Never Tried TCP/IP - Better try it Now!

[HapHazzard]

Howdy all,

In preperation of SAC, I figuried I'd better try TCP/IP.....Wow!:eek:

I had no idea how simple that was.

If you never tried this, get your PC and a second PC/notepad, find or buy a multi port router and go nuts.

To make it simpler, I renamed the two pc I was working with to "master" and "roadie". gave them a group, "Loud". After the reboot I made sure I could see the other PC in the network.

Opened a project> Activated Host/Master
Went to the other PC and activated "Remote Mode". Put in the host name (master), Clicked on the start transport and music started playing from the other room!

Oh man, that was too simple:D.
Thanks BOB!!!
I'm making some Cat5e ASAP

Hap

[Bob L]

Good... now put up a multi-track project and start mixing from the remote... using all the views and F-Keys.. that will give you a sense of what SAC will be about.

Bob L

[IraSeigel]

If you never tried this, get your PC and a second PC/notepad, find or buy a multi port router and go nuts.

Hap

Hap, just a quick question. Many multi-port routers are available with wireless, at almost no additional cost. If you had a wireless router, what do you think your experience would have been (assuming one of your computers is a laptop)? 802.11g is most common now, with 802.11n coming into mainstream use.

Thanks,
Ira

[Warren]

I am sure it would work using 802.11 but even going from "g" to N" I don't think will get you past 10 meg, staying with cat 5 or 6 full duplex 100 or faster is the way to go.

Not sure but at wireless speeds refresh might be slow

Maybe a 9600 baud modem?:eek: :D
After tweeking with maybe a wireless connect will work OK sorry for the BLA BLA BLA Ahh I'll shutup know

[HapHazzard]

My first try was at work using the workstations with SSdemos and the demo project. We have 100 base Hubs (a lot of hubs). I had alittle trouble getting them to see each other, so I went home to try.

At home I have a 4 port Linksys EtherCable/DSL Router
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MYKJ03NAL._AA280_.jpg
I Just plugged into the ports with straight cables and turned off the DSL modem (just to be safe) and I was ready.

1. I setup a group the SS workstations
2. I used simple naming. FOH, Master, Mon1, Mon2, Core1, Core2 and so on. That way I could see whos on line in the LAN.

I sure that wireless would worked the same. But I would look into upgrading to max the range like...
http://www.cnetusa.com/images/CWP-903_350.gif
Or
http://www.cnetusa.com/images/COA-05Om_300w.jpg

If it covers:

Routing Protocols
Static & Dynamic Routing with TCP/IP, VPN passthrough (IPSec, L2TP) NAT, UDP, RIP-1, RIP-2,PPTP, PPPoE, DNS, DHCP (client & server)And/or has:

Interface Specifications
LAN: 4 ports 10/100 Mbps (auto-sensing) Ethernet, RJ-45Wireless....will those things still drive me nuts "But" I am going to try a setup soon!

Hap

[HapHazzard]

Get one of these!
Grrrrrrrrrr! :eek: scare'm all
http://www.geocities.com/samuelgoh21/WRT330N.jpg
Internet-sharing Router and 4-port Gigabit Switch, with a built-in speed and range enhanced Wireless Access Point
Optimizer for time-sensitive applications provides reduced game lag and cleaner sounding VoIP calls
MIMO technology uses multiple radios to create a robust signal that travels up to 4 times farther and reduces dead spots
Up to 12 times faster than Wireless-G, but also works great with Wireless-G and -B devicesI knew the gamers would force something into the market.

Hap

[IraSeigel]

I have seen this Belkin N1 in operation, and it seems to work great. There's a little less expensive one, too (US$140 vs US$180).

http://catalog.belkin.com/images/product/F5D8232-4/FUL1_F5D8232-4.jpg
Ira

[HapHazzard]

Ya Mark,
Somedays it's good and other it's bad!

I think, for time being, I'll stay with wire and the Netgear GS105 looks like a good candidate.


http://www.netgear.com/upload/product/gs105/enus_front-lores_product_gs105.jpg

Performance
Bandwidth: 10 Gbps (non-blocking)
Forward Rate (10 Mbps port): 14,800 packets/sec
Forward Rate (100 Mbps port): 148,000 packets/sec
Forward Rate (1000 Mbps port): 1,480,000 packets/sec
Network Latency (100 to 100 Mbps): 20 ***956;s (max)
Network Latency (1000 to 1000 Mbps): 10 ***956;s (max)
Queue Buffer Memory: 12 kbytes per port
MAC address database: 4,000
Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF): 91,500 hours (~10 years)Later, after a few inquiries and trial runs I might try wireless. I've installed one wireless LAN at a packing plant in no-mans land and had nothing but trouble. Had hyper directional antennas pointing at every node. Found out it was an employ with a alarm system from h*ll and all he had to do was park near an antenna. But I still think it was the FBI surveillance plant.:cool: LOL

Working with Steve and the Digigram/Inovason stuff has got me more in touch with their wirless and wired systems. He wants to go with...
http://www.whirlwindusa.com/i1/ebeam2.jpg
Laser to FOH!!!:eek:

Whirlwind makes industrial Cat5 cables that will suite my needs for sometime. Plus I need to start out as simple as possible.
http://www.whirlwindusa.com/i1/eb100.jpg
Hap

[jazzboxmaker]

You can never tell- I had 2 Netgear Gigabyte Lan cards in 2 different machines go belly up on me after less than a year, they were cheap though:rolleyes:

[AudioAstronomer]

All this talk of routers and such...

Has anyone emailed any of the companies and told them what you plan to do, what you expect and what you need from the device... and asked for their suggestions?

[IraSeigel]

What's the difference between a switch (like Hap's) and a router (like Mark's)?

(no, not asking for the punchline!)

Ira

[ambler]

I can certainly see advantages in wireless, especially to move my laptop around, but all my computers would need to be updated with wireless ports....Mark

You don't have to add wireless ports to all your computers. You can add a wireless connection for your laptop to your existing wired network without having to change anything else.

Mark

[ambler]

Correct, with an upgraded router, which will likely be obsolete by the end of the week.:) My laptop is so old I can't imagine throwing any money at it. Anything new would probably have wireless built in.

All in due time.

Mark

When you get your new laptop ;) you can probably get them to throw in a wireless access point. Just plug that into your existing router/switch.

Mark

[UpTilDawn]

Hmmmm. Interesting. I didn't know that was possible.

mark

My sister just did that on a new laptop her husband picked up cheap... Works like a charm for them.

[Pedro Itriago]

I had to dump a netgear gigabit hub. It was painfull to see the network performance go down with that thing. Packet collision galore.

[HapHazzard]

Switch, Hub or Router?

After doing a little reading and emailing Ken (Digigram / Innovason Ethersound) it somes down to Switches. Do not use Hubs. That must be why I did trouble trying out the TCP/IP here at work where we have nothing but hubs.

Simple put,

Hub = A hub is a single bus repeater that simply repeats the signal it receives to the number of outputs. Hubs work like an old-fashion “party-line” telephone system and are bandwidth inefficient. The reality is that hubs are dated and you will see few in operation.

Switch = Hubs were replaced by the switch which operating as a multi-bus repeater. Switches are smart hubs that filter, forward, and floods frames based on the destination address of each frame. Switches work like a modern switched telephone system.

Router = A hardware device to connect 2 or more networks at the IP layer to route data across several networks.

Both switches and hubs operate at the data-link layer (layer 2), while routers operate at Layer 3.


So a switch like the Netgear FS100 ($24 for 8 ports at Tigerdirect) is what is needed to perform the duties in ethernet.
http://images.tigerdirect.com/skuimages/large/N100-1400-main.jpg

Ken sent me this PDF file that explains alittle of what ethersound is doing and it makes for good reading on standards used for ethersound which can be applied here.

ES PDF Link (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejvanhornrlh/Ethersound/BuildingESnetworks_v2.0.pdf)

At least in SAC's case we won't have to get into the madness of routing Upstream and Downstream

Now if you want to include internet to the ethernet, than a router is would be what is needed, but Ken said No,No,No!

Hap

[IraSeigel]

Switch, Hub or Router?
...
Hap




This is great info, Hap. Thanks for taking the time to get the real scoop. Please thank Ken for us when you contact him again.

So all switches are hubs, but not all hubs are switches, I guess. And routers can act as switches, but add another layer of functionality (?). So for the KISS principle, the switch is the best. As you stated.

Regards,
Ira

[HapHazzard]

This is great info, Hap. Thanks for taking the time to get the real scoop. Please thank Ken for us when you contact him again.

So all switches are hubs, but not all hubs are switches, I guess. And routers can act as switches, but add another layer of functionality (?). So for the KISS principle, the switch is the best. As you stated.

Regards,
Ira

That's what he said - Switches

Hap

[IraSeigel]

Ya Mark,
Somedays it's good and other it's bad!

I think, for time being, I'll stay with wire and the Netgear GS105 looks like a good candidate.


http://www.netgear.com/upload/product/gs105/enus_front-lores_product_gs105.jpg

Performance

Bandwidth: 10 Gbps (non-blocking)
Forward Rate (10 Mbps port): 14,800 packets/sec
Forward Rate (100 Mbps port): 148,000 packets/sec
Forward Rate (1000 Mbps port): 1,480,000 packets/sec
Network Latency (100 to 100 Mbps): 20 ***956;s (max)
Network Latency (1000 to 1000 Mbps): 10 ***956;s (max)
Queue Buffer Memory: 12 kbytes per port
MAC address database: 4,000
Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF): 91,500 hours (~10 years)
Hap

Hap, you might want to look into the Netgear Gigabit switches a little more. Other buyers have had problems with their Gigabit switches, whereas the Megabit switches seem to work great. Check here for some feedback:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122111

In another post, you mentioned the FS100. I believe Netgear is now selling an FS105 and FS108, which look similar. (again, check the Newegg.com link above)

Do you see any advantage to Gigabit Ethernet over Megabit Ethernet in this application? Seems like Netgear's Gigabit gear is dicey. If you say gigabit is needed over megabit, is there another company with more reliable gear than Netgear?

Cheers,
Ira

[IraSeigel]

Ken sent me this PDF file that explains alittle of what ethersound is doing and it makes for good reading on standards used for ethersound which can be applied here.

ES PDF Link (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejvanhornrlh/Ethersound/BuildingESnetworks_v2.0.pdf)

Hap




Hap, I can't get this link to work. It keeps crashing my IE. Could you email me the file? Or repost it to another web address (your website, e.g.)?

Also, my brother who is a networking guru in the Denver, Colorado area recommends this Linksys unit for this application: http://www.newegg.com:80/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833124016
The feedback seems to be positive.

Thanks,
Ira
IraSeigel@hotmail.com

[Bob L]

DLink Gigabit switchers is what I have been using with great results.

Bob L

[Ollie]

Bob,
Which switch by them? There are lots of them in various price ranges.

Was it the DGS-2208 > 8-Port 10/100/1000 Desktop Switch ?

[HapHazzard]

DLink Gigabit switchers is what I have been using with great results.

Bob L
I was just looking into D-Link.

Digigram shows D-Link as one of the few switchs they trust.

Wireless, to them, was good for control but not yet good enough for Ethersound. So I guess it's up to the user because we would be more control then delivery. Me, I'll stay with copper for a whlie longer.

The thing that interested me was that one can buy a PCI Fiber Ethernet adapter for the core unit, then to a fiber switch, fan out to P.E.M. on stage, then go 200m to FOH and get a Fiber cardbus for a laptop. (Would you give that person a second look if thats all they had!)

PS: I just used Netgear as an example.

Hap

[DominicPerry]

The most common failure/problem with these kind of hubs/switches is that the wall-wart plug comes out the back very easily. If you can buy them with the mains power cable going straight into the back of the device you will avoid a lot of outages. You should also pick switches over hubs if you can.

The other problem to avoid is ethernet loops. Sophisticated switches will detect loops and shut one of the ports down but cheaper ones will just stop passing any traffic or flood the whole network with broadcast packets if you create a loop. Ethernet should be thought of as a hierarchy, no loops are allowed.

Lastly, if you are using 100Mb/s (or 10Mb/s) it's worth making sure that all of your devices are manually set to 100Mb/s Full Duplex. If you rely on auto sensing, it is very common to get one end of the cable on 100Mb/s half duplex and one on full duplex. This is often hard to spot because it works but everything can be very slow or your computer can grind to a weird sort of halt for no good reason. I saw this happen on a ***163;10m project with a bunch of huge UNIX servers, and it went on for weeks before someone spotted it. Worth avoiding. Gbit doesn't suffer from this problem as it is always full duplex.

Dominic

[IraSeigel]

I was just looking into D-Link.

Digigram shows D-Link as one of the few switchs they trust.

Hap

Digigram also says (http://www.ethersound.com/technology/overview.php) that Fast Ethernet (100Mbs) is sufficient, as opposed to Gigabit Ethernet. So if cost is a factor, you might consider Fast Ethernet. Besides, it seems to be less problematic than Gigabit - at least the units from Linksys and Netgear.

Ira

[HapHazzard]

The most common failure/problem with these kind of hubs/switches is that the wall-wart plug comes out the back very easily. If you can buy them with the mains power cable going straight into the back of the device you will avoid a lot of outages. You should also pick switches over hubs if you can.

The other problem to avoid is ethernet loops. Sophisticated switches will detect loops and shut one of the ports down but cheaper ones will just stop passing any traffic or flood the whole network with broadcast packets if you create a loop. Ethernet should be thought of as a hierarchy, no loops are allowed.


Dominic
Very true indead on both counts.

[DominicPerry]

Gigabit can actually be slower than 100Mb/s if you are sending small amounts of data or lots of very small packets of data. This is because the smallest packet on 10baseT and 100baseT is 64bytes and the smallest on Gigabit is 640 bytes. That means tiny chunks of data have to be 'padded' to fill up the 640byte frame before they can be sent on Gbit, and then removed at the other end.

In practice, you just have to decide how much data you want to send. 100Mb/s is enough for most applications and is very cheap to buy network cards and switches for.

Dominic

[HapHazzard]

Digigram also says (http://www.ethersound.com/technology/overview.php) that Fast Ethernet (100Mbs) is sufficient, as opposed to Gigabit Ethernet. So if cost is a factor, you might consider Fast Ethernet. Besides, it seems to be less problematic than Gigabit - at least the units from Linksys and Netgear.

Ira

True...Ya....Maybe.
Digigram may also be one of those companies that "If it's not Broke, don't change it!" We used a 1g 4 port switch when we setup Steve's Innovason/ Digigram. No problems there.

With SAC I do not know if the 1g base switches would feel any different then the 100 base. And feel is what we will being looking at. I'm sure the 10 verses 100 base would be feel different.

If 100 base is fine, then its EBay suplus network deport we go! Somebody gotta be giving up some nice older stuff.

Hap

[HapHazzard]

Gigabit can actually be slower than 100Mb/s if you are sending small amounts of data or lots of very small packets of data. This is because the smallest packet on 10baseT and 100baseT is 64bytes and the smallest on Gigabit is 640 bytes. That means tiny chunks of data have to be 'padded' to fill up the 640byte frame before they can be sent on Gbit, and then removed at the other end.

In practice, you just have to decide how much data you want to send. 100Mb/s is enough for most applications and is very cheap to buy network cards and switches for.

Dominic
Thanks Dominc for clearing that up.
I'm saddling up and heading off to nearest supplus right now.

Hap

[IraSeigel]

Thanks Dominc for clearing that up.
I'm saddling up and heading off to nearest supplus right now.

Hap

Mail order is best. Newegg.com, Buy.com, ZipZoomFly.com are my favorites. No running around. The few dollars you MIGHT save at a surplus is more than eaten up by your time and gas. IMHO.

Ira

[Bob L]

I have a handful of the Dlink DGS-1005D switches.. they have been doing great.

Bob L

[IraSeigel]

I have a handful of the Dlink DGS-1005D switches.. they have been doing great.

Bob L

D-Link says this is a discontinued product. Its replacement is the DGS-2205: http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=494. US$25 and free shipping in the US from www.Newegg.com (http://www.Newegg.com).

Ira

[Bob L]

Well... I only bought them in the last 2 years... since the fire... that goes to show you how quick things change in this industry. :)

Still working great and I would hope they continue for years to come... but I would hope to believe the new version will be as good.

Bob L

[Pedro Itriago]

This is great info, Hap. Thanks for taking the time to get the real scoop. Please thank Ken for us when you contact him again.

So all switches are hubs, but not all hubs are switches, I guess. And routers can act as switches, but add another layer of functionality (?). So for the KISS principle, the switch is the best. As you stated.

Regards,
Ira

No. Hubs are hubs and switches are switches.

Look at it with this analogy. A hub would be like a passive data port and a switch is like an active data port, with hardware in place to make data traffic as efficient as possible.

Routers have IP address translation/interconnection capabilities. They serve to connect two or more distinct networks.

[Pedro Itriago]

DLink Gigabit switchers is what I have been using with great results.

Bob L

Ditto here.

[Pedro Itriago]

Yes, they do. I have the 2208 and works flawlessly.