Help separating upright bass and mallet floor tom?

[UpTilDawn]

Hi all.
I'm having difficulty creating space for an upright jazz bass (DI'd) and floor tom played with mallets and played with a kind of rolled-like timpani style in both an upbeat jazz standard and a jazz rendition of a classical piece.

Does anyone have some suggestions on how I might get better separation, yet still retain the character and roundness of each instrument?:confused:

The floor tom buries the bass in a wash of resonance or is flat sounding, or the bass is too loud, or too thin.... that's the results I get so far.:(

The bass was only DI'd and there's only one OH mic on the kit so no matter how I pan the floor tom, most of the sound is still dead center with the bass.

This was a live, outdoor concert performed in a covered, portable stage. The rest of the recording is pretty spot on and the guy that recorded this did a good job, especially with the drums. It's just these two songs that are giving me fits.

DanT

[Perry]

A very successful jazz saxophonist/composer/producer friend of mine might say, "Celebrate it!" And he'd have a 'wicked' grin to go with that statement. In any case, that idea has stuck with me over the years and saves the day sometimes.

There may be some way to 'separate' these things... but the fact that the rest of the recording is 'spot on' suggests that this, to some degree, may be a case of 'it is what it is'. Possibly time to celebrate exactly 'what it is'... perhaps. ;)

If you 'must' separate these then maybe try looking at the frequencies with an analyzer to hopefully find the worst areas of conflict and deal with them accordingly.... and/or use less drum O/H??? Get a bigger hammer.. find a way!

There's the 'head on' approach and there's the 'cunning' approach. Sometimes a problem is only a problem if you decide it is. I remember working with my friend on projects were sometimes as an engineer I would point out something that to me was a problem ; he'd listen always but sometimes would just say, "Naw.. that's not a problem.. we'll just celebrate that one!" :) I didn't always agree but in the end I would have to say that he was generally right at least to some degree and usually completely right.

I'm not suggesting that you except mediocrity by being lazy about it or something... just that you consider various points of view towards the 'problem'. :) Sometimes, particularly for a live recording or live mixing, it's more important to capturer the 'feel' and 'energy' of the event than to go for 'perfection'. At least that's my point of view.

Best of luck with it,

perry

[Warren]

Is it possible to compress a bit just the frequencies that the malloted floor tom is producing only while the mallots are used this could help the stand up, stand up. Might be worth a try but your likely not to get the results you prefer


Just a thought:D

[Fat Cat Music]

Hello,
There are two approaches I have used in the past to deal with a situation like this.

First Approach
- since you said the bass was di'd you actually can move the sound of the bass out of the way
- split the bass into two channels panned far left and far right then delay one of the channels only by .41 - 3.36 milliseconds, you can go to around 11 milliseconds below 100 hz before your ear starts being able to separate the two signals as independent from each other rather than the perception of one stereo image. (in SAW this is easy - just slide the track the necessary number of samples, i.e. 48k sample rate - 20 - 228.8 samples: each sample = .0000208333 seconds, 20.8333 microseconds or .0208333 milliseconds)
- you may need to flip the phase on the delayed track in order to control the potential comb filtering in the upper harmonics.
- Eq the non-delayed track to get the exact sound for the bass you want and then Eq the delayed track to match (or copy and paste in SAW and slide the track)
- you can set the position of the bass by varrying the relative levels of the two tracks.
- then work on the drum track by itself
- find the resonant frequency in the tom sound that is causing the build up and then use that to key a compressor, experiment with the attack and release time until it starts to tame the build up with out pumping the track
- tweak the drum eq using a couple of notch filters tuned to the tonic and dominant of the tune (an eq that allows you to set a Q resulting in about 1/18 - 1/24 of an octave notch width will be the least noticable and the most effective - I still have a couple of Rane "notchametricparalyzers" as they called them that I drag out when doing an analog mix for just this type of problem)
- then mix the bass tracks and the drum tracks

Second approach
- using a two way cross-over split the bass signal into two tracks
- set the cross over frequency to the frequency that matches the drum resonance build-up
- put the upper part of the bass signal in the center where the ear will hear the placement based on the upper partials of the bass sound
- compress the low end part of the bass signal as much as 20-1 then split the resulting channel into two tracks (as above) panned far left and far right, - experiment with phase and delay as needed (flavor to taste:D so to speak)
- you will probably not need to compress the top end of the bass which will result in the impression of retaining the original dynamics of the performance while allowing you to get the bass and drums out of the way of each in the mix
- for added color and dependent upon the style of playing the bassist was using you might even beable to use a sub-harmonic synthesizer on the top end bass track to give you more color otions to play with
- some plug-in sub-harmonic synth patches also allow you to create a syereo signal as well

Hope this helps
DRBurroughs

[UpTilDawn]

Thanks for all the help guys. I expected a variety of methods and I sure got 'em.:)

I'll get some time tomorrow to play with this some more and see what develops.

I was wrong about the OH mic carrying the resonance..... that was me not paying enough attention.:rolleyes: Moving the floor tom more off center has helped a little, but only a little. If I go too far then the kit becomes spread too wide, but that's a start.

The toms on this drum kit really have a nice, rich sound, but also have really long decay times.... gating even a little bit makes them sound unnatural.

I might also get a little mileage out of reducing the level of the vibes mics when he's not playing, which is the majority of both of these songs. But, I'm concerned about changing the sound of the acoustic space if I do that.

Tomorrow will tell, I guess.

danT

[Cary B. Cornett]

Ok, dumb question:
In the actual performance, were the bassist and drummer both actually at the center of the stage? If not, you might start by panning to positions similar to those actually in performance.

Next point: unless your mix is likely to go to vinyl, there is no actual need to force all bass to the center. If it is important to have all low frequencies go to both channels, you could pan the bass to one side and then, in the final output, split to MS, roll off the lows in the "S" channel, then convert back to LR. The bass will still seem to come from the side, but lows are still carried by both channels (something like this was at one time routinely done in LP mastering).

[Fat Cat Music]

By the way Mark,

He said he was trying to save the recording of a live outdoor concert. I do not see any opportunity in that situation to allow changing the arrangement.

All audio recording produces a sonic illusion at best and it would seem prudent to have every tool available to create that illusion.


Trying to solve acoustic instruments sonically melding in a live arrangement by using delays, phase switching, compression and keying and various electronic trickery is a futile attempt. At best it will sound very unnatural, and less desirable than leaving it alone.

Mark

Although improperly applying any technique can result in sonically disturbing results I would hardly call applying physics and acoustic principles to a mix problem electronic trickery. In the acoustic world auditory image placement is both a time domain and amplitude domain dependent phenomenon. He can not return to the scene of the recording and change the arrangement or the current recording, however it is possible to change the time domain in the studio.

Although I should not have to quote sources for this forum I will, as personal experience seems insufficient. The first technique I mentioned was published in an article by Craig Anderton in the early 80's and the second technique came from an article in Recording Producer Engineer magazine in the late 70's. Although thechnology might change acoustic problems remain dependent upon the laws of physics and Mother Nature.

SAW makes this kind of work easier and cleaner than has ever been possible before. I see no reason not to apply analog recording techniques to SAW (or ProTools, Sonar, Nuendo etc. etc. for that matter).

I suppose in the same vein in the analog world, Kepex, Gainbrain, de-essers and other common audio devices might be referred to as audio trickery as well, although many of us thought of them as life savers for real day to day studio work.

Fixing audio issues in live recording often take time and dilligence but most importantly it requires an open ear to the result desired with an analytical mind with which to find the solution available with the tools at hand.

I have earned a good deal of income from finding ways to work audio magic on recordings that have been brought to me over the years. I prefaced my reply by stating these techniques had WORKED in a similar situation.

I suppose it is important to recognise that no piece of audio equipment can be any better than the ears and mind applying them. I expect everyone involved in this forum has both great ears and great minds to work with, after all we are all people that have found SAW and recognise quality when we hear it and use the right tools for the job.

Audio is an example of a true four dimensional space phenomenon with the time domain at leat as important in image creation as amplitude. Although I would posit most engineers make most decisions by "ear" it is important to remember the ear is a better measuring device than any electronics that currently exist.

By posting ideas and techniqes that have worked in the past the future engineers will not have to re-invent the wheel every time they turn on their electronics and hopefully will also not have to repeat the same mistakes either.

"...for music is the nature of the cosmos and I sing the song of creation..."

Have fun
DRBurroughs

[Perry]

Thanks for all the help guys. I expected a variety of methods and I sure got 'em.:)

I'll get some time tomorrow to play with this some more and see what develops.

I was wrong about the OH mic carrying the resonance..... that was me not paying enough attention.:rolleyes: Moving the floor tom more off center has helped a little, but only a little. If I go too far then the kit becomes spread too wide, but that's a start.

The toms on this drum kit really have a nice, rich sound, but also have really long decay times.... gating even a little bit makes them sound unnatural.

I might also get a little mileage out of reducing the level of the vibes mics when he's not playing, which is the majority of both of these songs. But, I'm concerned about changing the sound of the acoustic space if I do that.

Tomorrow will tell, I guess.

danT

Hmmm... what you've said here gives me an idea. Try a transient tool. You could get the fully functional demo from Stillwell here:

http://www.stillwellaudio.com/?page_id=18

And of course there are others available but this one would let you try it for free. You could use one (hopefully) to reduce the sustain of the toms some without totally screwing them up with a gate. You should be able to tighten up the sound a bit without destroying it; maybe even try it on the bass as well.. and/or this might work on other 'live' mics that are carrying the sustain of the toms too long.... whatever works.

Worth a shot! A little bit of this; a little bit of that... shake and stir... :)

Perry

[Tim Miskimon]

I Know you said it was an upright bass but you could try to reamp the bass to give the bass a bit of different character (if the artist doesn't mind).
Don't try to make the bass sound electric - the reamping is just to add some extra tone to the source to move it out of the way of the floor tom.
Try it - it might work...:)

[UpTilDawn]

Ok, dumb question:
In the actual performance, were the bassist and drummer both actually at the center of the stage? If not, you might start by panning to positions similar to those actually in performance.

Since I wasn't there at the time I can't say for certain, but knowing this group and others like them my guess is that the piano was stage left, bass next and tight in next to the piano, or drummer, drummer center stage and vibes to right of center or in front of the drums. The singer was the pianist, so the only center mic was the MC's.

There is no specific reason why the bass couldn't pan to the left some other than the fact that I like the bass to take advantage of the full capacity of an average speaker system by remaining center.

I also have the piano and vibes spread across their respective side channels from about 8 o'clock to center or just beyond (but without sounding too "stereo"). This is giving the very real impression/feeling of sitting out on the lawn listening to the band just far enough back to still hear the stage blended with the PA.

I might try putting the bass a ways to the left, but only if it doesn't ruin the sound stage.



Next point: unless your mix is likely to go to vinyl, there is no actual need to force all bass to the center. If it is important to have all low frequencies go to both channels, you could pan the bass to one side and then, in the final output, split to MS, roll off the lows in the "S" channel, then convert back to LR. The bass will still seem to come from the side, but lows are still carried by both channels (something like this was at one time routinely done in LP mastering).

Something I might try to be sure, but I've not had much need for M-S routines so I'm a little gun shy of the technique. But thanks for the suggestion. It's on the list.

DanT

[UpTilDawn]

It's very nice to see such help from all of you!
I hope that one or a combination of these suggestions will solve this problem and that I pick up a few good pointers for the future in the process.

Since my other pc is tied up with three more hours of video rendering, now is the time for me to get busy and check these all out.

I'll se what happens.
Thanks guys!

DanT

[AcousticGlue]

I Know you said it was an upright bass but you could try to reamp the bass to give the bass a bit of different character (if the artist doesn't mind).
Don't try to make the bass sound electric - the reamping is just to add some extra tone to the source to move it out of the way of the floor tom.
Try it - it might work...:)

I had to reamp a bass once with compeition on drum parts during certain areas of song and forgot about trying phase (and actually chaining is another trial to do). The re-amping, while not particularly what I wanted, did move out of way just enough for drums to come through. This definitely has to do with the arrangement of tune though. Sometimes the artists are not always thinking ahead.

[anatholi]

Search on
www.gearslutz.com (http://www.gearslutz.com)
for Joe Ferla
you will find him answering questions about upright bass etc.

If you haven***180;t heard about him, Joe Ferla and James Farber
are both totally awesome when it comes to recording and mixing jazz.

Peace