CSG problem...help

[sebastiandybing]

Lately the CSG comes with a message telling me that "Pleae either clear the
marked area, or set to encompass the hole cd layout. Files will not be generated."
The problem is that I don't have any marked area, and even if I marked the
hole area CSG still come with this message.

I have tryed all the usual things like removing all inserted plugins, and running
the session in 16 bit instead og 24bit, but it does not help.

Another thing is after such message I can not start playback in the multitrack, but the soundfile window works fine ?????

My own idea is that maybe this problem started after a RME madicard driver update, but somehow it does not sound as the problem ? but who knows.

The good thing is if I mixdown the regions and open a new session and place
the mix file on the timeline, the CSG works as it should.
But that is a ekstra step I would be without if I could.

Sebastian

[TotalSonic]

Lately the CSG comes with a message telling me that "Pleae either clear the
marked area, or set to encompass the hole cd layout. Files will not be generated."
The problem is that I don't have any marked area, and even if I marked the
hole area CSG still come with this message.

I have tryed all the usual things like removing all inserted plugins, and running
the session in 16 bit instead og 24bit, but it does not help.

Another thing is after such message I can not start playback in the multitrack, but the soundfile window works fine ?????

My own idea is that maybe this problem started after a RME madicard driver update, but somehow it does not sound as the problem ? but who knows.

The good thing is if I mixdown the regions and open a new session and place
the mix file on the timeline, the CSG works as it should.
But that is a ekstra step I would be without if I could.

Sebastian

Sebastian -
The error message is deliberate and unfortunately necessary. It will occur if the END marker is placed past the last sound file's end point (which is something that I like to do for most CD masters by a couple seconds or so as that way the sound of the CD player powering down doesn't happen immediately after the last note is heard).

To get around the message and have your cue sheet image built properly in these cases you need to exit from the error message, use the "B" key to mark at "0:00:00," navigate with CSG to the "END" point and hit the "E" key to mark your end point - and THEN choose "Build Mix to FX"

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bud Johnson]

Sebastian -
The error message is deliberate and unfortunately necessary. It will occur if the END marker is placed past the last sound file's end point (which is something that I like to do for most CD masters by a couple seconds or so as that way the sound of the CD player powering down doesn't happen immediately after the last note is heard).

To get around the message and have your cue sheet image built properly in these cases you need to exit from the error message, use the "B" key to mark at "0:00:00," navigate with CSG to the "END" point and hit the "E" key to mark your end point - and THEN choose "Build Mix to FX"

Best regards,
Steve Berson


Couldn't you add a blank region 2 seconds after the last note and use that as your end point?
Bud Johnson

[TotalSonic]

Couldn't you add a blank region 2 seconds after the last note and use that as your end point?
Bud Johnson

Yes - you can - and that would allow you to avoid having to mark the beginning and ending points prior to the Buil Mix to FX. Either way will work!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Richard Rupert]

[quote=TotalSonic;To get around the message and have your cue sheet image built properly in these cases you need to exit from the error message, use the "B" key to mark at "0:00:00," navigate with CSG to the "END" point and hit the "E" key to mark your end point - and THEN choose "Build Mix to FX"

Best regards,
Steve Berson[/quote]

I do not intentionally mark beginning or end points. I will say, however, that I occasionally have somehow created a marked area not starting at the beginning, and it really throws off the build mix. I have then (without checking the generated file), burned a CD that starts where ever the marked area happened to begin (I think so, anyway). I guess this is a result of the way SAWStudio functions, but it would be nice if in the case of using CSG the file ALWAYS contained all the audio regions from 0:00:00 to the end of the last region. I had written to Jon about this some time ago, but apparently only one other CSG user has experienced this (Kimbo), and Jon was unable to recreate the problem. Anybody else find this happening?

[TotalSonic]

I do not intentionally mark beginning or end points. I will say, however, that I occasionally have somehow created a marked area not starting at the beginning, and it really throws off the build mix. I have then (without checking the generated file), burned a CD that starts where ever the marked area happened to begin (I think so, anyway). I guess this is a result of the way SAWStudio functions, but it would be nice if in the case of using CSG the file ALWAYS contained all the audio regions from 0:00:00 to the end of the last region. I had written to Jon about this some time ago, but apparently only one other CSG user has experienced this (Kimbo), and Jon was unable to recreate the problem. Anybody else find this happening?

My understanding was that Jon added in the error message to happen when a marked area did not start from 0:00 in order to prevent problems such as yours happening. This way you're alerted of an incorrectly marked area and you can clear it. I believe that to change the behavior of CSG from the 2 compromises he made (i.e. error alert if marked area does not start from 0:00, necessity of having a marked area from 0:00 to END marker if the end marker is past end of last region) would require a bit more coding than he is able to put towards the matter.

fwiw - As it exists currently I've been able to get Red Book spec compliant CD-R masters with an excellent track record of replication plant acceptance from CSG without a problem.

I do know that Jon is aware of a few small bugs in that latest CSG 1.9.1 update and wants to fix these but doesn't have time yet. I also again don't think he lurks here that much - so if there are other bug finds or concerns you have you should just email him directly at jon at jms-audioware dot com

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bob L]

Richard,

Always look at the Marked Area display at the top of the MT when performing operations that are area sensitive.... if there is a small unintentional area marked somewhere, the display will show a value... otherwise it will display dashed lines.

You can always get in the habit of clearing any marked area with a right-click in the timeline ruler area or by pressing the C key from inside the MT.

Bob L

[sebastiandybing]

Thanks Steve,
I just move the end mark to the of the region, and that did the trick.
It is good to know why, I just wish CSG could come up with a more precise
message.
the fun thing is that I normally make fade outs
in automation mode, but when I am in a hurry I just use softege, and what do I get...trouble.
Anyway thanks for the info.

Sebastian

[Dave Labrecque]

Thanks Steve,
I just move the end mark to the of the region, and that did the trick.
It is good to know why, I just wish CSG could come up with a more precise
message.
the fun thing is that I normally make fade outs
in automation mode, but when I am in a hurry I just use softege, and what do I get...trouble.
Anyway thanks for the info.

Sebastian

I agree. Why would this message appear? It has nothing to do with the issue. Very confusing. I'm still not clear on what the problem with having the END index outside of the last region, anyway. :confused:

Mr. B?

[Richard Rupert]

Richard,

Always look at the Marked Area display at the top of the MT when performing operations that are area sensitive.... if there is a small unintentional area marked somewhere, the display will show a value... otherwise it will display dashed lines.

You can always get in the habit of clearing any marked area with a right-click in the timeline ruler area or by pressing the C key from inside the MT.

Bob L
Yes, Bob... that is good advice, and I need to "get in the habit" as you suggest.

Another very odd behavior experienced apparently only by Kimbo and myself is ending up with a "Build Mix to Fx in CSG" file that has the last song in the timeline end up "on top of" (playing concurrently with) the first song. That's actually the experience Kimbo and I wrote Jon about, but neither of us had the presence of mind under client scrutiny to save a "problem" .edl and send it to Jon per his request. I'm not certain that would have helped him anyway, as we could render a new build mix file immediately from the same .edl and have it work perfectly. I think what we were doing is this: we had unintentionally highlighted an area, and then "accidentally" cleared the area before a successful build mix. So the .edl was unchanged, but the Build Mix to Fx worked.

That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it. :)
Unless of course, someone sheds some REAL light on what's been happening. :D

[TotalSonic]

I agree. Why would this message appear? It has nothing to do with the issue. Very confusing. I'm still not clear on what the problem with having the END index outside of the last region, anyway. :confused:

Mr. B?

Dave -
The message HAS to appear in order to deal with the fact that a mix can not be built in SAWStudio past the last region unless an area is marked!! i.e. if you build a mix without any marked area it goes from the start of the session to the end of the last active region (including a blank region).

SO:
the error message informs people what they need to do in order to properly build the mix to a cue sheet image if:
1) the beginning marked area is not at 0:00:00 (the marked area must start at the very beginning of the timeline for a proper cue sheet image to be built!)
2) the END mark is past the last active region (so that this area must be marked from 0:00 in order for the end section to be properly built past the last active region)

In other words Jon came up with an easier to code solution to make sure people would not waste time creating bad cue sheet images due to their operator error not taking into account the default behavior of SAWStudio.

Despite this imho CSG works very well in doing its job as long as the operator is aware of these things. The error message helps in providing this awareness.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave -
The message HAS to appear in order to deal with the fact that a mix can not be built in SAWStudio past the last region unless an area is marked!! i.e. if you build a mix without any marked area it goes from the start of the session to the end of the last active region (including a blank region).

SO:
the error message informs people what they need to do in order to properly build the mix to a cue sheet image if:
1) the beginning marked area is not at 0:00:00 (the marked area must start at the very beginning of the timeline for a proper cue sheet image to be built!)
2) the END mark is past the last active region (so that this area must be marked from 0:00 in order for the end section to be properly built past the last active region)

In other words Jon came up with an easier to code solution to make sure people would not waste time creating bad cue sheet images due to their operator error not taking into account the default behavior of SAWStudio.

Despite this imho CSG works very well in doing its job as long as the operator is aware of these things. The error message helps in providing this awareness.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

OK, I get it. But I think the warning should be written in a way that better communicates what's going on. Unless you fully understand the requirements, the message seems inappropriate IMO. To me, "entire CD layout" doesn't make it clear that that means we need to enclose indexes beyond the last region. Thus, people asking why this prompt is coming up. Plus, it sounds like it's saying we have a choice, regardless of circumstances, to either clear the marked area, or encompass the whole thing, and either choice will work. Well, I chose the former, and it still didn't work! :) Seriously, that's how I thought it was meant.

Maybe we can suggest something worded differently to Jon in order to avoid this confusion in the future. How 'bout:

Please either clear the marked area, or, if you have an index(es) after the last region, mark the entire CD layout to include the last index.
Though, I think it'd be much more elegant if CSG recognized the start and end indexes and marked the whole CD layout automatically, perhaps behind the scenes, so that the MT doesn't get cluttered with it. Maybe this is the extra coding that Jon's not had time for. :)

[TotalSonic]

OK, I get it. But I think the warning should be written in a way that better communicates what's going on. Unless you fully understand the requirements, the message seems inappropriate IMO. To me, "entire CD layout" doesn't make it clear that that means we need to enclose indexes beyond the last region.

Well - if you take a second to think about how both cue sheets and SAW's Build mix routines function it makes perfect sense. But I can indeed see where many users would not know this.



Thus, people asking why this prompt is coming up. Plus, it sounds like it's saying we have a choice, regardless of circumstances, to either clear the marked area, or encompass the whole thing, and either choice will work. Well, I chose the former, and it still didn't work! :) Seriously, that's how I thought it was meant.

Well - if the END point does in fact coincide with the end of the last region and you have the beginning marked after 0:00 then clearing the marked area will indeed work! SO in some cases there is in fact a choice - just not always.




Maybe we can suggest something worded differently to Jon in order to avoid this confusion in the future. How 'bout:

Please either clear the marked area, or, if you have an index(es) after the last region, mark the entire CD layout to include the last index.


Sure - whatever additional info would clarify the error message might be a nice thing to have.



Though, I think it'd be much more elegant if CSG recognized the start and end indexes and marked the whole CD layout automatically, perhaps behind the scenes, so that the MT doesn't get cluttered with it. Maybe this is the extra coding that Jon's not had time for. :)

Well - there not being a DL or SMB Audioware out there offering SAW native plugins - you and I do not know what kind of efforts would be required to get a plugin to work differently than SAW's Build Mix routines - which again require a region present to the end point of any mix being built to an unmarked area - in order to keep the audio engine active for that track up to the end point of the built area. In other words - I don't think Jon can make the plugin do things that SAW does not want it to do!

Anyway - I know at this point Jon's had no time for coding to fix a number of BFG and (very minor) CSG bugs that he's already aware of and has told me he would like to fix. BUT again - you can always email him directly at jon at jms-audioware dot com with any suggestions - and he's seriously one of the nicest guys around there so you don't have to be shy about doing this - and if it's a good idea and he can find a moment perhaps he can implement the suggestion.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Dave Labrecque]

Well - if you take a second to think about how both cue sheets and SAW's Build mix routines function it makes perfect sense. But I can indeed see where many users would not know this.

You're right. I think my calling the prompt verbiage 'inappropriate' was... um... inappropriate. :p Nevertheless, the message just didn't work for me, and, it appears, for others.




Well - if the END point does in fact coincide with the end of the last region and you have the beginning marked after 0:00 then clearing the marked area will indeed work! SO in some cases there is in fact a choice - just not always. Right. But, again, I misunderstood the prompt. I thought he was saying either choice would solve the problem, which isn't necessarily the case. Call it linquistic ergonomics. ;)





Well - there not being a DL or SMB Audioware out there offering SAW native plugins - you and I do not know what kind of efforts would be required to get a plugin to work differently than SAW's Build Mix routines - which again require a region present to the end point of any mix being built to an unmarked area - in order to keep the audio engine active for that track up to the end point of the built area. In other words - I don't think Jon can make the plugin do things that SAW does not want it to do! Well, it seems to me that if he can make BFG mark an area according to user input to the plug-in, I'm bettin' he can make CSG do the same. :)


Anyway - I know at this point Jon's had no time for coding to fix a number of BFG and (very minor) CSG bugs that he's already aware of and has told me he would like to fix. BUT again - you can always email him directly at jon at jms-audioware dot com with any suggestions - and he's seriously one of the nicest guys around there so you don't have to be shy about doing this - and if it's a good idea and he can find a moment perhaps he can implement the suggestion.Yeah, I write to him now and again. He freakin' loves me. Like Bob loves me, only less so. :p I know the drill. Thanks. :)

[TotalSonic]

I'm really not clear on whether or not Jon has time for more coding. There haven't been enough posts about this.:confused:

Mark

Sorry Mark - I hate being massively redundant here also - but seems lately there's been a lot of people not looking at beyond the last post in a thread (i.e. the recent redundant threads on this one problem posted pretty much one after the other) - and honestly for this particular issue going round and round on it doesn't matter a hill of beans if the request for a "fix" isn't sent directly to the one person who can fix it - and I wanted people to be aware of when it's reasonable to expect any changes based on recent communications with Jon. So - sorry to be a broken record here - but seems people are addressing their posts in the wrong place if they actually want a change instead of just venting.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Dave Labrecque]

Sorry Mark - I hate being massively redundant here also - but seems lately there's been a lot of people not looking at beyond the last post in a thread (i.e. the recent redundant threads on this one problem posted pretty much one after the other) - and honestly for this particular issue going round and round on it doesn't matter a hill of beans if the request for a "fix" isn't sent directly to the one person who can fix it - and I wanted people to be aware of when it's reasonable to expect any changes based on recent communications with Jon. So - sorry to be a broken record here - but seems people are addressing their posts in the wrong place if they actually want a change instead of just venting.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

I think sometimes it's good to talk to others on the forum to refine our issue/beef, before hitting Jon with it. I hope you agree, S.B. :) You are, afterall, usually instrumental in the successful execution of that process. And we appreciate it!

[TotalSonic]

Well, it seems to me that if he can make BFG mark an area according to user input to the plug-in, I'm bettin' he can make CSG do the same. :)

I'm pretty sure the reason BFG came about as a new plugin was that it was just a heckuva lot easier for him to code something new from scratch that could function as you describe as I believe CSG has certain "behaviors" that changing would pretty much break it. A Cue Sheet is essentially linear - so I'd imagine creating software that creates an in spec Cue Sheet image not to be strictly linear as well would require a good bit of tweaking.

Anyway - I've discussed with him a number of major changes that would be great to have in a 2.0 version of CSG (basically having all CD Text info for all tracks be displayed and editable from a single page instead of having to pop open a dialog box for each track, along with being able to use the same single page to display and edit ISRC, UPC/MCN - AND being able to move track & pause indexes from the same single page by just typing in the time value number you wish to place them). He liked these ideas but couldn't get around to this big of a rewrite - hence version 1.9.1 as a "quick fix" with some (to me at least) VERY useful feature enhancements (I've gained about 15 minutes back in every day from not having to copy/paste ISRC's and Track Artist CD Text fields anymore).

I think it would be cool to add Locate & Control Track marker import to a version 2 as well - along with fixing the available hard drive space display that seems to have gotten broken in the 1.9.1 update - AND getting a better handling of dealing with the 2 potential things that create the current error message in question. Maybe if enough folks here write to Jon and let him know we'd be willing to pay for an upgrade to a 2.0 version he'd get onto it sooner than later.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[TotalSonic]

I think sometimes it's good to talk to others on the forum to refine our issue/beef, before hitting Jon with it. I hope you agree, S.B. :)

I do!



You are, afterall, usually instrumental in the successful execution of that process. And we appreciate it!

Only cause I'd persistently bug him every month or so with another (polite!) email half-whining about how cool a CSG update would be.

I did buy the last JMS plugin that I didn't own before (the Program Compressor) in appreciation of the CSG 1.9.1 update though. I'm pretty sure the $75 doesn't adequately reimburse him for the coding time though!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[UpTilDawn]

... Maybe if enough folks here write to Jon and let him know we'd be willing to pay for an upgrade to a 2.0 version he'd get onto it sooner than later.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

I had never looked at it that way........ Maybe you're right.
I just assumed that Jon Knows how much we all love using CSG and how great it is to have such a useful tool integrated with Saw so nicely..... and that any enhancements he can make to it would be well worth an upgrade price.

DanT

[TotalSonic]

I had never looked at it that way........ Maybe you're right.
I just assumed that Jon Knows how much we all love using CSG and how great it is to have such a useful tool integrated with Saw so nicely..... and that any enhancements he can make to it would be well worth an upgrade price.

DanT

I'm pretty sure Jon made his array of plugins as tools for himself and for the joy of sharing something cool for others as the return from their sale was more like bonus lunch money. Still, maybe knowing that there's a batch of people who appreciate his work and are willing to kick in a little might help to light a spark under the kindling, so to speak.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Dave Labrecque]

I'm pretty sure the reason BFG came about as a new plugin was that it was just a heckuva lot easier for him to code something new from scratch that could function as you describe as I believe CSG has certain "behaviors" that changing would pretty much break it. A Cue Sheet is essentially linear - so I'd imagine creating software that creates an in spec Cue Sheet image not to be strictly linear as well would require a good bit of tweaking.

You've lost me, here. What's not linear about any of this? And how could adding a bit of code to mark the area from the start to the last index be a complex thing (let alone break the plug-in)? If I can write a macro do do it, I'm bettin' Jon could make it happen prior to build mix.


Anyway - I've discussed with him a number of major changes that would be great to have in a 2.0 version of CSG (basically having all CD Text info for all tracks be displayed and editable from a single page instead of having to pop open a dialog box for each track, along with being able to use the same single page to display and edit ISRC, UPC/MCN - AND being able to move track & pause indexes from the same single page by just typing in the time value number you wish to place them). He liked these ideas but couldn't get around to this big of a rewrite - hence version 1.9.1 as a "quick fix" with some (to me at least) VERY useful feature enhancements (I've gained about 15 minutes back in every day from not having to copy/paste ISRC's and Track Artist CD Text fields anymore). Man, you sound like business is good! :)

[Dave Labrecque]

Only cause I'd persistently bug him every month or so with another (polite!) email half-whining about how cool a CSG update would be.

Well, that's nice, too. :p But, I meant that you help us by clarifying a lot of the functionality that we may not fully understand. Certainly that's been the case for me.

[IraSeigel]

Well, that's nice, too. :p But, I meant that you help us by clarifying a lot of the functionality that we may not fully understand. Certainly that's been the case for me.

Me, too! Thanks for the tutorial and your contributions here, Steve.

And probably sending Jon some emails directly, instead of hoping he sees these threads, is a good idea, too. His work is very appreciated.

Cheers,
Ira