Can't solo channels during record

[Dave Labrecque]

Day long location recording gig on Saturday. It all went pretty well, as group by group marched past the mics in the church. One thing caught me off-guard, and I'm still scratching my head over it...

I wasn't even doing "traditional" live mode, but I was providing some foldback during record via SAW's inherent "liveness". I had the piano feeding a couple of hot spots for the vocalists (via Aux 1), and the vocal mics feeding a hot spot for the pianist (via Aux 2). The pianist and vocalists were separated by about 30 feet).

As I solo'd each channel/track while recording, I noticed that anything feeding the auxes was mixed with whichever channel I solo'd in my cans. What gives?

I had mics up on the piano, four hand-helds for vocalists, a stereo pair for the vocalists, and a stereo pair for the room. Soloing any of these had the aux signals (piano and HH mics) superimposed. :confused:

[lofi studios]

run through your set up again please.

something just doesnt ring right ... cant put my finger on it, but i think it might be outputs and allocations .... whats going to what output?

[mikebuzz]

from the manual
Solo Mode

These options select the way in which the solo switches operate.


***216; The Solo In Place (Mutes Other Channels)

This mode is the standard default SAWStudio mode. This mode internally mutes channels that are not soloed, giving a true exact In Place Solo for critical mix decision making. This allows full use of the engine buffer size changing and auto-latency VST compensation capabilities with no problems. This mode is not the preferred mode for recording and monitoring sessions, because using solo switches may affect Aux Send headphone mixes in odd ways.


Sounds like you want to use SOLE BUS and setup a separate device output for Ph. monitoring ??

LAter
Buzz

[Bob L]

You would want to use a solo bus mode... yes... and you can either set it up to use your main device out or a separate one for the headphones... but if you change the device out, make sure it is not the same device that you use to send the aux foldback to... these all need to be separate.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

from the manual
Solo Mode

These options select the way in which the solo switches operate.


Ø The Solo In Place (Mutes Other Channels)

This mode is the standard default SAWStudio mode. This mode internally mutes channels that are not soloed, giving a true exact In Place Solo for critical mix decision making. This allows full use of the engine buffer size changing and auto-latency VST compensation capabilities with no problems. This mode is not the preferred mode for recording and monitoring sessions, because using solo switches may affect Aux Send headphone mixes in odd ways.


Sounds like you want to use SOLE BUS and setup a separate device output for Ph. monitoring ??

LAter
Buzz

I don't think this is it. Yes, I was in this mode, but I was having no problems (that I know of) with the content of the sends. It was the content of what I heard in my cans while soloing various tracks/channels.

On second thought... gee, maybe it was muting the aux (monitor) sends? Ouch. Oh, well. Live and learn. :o No one complained. :eek:

That said, that's not the issue I'm talking about. I'm talking about aux send content appearing mixed with whatever I was soloing. I'm sure I'm missing something, cuz I use Aux sends all the time for reverbs and stuff, and the only way to hear 'em while soloing tracks is to use the shift key. This time I was hearing 'em without the shift key. :confused:

[Dave Labrecque]

Thanks for pointing out these other solo modes, gents. I'm embarassed to say that I only have a vague recollection of hearing about this stuff way back when... Lots of options. Very cool.

I think I figured out my issue. I've never heard this phenomenon before, but any time I've had active sends before while soloing tracks, it was on my desktop system -- not using the Digiface headphone out for monitoring and not assigning aux masters to hardware outputs. I bet the Digiface preset 1 has those hardware outs feeding the headphones. D'oh!

But, wouldn't this indicate that the aux sends were NOT being muted, since I did hear them mixed in with whatever track I was soloing? :confused:

If I could only figure out how TotalMix works. :p

[Dave Labrecque]

run through your set up again please.

something just doesnt ring right ... cant put my finger on it, but i think it might be outputs and allocations .... whats going to what output?

A bunch of mics into a bunch of INs on my ADA8000s. Two piano mics going out Aux 1 to Digiface device 5 (ADA8000 2) to vocal monitors. Four vocal mics going out Aux 2 to Digiface device 6 (ADA8000 2) to pianist's monitor. TotalMix set to preset 1, which sends all device output audio to both the individual, corresponding hardware outs and Digface headphone output bus.

I think I figured it out (see other post), but it seems that the aux master output was not being muted (as heard in my cans) as I solo'd, as I'd expect. Perhaps only return channels are muted during solo-in-place soloing. In that case, maybe I was okay with the monitor feeds. And so I'm not sure what the help file means when it says "...using solo switches may affect Aux Send headphone mixes in odd ways." :confused:

[Cary B. Cornett]

If I could only figure out how TotalMix works. :p I don't use ALL of the features of TotalMix, but I have gotten pretty comfortable with its basic features. I suspect the thing that most confuses people about it is the fact that it is a 52 x 26 mixer, or, if you prefer, a routing switcher with stereo outs and level and pan controls for every possible path. If you try to picture the whole structure at once in your head, you will probably go mad :eek:

The easiest way to wrap your head around it is to think of it as 13 individual
52 x 2 mixers. You first decide which output pair you need to set up a mix for, then look at only that mix. TotalMix offers a way to make this easy: just go to the View menu and check "Submix". You still have 3 rows of faders showing, but now with only one of the output pairs highlighted (OK, actually all the other output pairs are "grayed out", but you get the idea. You can now click on any output pair to see the mix for that pair.

The way RME names things is confusing sometimes. In TotalMix, the 3 rows of faders are called Input, Playback, and Output, but the labels under the Playback faders are all labeled "Out". You have to remember that these labels refer to the output, not of the sound card, but of the playback driver.

TotalMix, when first fired up after install, defaults to a mix scheme where each playback pair is going only to the output pair of the same number, and none of the inputs is fed to any output. If you do not change this setup, signal flow will be exactly as you expect based on how SawStudio is set up. Any change you make from this "default mix" will create changes in signal flow that Saw does not know about, so you have to remember them yourself. My guess is that what hangs a lot of people up is the fact that whatever state TotalMix is left in when closed is what it will default to the next time you open it. In fact, even if you do not open the TotalMix window, the internal DSP in the card is still operating the way you last left it in TotalMix.

So, if you did anything "sneaky" about signal routing in TotalMix during a session, and close TotalMix without clearing your "sneaky settings", those same settings will be in use the next time you fire up your DAW, regardless of which session file you open in Saw. By "sneaky" I mean any setting of TotalMix that alters signal routing from what Saw would lead you to expect.

So...
1) use the Submix option in the View menu, and
2) Either remember to clear your TotalMix settings at the end of the session or remember what those settings are next time you start a session.

HTH

[DominicPerry]

The thing to remember about TotalMix is that it is about OUTs.

What do I want going to my OUTs?

Which physical inputs and which DAW outputs do I want to go to my Real/physical outputs?

Dominic

[Dave Labrecque]

Thank you, Cary. You may very well have created the first fairly comprehensive comprehension I've experienced around TotalMix. I hope it sticks. :p No, seriously, I think I've got a handle on it. The distinction between device outs and hardware outs is crucial and has confounded me. The asymmetry of it is still a bit disconcerting to me (why aren't there separate device ins and hardware ins?), but I think I'm onto something, here. Thanks, again. :)

[Dave Labrecque]

The thing to remember about TotalMix is that it is about OUTs.

What do I want going to my OUTs?

Which physical inputs and which DAW inputs do I want to go to my outputs?

Dominic

Don't you mean "Which physical inputs and which DAW outputs..."?

[DominicPerry]

Don't you mean "Which physical inputs and which DAW outputs..."?
yup, that's what I mean. Changed the original post.

Thanks

Dominic

[Cary B. Cornett]

The distinction between device outs and hardware outs is crucial and has confounded me. Confound it, the distinction is actually between device outs and DRIVER outs! :) The sneaky bit is that what the driver tells the application (Saw) is a device output is actually a MIXER INPUT. The crucial distinction is that, with any RME device that has TotalMix, there is always a hardware DSP mixer interposed between the device driver and the actual physical output port. That mixer is active "under the hood" even when the TotalMix window is not open. This makes it easy to forget about the mixer, which is where some of us get into trouble (yes, including me).
The asymmetry of it is still a bit disconcerting to me (why aren't there separate device ins and hardware ins?)... You mean device ins and driver ins, or perhaps hardware ins and driver ins, but RME apparently assumes that there will never be a need to mix/matrix device inputs to driver inputs. Actually, I could see an occasional use for that ability, but it is not as important as the output submix/routing capability. Besides, considering how confusing the output mix/matrix is for many users, just IMAGINE the added confusion if such dangerously versatile routing were extended to application inputs... madness! :eek: :p :rolleyes:

There seems to be this Germanic thing about use of language that, once they have decided what particular terms mean, they assume everyone else should be able to assume the same meanings. I once had an argument with Matthias over what I considered a misleading use of the terms "Lock" and "Sync"... and Matthias didn't budge. :mad: :rolleyes:

In any case, I am glad to be able to help. I guess one of my talents is translating from English to English :D

[Dave Labrecque]

Confound it, the distinction is actually between device outs and DRIVER outs! :) The sneaky bit is that what the driver tells the application (Saw) is a device output is actually a MIXER INPUT. The crucial distinction is that, with any RME device that has TotalMix, there is always a hardware DSP mixer interposed between the device driver and the actual physical output port. That mixer is active "under the hood" even when the TotalMix window is not open. This makes it easy to forget about the mixer, which is where some of us get into trouble (yes, including me). You mean device ins and driver ins, or perhaps hardware ins and driver ins, but RME apparently assumes that there will never be a need to mix/matrix device inputs to driver inputs. Actually, I could see an occasional use for that ability, but it is not as important as the output submix/routing capability. Besides, considering how confusing the output mix/matrix is for many users, just IMAGINE the added confusion if such dangerously versatile routing were extended to application inputs... madness! :eek: :p :rolleyes:

There seems to be this Germanic thing about use of language that, once they have decided what particular terms mean, they assume everyone else should be able to assume the same meanings. I once had an argument with Matthias over what I considered a misleading use of the terms "Lock" and "Sync"... and Matthias didn't budge. :mad: :rolleyes:

In any case, I am glad to be able to help. I guess one of my talents is translating from English to English :D

:D All very well said. OK, bonus question:

When NOT in submix mode, how the heck do you interpret/use the TotalMix interface for all those discrete "mixers"?

[Cary B. Cornett]

When NOT in submix mode, how the heck do you interpret/use the TotalMix interface for all those discrete "mixers"? I just upgraded the processor on my DAW, and haven't wired it back up yet, so I can't look...

That said, once I found "submix" mode I never looked back, since that mode does not change the capabilities of the mixer at all, only offers and different (better, IMO) user interface... er... behavior.

I hope to check this out more later today.

[Carlos Mills]

I second Carry's tip: always use submix mode with TotalMix.
Also, a good practice is to save your default set up in one of the quick presets (1-8, just under the submix menu). It is a safe way to quickly go back to your daily preset.

[Carlos Mills]

Answering your question, Dave,


:bonus question:
When NOT in submix mode, how the heck do you interpret/use the TotalMix interface for all those discrete "mixers"?

When NOT in submix mode, you have to read at the bottom of each fader, where it is being sent to.
For instance, channel 1 - INPUT (top row of faders - it shows what is coming from your hardware input 1) might be addressed to your Studio Monitor OUTPUTs (Analog L & Analog R, for example, at the bottom row of TotalMix). The same would apply to channel 2 - PLAYBACK (middle row of faders - it shows what is coming from your software playback output 2). It could be addressed to any of the available OUTPUTs (bottom row of faders in TotalMix). In sum, all this flexibility can be very confusing if you do NOT use SUBMIX mode.
General rule is that you can address any INPUT Channel (from hardware - top row - and from your software playback - middle row - to any (or all) OUTPUT channel (bottom row). Of course INPUT and OUTPUT here are seen from the console (TotalMix) perspective.

p.s. As Cary said, the word OUT, at the bottom of the middle row, can be misleading. Middle row shows what is coming from your software outputs and is being addressed, according to TotalMix settings, to TotalMix Outputs (bottom row of faders).