you have already enabled the option for midi control of) - and then move the physical fader you wish linked. Do this for all the controls you wish linked (which, yes, would be a very time consuming thing - but it would only need to be done once) - and then choose "Save MIDI Template" or "Save MIDI Template as Default".

Anyway - as I stated in my previous post - this kind of "listen and then link to next midi control mesage received" functionality ALREADY EXISTS in another app (and has for a few years now) - which like SAW is coded by a single developer (Richard Hoffmann) - and it needs about 1 paragraph of documentation to explain how to use it in the help file - although it is so intuitive that it doesn't even really need that. Again, I really heartily recommend downloading the demo so you can see this in action - http://www.synapse- audio.com/demo.php?id=1400

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bob L]

Steve,

Of course that kind of simple implementation could be done. But realize that would be a 1 to 1 link, no control chasing, no bank switching, no lights on the controller to signal whether a mute is on or off (unless the controller switch is hard wired to the light, many are not), no control of ranges and things when linking eq controls or compressor controls, although I could implement a rough scaling idea by setting min and max listen modes.

If that kind of simplified implementation of knobs is truly all that is attempted, it could be done directly inside the program without a special app... but, to me, the functionality is so limited in its scope that I never even considered it. :)

I guess I will just never feel that physical hands-on knobs is of any real useful value ever since I have crossed over to the complete virtual console in SAWStudio. :)

Bob L

[ghowardjr]

Well, that kind of "simple" control is basically how most of the other MIDI controllers work with SAW. For example, I use the Fostex digital mixer to control SAW at times. It's pretty straight forward use of faders and pans. However, I would like to get the Behringer control surface when it comes out.

One thing I think hasn't been mentioned is the benefit of using control surfaces for using SAW in live mode. I think it can hardly be argued that in a live mixing environment, having multiple faders to adjust at once is very necessary to stay on top of the mixing.

YMMV, but you've implemented so many user features before, I tend to believe you'll eventually come around... ;)

Thanks,
Gary

[TotalSonic]

Steve,

Of course that kind of simple implementation could be done. But realize that would be a 1 to 1 link, no control chasing, no bank switching, no lights on the controller to signal whether a mute is on or off (unless the controller switch is hard wired to the light, many are not), no control of ranges and things when linking eq controls or compressor controls, although I could implement a rough scaling idea by setting min and max listen modes.

If that kind of simplified implementation of knobs is truly all that is attempted, it could be done directly inside the program without a special app... but, to me, the functionality is so limited in its scope that I never even considered it. :)

I guess I will just never feel that physical hands-on knobs is of any real useful value ever since I have crossed over to the complete virtual console in SAWStudio. :)

Bob L

Bob -
That kind of "simple" control would still give the end user a ton of options!! and would make SAW even more marketable! If it's possible to do and doesn't require that much effort to you - PLEASE PLEASE oh PLEASE make it so!!! :)

Most controllers don't have lights - and frankly I don't need them - I just want to be able to grab a physical knob or fader sometimes to get more tweaks done at oncet than is just possible with a mouse. I know for a fact that there are a LOT of DAW users out there that feel the same way.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

Just to repeat again...

Its like hooking up a second mouse :) Ignore the fact that its faders, or knobs, its just a second mouse. WOuld let us make lightning quick automation changes! Imagine one hand on a fader, one hand on the mouse making selections and moving the cursor or changing hot tracks. Now, even as amazingly quick as saw is, thats a big addition!

[Yura]

Steve!
I ready to join to your GRAND CHOIR with ya!
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yes, understood it's a little bit funny.

To easy to have an idea (by way, not of ours!), but in fact, fo creator - more difficult to be switched to this from another work, mabe much more difficult then to realize it!!!.
Let me say, maby Bob will approve if we ask Jon Marshall to it be connected
to this idea.

:mad: You had to explain the things so clear, so I realy understood how I am helpless in my russian-english, espesialy in thoughts. very hard to explain.:mad:

Whith your hand.

Yura O.

[mghtx]

Well why don't all of you just get a Mackie Control or Baby HUI? I just saw on the SAW site all of the units that work with SAW. If you just want faders and pan knobs ( or even solo and mute ) there are already units that do this.

I'm with Bob on this one. He has explained why he doesn't do it. It's a pain and more trouble than it's worth. Yeah there are some really cool units out now but what are you really looking for? How much control do you want the unit to have? Mackie Control is already set up for it and besides, so many other units just do a copy of the Mackie Control anyway.

[Yura]

Man!
I have Makie. plus Yamaha 03D
We about gifferent things.
just read Steve's writing

All I'd like to be able to do is assign the knobs on any physical controller I pick up and tie it's midi control messages to the particular virtual control that I wish. Nothing more.

[AudioAstronomer]

Well why don't all of you just get a Mackie Control or Baby HUI? I just saw on the SAW site all of the units that work with SAW. If you just want faders and pan knobs ( or even solo and mute ) there are already units that do this.

I'm with Bob on this one. He has explained why he doesn't do it. It's a pain and more trouble than it's worth. Yeah there are some really cool units out now but what are you really looking for? How much control do you want the unit to have? Mackie Control is already set up for it and besides, so many other units just do a copy of the Mackie Control anyway.

The units mentioned have one of two benefits: MUCH lower price. Or many more faders/pan knobs. The mackie control does offer quite nice things for saw, but honestly I feel all those extra knobs and buttons get in the way. That and I had a mackie control before, terrible faders. One even broke on me and mackie did not cover it under warranty!. Just one mans opinion :) After working on my 3rd project in saw studio tonight, Im pretty well set with just a mouse and keyboard... Do you realize I crossfaded almost 75+ punch-in points perfectly in about a minute. No, seriously, one minute. So quick I didnt even have to stop my creative flow to think about it.

[Yura]

Im pretty well set with just a mouse and keyboard... Do you realize I crossfaded almost 75+ punch-in points perfectly in about a minute. No, seriously, one minute.

stop, stop, stop.
you realy do crossfade in 1 minute??? very fast!!!

but I do crossfade in 15 seconds the same amount... only with mouse, without the keyboard.

WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

[AudioAstronomer]

Mark area at splice, x, select new hot track, move marked area, repeat

take about 1 second for the entire list of commands now that Ive gotten used to them.

[Yura]

I go to sleep
phhhhhhhhhh

[mghtx]

VERY cool. There are other units on the SAW list if you don't like the Mackie Control.

[Bob L]

AudioAstronomer,

Good job, now try using Select Mode to select hundreds of entries and softedge them all with one command...

Don't miss out on the MT entry popup properties menu... Alt-Right-Click on any entry... lots of options... the softedge option there will do all selected entries at the same time.

Have fun.

Bob L

[Yura]

AudioAstronomer and mghtx!....
please read the name of this thread.

thanks

Y.O.

[mghtx]

OK. It says "MIDI Control Template Creator." Oh, well that would explain it!

Come on Yura. Have you not read all the post? I've made my point as to the control surface issue haven't I? Go with the flow and learn. Or "go to sleep." :p

[Yura]

Well, than can you explain me what is the sense connection
between your propositions of using other units on
the SAW's list and between an idea of MIDI Control Tmplate Cteation?

I red all posts and there is so clear hanging misunderstanding
of theme lying on the surface.
Steve explained the zest so clear, and it is SO FARRRR from
your or my preferences or un-preferences to Makies, Taskams,
Babys and others.

if I will start to discuss now with AudioAstronomer on broblems
of explosions of stars or the beauty of Corona Borealis - it will
be not much nearer to my and Steve idea
than a question of using or unusing Makie Control with SAW.

But I see here now - this thread is dead already in fact.
and this is not strangely.

So long.

[Bob L]

Yes, this thread is really dead already... :)

We have made our points and the request for a midi controller template generator has been noted...

By the way, many of the controllers out there, especially the cheaper ones, can do simple standard midi controller-7 volume commands and you can control many of them with the already existing General Midi Template in SAWStudio.

There sure are lots of other interesting and powerful things SAWStudio does already that I'm sure could enhance most of the user's session quality and efficiency... time to move on. :)

Bob L