SAC Loudspeaker management system

[Warren]

Bob:

Would it be possible to add this at a later date? Like March 2nd 2008. :D Since no hardware IO is needed being that the signal is already in the digital domain and you have already written code for EQ, DELAY's and Limiters could you give this some thought at least for FOH.

Could be a very nice addon module. one that I am sure would be well recieved.

Thanks in advance.

[alchemist]

Could be a very nice addon module. one that I am sure would be well recieved.

There are several DSP boxes that do this and vary a lot in their capabilities. What are you talking about exactly?

[Warren]

There are several DSP boxes that do this and vary a lot in their capabilities. What are you talking about exactly?

Like for example the funtions that are avail in units as follows:
dbx DriveRack 481
Meyer's Galileo loudspeaker management system
BSS FDS-385 OMNIDRIVE_ LOUDSPEAKER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM
Martin Audio's DX1. Loudspeaker management system

My Idea is that since the signals are at this point digital and most of the coding is done. At most locations you require room EQ ,so you need to run a RTA, also you need a crossover, delay is often needed between drivers to repair poor speaker design, then independant limiters are used between each crossover point so bass signals don't squash vocals or cymbals.

In Bobs concept of a virtual console, I beleive it can be taken to the point where the signal is processed in SAC and ready for final Amp stage minus the DA convertor of course. Why still have hardware RTA, Crossover, Speaker Delays, and Speaker Limiters.

With SAC you could eliminate so much hardware and fail points. It just makes since at this point.

[Bob L]

Well... adding room eq on the output chans of the console is a given... adding delay is also a given... multiple zone delays is a given by assigning to multiple outs at the same time... but... messing directly with an individual speaker box and its associated tweaks is an internal thing, specific to each type of speaker design.

Bob L

[sstillwell]

Level, parametric EQ, group delay, crossover type and slope (e.g. Linkwitz-Reilly 4th order) LPF/HPF/BPF would be about all I'd expect to see.

So if you have an additional crossover filter plug on the output, and a way to specify the delay in ft/meters/milliseconds with temperature/altitude correction (which would just affect how the delay length is calculated, not the way it processes), you're there as far as LMS goes. Anything else loudspeaker-specific is just a matter of creating presets of all of the above to match a particular arrangement of boxes.

That being said, all of that is already in systems like the DriveRack, EV DX-38, etc., etc. How virtual are you going to get...all the way to the amp? I'm not sure that loudspeaker management is an appropriate function for SAC...in an install system, loudspeaker management is going to be locked down tight after the system is tuned, I would think...why would you have it sitting in plain sight on the console where an operator of unknown experience could tinker with it?

I guess it could go either way...

Scott

[IraSeigel]

I'm not sure that loudspeaker management is an appropriate function for SAC...in an install system, loudspeaker management is going to be locked down tight after the system is tuned, I would think...why would you have it sitting in plain sight on the console where an operator of unknown experience could tinker with it?

Scott

Amen!
Ira

[Warren]

Well... adding room eq on the output chans of the console is a given... adding delay is also a given... multiple zone delays is a given by assigning to multiple outs at the same time... but... messing directly with an individual speaker box and its associated tweaks is an internal thing, specific to each type of speaker design.

Bob L

Alot of Pro Cabs specs can be downloaded from the manufracture just for that purpose, to input into a LMS to exacting crossover points, frequency boost or cut via parametric EQ, also delay input because the drivers are not straightly aligned within the cabnet and limiters after crossover outs for speaker and amp protection one for each crossover output so when bass freq limit the high's don't. All that would be needed next is a RTA and room EQ to fix anomilies in the room, all the other above mentioned things could be made to be a preset for a particular system your using.

Why not go all the way to the amp? MUCH less to go wrong at the show, less to drag to the show, less to hookup. Just makes since to me.

[Naturally Digital]

Alot of Pro Cabs specs can be downloaded from the manufracture just for that purpose, to input into a LMS to exacting crossover points, frequency boost or cut via parametric EQ, also delay input because the drivers are not straightly aligned within the cabnet and limiters after crossover outs for speaker and amp protection one for each crossover output so when bass freq limit the high's don't. All that would be needed next is a RTA and room EQ to fix anomilies in the room, all the other above mentioned things could be made to be a preset for a particular system your using.

Why not go all the way to the amp? MUCH less to go wrong at the show, less to drag to the show, less to hookup. Just makes since to me.Warren, you should have no problem accomplishing this with SAC as it is. Get the Frequency Analyser for RTA, your choice of EQ, delay and limiter plugins. With Jon's EQ or Pieter's, you should have enough flexibility to create the crossovers you need. It is what you make it.

[IraSeigel]

Warren, you should have no problem accomplishing this with SAC as it is. Get the Frequency Analyser for RTA, your choice of EQ, delay and limiter plugins. With Jon's EQ or Pieter's, you should have enough flexibility to create the crossovers you need. It is what you make it.

David,
Then what might be nice is if any SAW associates wanted to put a "Speaker Management Plug-in Bundle" together and sell it as an integrated, "turnkey" solution.

Or not.

Ira

[Warren]

Warren, you should have no problem accomplishing this with SAC as it is. Get the Frequency Analyser for RTA, your choice of EQ, delay and limiter plugins. With Jon's EQ or Pieter's, you should have enough flexibility to create the crossovers you need. It is what you make it.
I am sure that this is the case to some extent but it is a addition that is not so smooth as it would if it were coded into the existing system, in the design you explain I would have to inject bandpass filters, parametric EQ, delays and limiter into each output that I use for FOH 6 to 7 just for stereo 3 way w/sub. It just makes more since to have it already there input the parameters, save as a default, go to the show ring out the room, save setup for that room and never have to worry about tweaking for that room again unless the room changes. Much smoother no!

[Warren]

David,
Then what might be nice is if any SAW associates wanted to put a "Speaker Management Plug-in Bundle" together and sell it as an integrated, "turnkey" solution.

Or not.

Ira

And Ira that would be fine also but at least the user would be assured that it is a module coded direct for injecting into SAC, and not some hoge-poge group of plugs patched in.
But also Im not sure you want it at a patch point you would want it after all mix out points

No offence to the plugin idea Dave.

[IraSeigel]

And Ira that would be fine also but at least the user would be assured that it is a module coded direct for injecting into SAC, and not some hoge-poge group of plugs patched in.

No offence to the plugin idea Dave.

I think all the SAW-native plugs (Sonoris, Anwida, JMS, SAW, etc.) would work extremely well in this application. It's just a matter of choosing and integrating them into a single package. Some users might feel more comfortable if an "expert" did that, rather than trial and error on their own.

And maybe an integrated bundle could be sold cheaper than ala carte.

Ira

[Warren]

Amen!
Ira

How many time have you changed venues, and the mix operator should know how to operate it, and it could be password protected for that matter.

[IraSeigel]

How many time have you changed venues, and the mix operator should know how to operate it, and it could be password protected for that matter.

So, if you're going thru a password-protected speaker management system that has been set up incorrectly, would you want to add ANOTHER layer of EQ, time delay or crossover points on top of THAT? I don't think so. God, what a mess you'd have!

No, better to let the system ops get into their SMS unit and adjust it properly. Or, if you know you'll be using a particular brand of hardware SMS (DriveRack, e.g.), just carry the software and a cable so that you can get into their unit - IF they'll allow you to.

Ira

[Warren]

So, if you're going thru a password-protected speaker management system that has been set up incorrectly, would you want to add ANOTHER layer of EQ, time delay or crossover points on top of THAT? I don't think so. God, what a mess you'd have!

No, better to let the system ops get into their SMS unit and adjust it properly. Or, if you know you'll be using a particular brand of hardware SMS (DriveRack, e.g.), just carry the software and a cable so that you can get into their unit - IF they'll allow you to.

Ira

If it freaks you out so to use LMS maybe the mixer is a bit to much for you also Ira, Its not that big a deal and the benifets are greater than any downside you dream up and password protect was in responce to another issue you have with progress.

Most Large system have LMS to fine tune the rig, if it is not needed during a particular venue bypass it.

If where considering a software system for FOH and Monitor mixing that GREATLY reduces the need for hardware a complete software system that has MIC PRE > AD >SAC >DA> AMP is the logical step.

[IraSeigel]

If it freaks you out so to use LMS maybe the mixer is a bit to much for you also Ira, Its not that big a deal and the benifets are greater than any downside you dream up and password protect was in responce to another issue you have with progress.

Most Large system have LMS to fine tune the rig, if it is not needed during a particular venue bypass it.

If where considering a software system for FOH and Monitor mixing that GREATLY reduces the need for hardware a complete software system that has MIC PRE > AD >SAC >DA> AMP is the logical step.

Warren,
I'm only responding to let you know that this kind of drivel doesn't deserve a response.
Ira

[Warren]

I notice a very agrumentive attitude towards new ideas regarding this subject. I feel if I have an input to the development of the software I will be using in the field than I plan on airing my concerns. Why that deserves a negitive responce on most accounts is beyond me . Seems some just like to piddle in the prunes to get a rise out of you instead of injecting somthing of value. Go figure!

[IraSeigel]

I notice a very agrumentive attitude towards new ideas regarding this subject.

I think you will see arguments against new ideas that are bad ideas. Look carefully at all the responses in this thread to your "new idea". Maybe it's you who should be reassessing your "argumentative attitude"?

Ira

[Fat Cat Music]

Hello,

Not to get in the middle of an argument, but I would rather just add another voice to the pro speaker management inside SAW or SAC group.

I would like to point out that I have to carry an extra computer around to use with the DBX driverack because the USB implementation locks up or glitches when I try to use it on the same computer with my recording or live mode mix... Totalmix and Driverack don't like each other as far as I can tell.

The submix part of the setup should be very easy from Bob's description of SAC. So should adding delay and eq, but combining all that with a crossover plug-in seems as though it should make everything play together better.

I do not have a situation where someone else is running my mix so I am the only one around to screw up my room eq's etc:)

The Driverack sounds good and works well but the USB just doesn't like the rest of my system. For that matter the Driverack doesn't like several of my laptops, prefering to run on my old IBM (Win2000) or on the HP (Win XP) I use for SAW. It will not run with my Vaio (Win98, ME, 2000) Anyone else have that problem?

So, I would be very interested in a speaker management plug for SAW or SAC either one.

Thanks
DRBurroughs

[Warren]

Maybe you never seen a system with LMS intragrated because your only experiance with sound reinforcement is in seat other than mix position!

They all have now Ira

Oh in your next responce we don't need a resume

[IraSeigel]

Maybe you never seen a system with LMS intragrated because your only experiance with sound reinforcement is in seat other than mix position!

They all have now Ira

Oh in your next responce we don't need a resume

Warren, your spelling is as good as your manners. Have a nice day.
Ira

[Warren]

Warren, your spelling is as good as your manners. Have a nice day.
Ira
Good day to you too!

Ira you brought it on, and your right I don't always spell at my best when I get messed with. But!

Going by your personal profile one might think you fully understand the concept of Touring sound systems, mixing FOH is one thing, Monitor engineer is another system design has nothing to do with either. Mixing is a talent, good system design is much more of a skill.

LSM is now a intregrated componet in most if not all major touring systems.
If I am about to embark on a complete software console I don't wish to have
to also massage a hardware LSM into it, if indeed it can be intregrated at
the software level. SAC is in its infantcy, at a point where it can be changed for the better, and my desire is to make it a useful tool for my needs and possibley others. I am not on this forum to banter back and forth with someone whom seems to not care one way or another. I bought into SAC because I can see it has great potential for the way I want to do business.

What appears to be a bad idea for you, may just be your informilurarity with the system of this sort. I don,t know.

I hope your day is well as well, I am sorry if we got into a scruff but I want to see somthing happen that is forward thinking regarding SAC and not fight about what you dont want.

It seems that since I started this thread you have not had any positive things to offer SAC, just found somthing wrong with me. Bad day?

Regarding SAC what can you offer?

[jazzydaw]

I am constantly amazed at how
really good the discussions can
be on this forum...

James Murphree
JazzMedia@charter.net

[Warren]

I am constantly amazed at how
really good the discussions can
be on this forum...

James Murphree
JazzMedia@charter.net

Fun huh:D
Hey he is right I stink at spelling:eek: O well I will get on a spelling bee forum later, maybe after SAC is complete! Untill then lets input somthing to Bob about the product that can be useful to all and not point out issues with me that I and you already know about.:D

Anyway sorry about the bursts of banter Bob. What do you think about a LMS in SAC?

[Bill Park]

I think that something like this will be inevitably a part of the successful tablet/laptop virtual console that takes the market, whimever steps up to the plate to make it happen.

For the moment, the new Dolby/Lake looks like a reasonable solution, from the positive review in FOH. Most of these devices serve a useful purpose I guess, but I'm generally dismayed at the ones that I have been forced to use. Meanwhile, there is nothing in them that could not be run from within the processing power of a laptop.

No reason for it not to be a part of the setup page, a menu item that is never seen by anyone who does not need to access it, and no reason for any guest engineer to second guess the systems engineer and try to reset.

It could even be a 'plug in', optional piece at additional cost... believe me, any touring rig that could get rid of the expense and rack requirements and training and etc etc would not be shy about paying for this upgrade/update/plug in if it worked better than the hardware units currently on the market... and how could it not? Simply giving the user a full screen display of the parameters would be a major step up. (yes, many can be programmed from a laptop... as has been mentioned here, not so eaily as one might imagine or hope... take away that uncertainty, and it would be a good sales point.)

Anyway, this is one of those things that either Bob decides to embrace or not; but as users, those who need it see it's value and those who don't might wish his efforts were better focused on their needs. I just happen to believe that this is one of the few side roads that he could ramble down in which much of the 'leg work' will have already been done for him. It may be more a matter of enabling the proper switching and working out the display and access. Likely not to interfere much with his main mission, so not likely to hurt anyone who does not need it.

Bill

[IraSeigel]

Maybe you never seen a system with LMS intragrated because your only experiance with sound reinforcement is in seat other than mix position!

They all have now Ira

Oh in your next responce we don't need a resume

So please help me to understand your idea. As you stated above, LMS is integrated into many, if not all, PA systems.

So, is your idea to bypass the system's SMS and provide your own? Honestly, I don't know how many system owners or operators would simply hit the bypass switch on a DriveRack, etc. (if there IS a such a switch) and tell the engineer "It's all yours".

Or, if your idea is to add your SMS to the existing one (as opposed to replacing theirs with yours), then I still say that adding another layer of EQ, delay, etc. to a pre-existing setup is not advisable. You never did address my earlier comment on this. You just slammed me for questioning you.

Finally, and I honestly don't know the answer to this so please tell me: if SAC were to supply SMS - either via plug-in or integrated within the program - would you then be running many output signals to the amp racks? For example, after SMS, then wouldn't you need 3 or 4 channels L & R to drive the PA? And that would be just for the mains. Each individual additional array would also need feeds from your SMS, so would that be additional outputs needed from your interface? That would require a large return snake. Yours, or will you ask the PA company to provide one? Or am I thinking "last century"?

Ira

[Warren]

So please help me to understand your idea. As you stated above, LMS is integrated into many, if not all, PA systems.

So, is your idea to bypass the system's SMS and provide your own? Honestly, I don't know how many system owners or operators would simply hit the bypass switch on a DriveRack, etc. (if there IS a such a switch) and tell the engineer "It's all yours".

Or, if your idea is to add your SMS to the existing one (as opposed to replacing theirs with yours), then I still say that adding another layer of EQ, delay, etc. to a pre-existing setup is not advisable. You never did address my earlier comment on this. You just slammed me for questioning you.

Finally, and I honestly don't know the answer to this so please tell me: if SAC were to supply SMS - either via plug-in or integrated within the program - would you then be running many output signals to the amp racks? For example, after SMS, then wouldn't you need 3 or 4 channels L & R to drive the PA? And that would be just for the mains. Each individual additional array would also need feeds from your SMS, so would that be additional outputs needed from your interface? That would require a large return snake. Yours, or will you ask the PA company to provide one? Or am I thinking "last century"?

Ira

Ira you continue to be bent about an idea that might just be helpful to others besides yourself, seeming to get my goat. have fun!

But!

(First) SAC is not mine its Bobs software, I merely want a LMS to be a part of it. Because I am selfish and want it to work only for me.:eek:

(Second) I own two sound reinforcement companies (no boasting intended) so I do not plug into someone else's system. If indeed that is what you do thats fine suggest on this forum for SAC a bybass for LMS. As you can see by the responces of others here it might be good for them also.

Tell us what you want for your SAC needs, I am sure you didn't come to this forum just to poop on everyones software needs or to point out the poor spelling habits I have. So bring somthing to the table we all might be able to use and I will work on my spelling or use a spell checker:D

[Warren]

I think that something like this will be inevitably a part of the successful tablet/laptop virtual console that takes the market, whimever steps up to the plate to make it happen.

For the moment, the new Dolby/Lake looks like a reasonable solution, from the positive review in FOH. Most of these devices serve a useful purpose I guess, but I'm generally dismayed at the ones that I have been forced to use. Meanwhile, there is nothing in them that could not be run from within the processing power of a laptop.

No reason for it not to be a part of the setup page, a menu item that is never seen by anyone who does not need to access it, and no reason for any guest engineer to second guess the systems engineer and try to reset.

It could even be a 'plug in', optional piece at additional cost... believe me, any touring rig that could get rid of the expense and rack requirements and training and etc etc would not be shy about paying for this upgrade/update/plug in if it worked better than the hardware units currently on the market... and how could it not? Simply giving the user a full screen display of the parameters would be a major step up. (yes, many can be programmed from a laptop... as has been mentioned here, not so eaily as one might imagine or hope... take away that uncertainty, and it would be a good sales point.)

Anyway, this is one of those things that either Bob decides to embrace or not; but as users, those who need it see it's value and those who don't might wish his efforts were better focused on their needs. I just happen to believe that this is one of the few side roads that he could ramble down in which much of the 'leg work' will have already been done for him. It may be more a matter of enabling the proper switching and working out the display and access. Likely not to interfere much with his main mission, so not likely to hurt anyone who does not need it.

Bill

Bless you

Not for the sneeze:D

[Cary B. Cornett]

Some of this discussion seems aimed just at large dedicated/proprietary systems. Let me offer another POV.

The amazing value of Bob's mix setup compared to equivalent hardware makes "advanced" features available to people with much more restricted budgets. I believe there is a tremendous potential market for SAC in smaller venues and by smaller PA operators.

When I found myself wishing I had a decent active crossover that I could use with an unconventional FOH speaker setup that I was presented with on short notice, it was SO COOL to realize that I could improvise an active crossover with what I had in SawStudio. I could not have predicted (at least not with my limited FOH experience) the need to slap together an exotic/oddball solution on no notice, and the versatility of SAW absolutely saved the day for me and for the show.:cool: :cool:

So, I am very much in favor of having speaker management tools available as part of the SAC "arsenal", because sooner or later SOMEONE is going to be presented with a need for it at the last minute, with no place to go for a quick rental.

Let's continue with Bob's time-honored tradition of assuming that, if he gives us tools with lots of flexibility, we are smart enough to know what to use, how, and when to use it. NOT doing something cool just because some idiot could misuse it is shackling the rest of us to the lowest common denominator, and I believe that Bob doesn't like that kind of thinking any more than I do.

[Warren]

Ira I am not trying to make this personal!

I just wish to have complete control of my sound systems on my computers
via one peice of software and module's may be disabled if need be, thats OK
The cost savings for rigs going out the door could pay for even more systems.
Less racks = less trucks = better for my business.

If I can go from Mic pre to AD converter to SAC and back out a few of the outputs of an DA converter then to an Amp rack: Wow what a savings in time, equipment burnout trucking. can you smell the $.

If I have to give up a few of the outputs that would other wise be used or monitors I would do it I don't need 24 monitor stations heck I would gladly give up 6 to have FOH control as a part of the software package.

I can easily reboot and get the system backup but if my DBX 480 goes south so does the show, I don't have spares for that nor can I afford to for all my systems.

Its just the way I want to do business.

[brent]

Ira I am not trying to make this personal!

I just wish to have complete control of my sound systems on my computers
via one peice of software and module's may be disabled if need be, thats OK
The cost savings for rigs going out the door could pay for even more systems.
Less racks = less trucks = better for my business.

If I can go from Mic pre to AD converter to SAC and back out a few of the outputs of an DA converter then to an Amp rack: Wow what a savings in time, equipment burnout trucking. can you smell the $.

If I have to give up a few of the outputs that would other wise be used or monitors I would do it I don't need 24 monitor stations heck I would gladly give up 6 to have FOH control as a part of the software package.

I can easily reboot and get the system backup but if my DBX 480 goes south so does the show, I don't have spares for that nor can I afford to for all my systems.

Its just the way I want to do business.

No offense, but those dbx's suck. I used to sell em'. Not any more. Too many issues. Too course for many manufacturer's systems.

[AudioAstronomer]

Warren, can you please answer Ira's last question? His viewpoint seems entirely logical to me and if he's in error, it would benefit me and likely others to know how.

[IraSeigel]

Ira I am not trying to make this personal!



Warren,
If you'll read the first few responses of this thread - including Bob's - you'll see that at least a few participants would seem to "poop" on your idea, as you put it.

And since my original question to you about how you'd manage such a system - and they are honest questions, not impugning your integrity - your responses have ONLY been personal attacks and not helpful to the discussion at all.

Please reread my earlier posts in this thread - where I suggested the idea of a "Speaker Management Plug-in Bundle" - and my other posts re SAC and you hopefully will see that I am very excited about this product and not "pooping" on it whatsoever. Sorry if I've given that impression.

Ira

[Warren]

I have none nor stated any problems I have with it as a plugin except that
I feel it should be inserted at a point after the master fader since that is the logical place and where it is in systems now.

I am just throwing ideas out there that would work for me since thats the way it is now except for its hardware.

To take things a step farther a lighting control track could also be implemented to control lighting cues if the engineer wishes to take on that task.

I have not designed these concepts most of it is already there its just hardware.

I am just trying to see how far this concept can go for us that use this type of gear. If others don't hey no problem.

As I stated before I would like to bring less items to the venue that can cause problems in the event of damage, burnout etc.

I hope after all this I am clear as to my desire

[brent]

I'll have a go at it.

SAC could help eliminate DSP latency.

The problem with these digital speaker management boxes is induced latency. The more you use, the more you get. There is almost no "in-the-box" calculation for the exact amount to offset. There is no delay compensation at all on most. You simply must remember what the manual says and deduct it from you time alignment settings. What units have it only approximate.

In the case of dbx, they will tell you not to EQ the outputs, because any processing on the output side adds delay, throwing everything else off, making you break out SMAART again and checking for time alignment.

Some digital consoles have speaker system management built in. Some also have network/communication built in, so that a miniature Media Matrix type thing can be implemented. It allows the engineer at FOH to have constant control of the whole thing, from one position, as opposed to radio-ing the A2, A3 by the amp racks.

We need to be able to provide fully parametric notch EQ, graphic EQ, multiple types of bandpass filters, ALL PASS filters, multi-band compression, etc to replace the outboard boxes. We are not asking for SAC to process the speaker components alone. That would be silly IMO to have that many sends going to the stage. What we are talking about is speaker system management as a whole.

[Warren]

I'll have a go at it.

SAC could help eliminate DSP latency.

The problem with these digital speaker management boxes is induced latency. The more you use, the more you get. There is almost no "in-the-box" calculation for the exact amount to offset. There is no delay compensation at all on most. You simply must remember what the manual says and deduct it from you time alignment settings. What units have it only approximate.

In the case of dbx, they will tell you not to EQ the outputs, because any processing on the output side adds delay, throwing everything else off, making you break out SMAART again and checking for time alignment.

Some digital consoles have speaker system management built in. Some also have network/communication built in, so that a miniature Media Matrix type thing can be implemented. It allows the engineer at FOH to have constant control of the whole thing, from one position, as opposed to radio-ing the A2, A3 by the amp racks.

We need to be able to provide fully parametric notch EQ, graphic EQ, multiple types of bandpass filters, ALL PASS filters, multi-band compression, etc to replace the outboard boxes. We are not asking for SAC to process the speaker components alone. That would be silly IMO to have that many sends going to the stage. What we are talking about is speaker system management as a whole.

Another thought is that with a lot of off the shelf cabs you can download the cab tweaks to apply to your own LMS rather than have another
processor doing convertion as well as ADDA conversion have SAC w/LMS do it. That is if you feel comfortable with the data that the cab builder gives you.

The system we are discribing here is not for a new engineer and I do believe that the LMS should be able to be disabled as well as locked own. As far as being a plug I dont know how Bob has setup SAC to say.
Also I believe training given for those engineers using the new system, training givin by a system designer prior to its use.
As stated before I dont mind giving up a few outs that would normaly be used as monitor feeds since Bob stated SAC will something like 24. Any snake would be back stage anyway between the host system and amp racks and it will only carry about four signals to each amp rack.

I know that this might not be the best setup for everyone but it would be ideal for me.

[brent]

Bob needs to do a presentation for SynAudCon and/or NSCA.

[IraSeigel]

As stated before I dont mind giving up a few outs that would normaly be used as monitor feeds since Bob stated SAC will something like 24. Any snake would be back stage anyway between the host system and amp racks and it will only carry about four signals to each amp rack.


Yes, I understand that you have multiple SAC outputs and can spare a few to drive a PA.

However, that wasn't my question. I'm asking about sends to the actual hardware - the amp racks. It will be necessary to have 6 or 8, at least, to drive the (subs)LMH of a PA left and right. So those will take actual HARDWARE outputs, aka XLR male jacks. Where will those be? In a converter on stage? OK, then you don't need a big return snake from FOH, you just need a digital signal (Ethernet?) returning to the stage with all the SMS info. That feeds your DA card and gives you your actual audio outputs.

So you have multiple mic pre cards - let's say 2 or 3 with 8 pre's each - and a unit like a Multiface or other AD converter to send it "up the line" to your FOH computer. Then you're sending a digital audio signal down the snake to a DA converter with at least 6 outputs in order to drive the PA.

Do I understand correctly?

For me, at least for awhile, I'd prefer to use the system's snake to send analog audio to FOH, do my AD conversion at FOH where I can monitor my pre's (I can't afford remote-controlled mic pre's), send it to my laptop via firewire, and output a mixed analog signal to the system's crossover - usually also at FOH. I'd bypass their FOH eq and do my own in SAC.

But if I'm touring in California and you're the system supplier, I would certainly be happy to see you do your speaker management via SAC. I just feel that, learning a new technology like this, I'll have enough on my plate with these "basics".

But I'd be saving the tour money by not having to rent a FOH console, and I wouldn't be taking up a lot of seats, so sightlines/seating would be improved, too.

As I said, I have never criticized an idea. I'm just trying to get the idea "fleshed out" as completely as possible so that I can wrap my head around it to see if it's something that pertains to my work. If it's not, I'll "bypass" it.

Ira

[Bob L]

Seems like many are missing the concept here... SAC changes everything from the way it is done now... if you decide to let it... you do not need a snake to reach FOH... you do not need expensive mic splitters... you do not need extra consoles for monitors... you do not need racks of graphics for all the speaker stacks... everything can be done in SAC in the virtual environment.

You place the main SAC system backstage... now you feed all mics into that rack of Behringers (or whatever converters)... no snakes reaching FOH... simply small sub snakes all over the stage... now all 72 inputs are in the main system... SAC splits those signals to all 24 stereo monitor consoles... from any one of 6 tap-off points... now... the off-stage monitor mixer can sit at that rig and do monitors if he wants... a wireless or single ethernet cable runs to FOH and the main mix is handled out there on any laptop or other computer... with no need for audio hardware... no audio is out at the FOH position... it's a dream way to work.... on stage you can also split off separate laptops for those muscians capable of handling their own monitor mix... again... no audio hardware... no physical splits... no snakes... a simple wireless or ethernet cable run around the stage.

It's a whole new paradigm... there will simply be no way to duplicate what this represents in hardware at virtually any budget that makes any sense whatsoever... things are about to change... resistance is futile... :)

Bob L

[Warren]

"I'm asking about sends to the actual hardware - the amp racks. It will be necessary to have 6 or 8, at least, to drive the (subs)LMH of a PA left and right. So those will take actual HARDWARE outputs, aka XLR male jacks. Where will those be?"
In a DA converter in the rack that the computer SAC is running on back stage.

"In a converter on stage?"
Yes

"OK, then you don't need a big return snake from FOH,"
No

"you just need a digital signal (Ethernet?)"
Yes

"returning to the stage with all the SMS info."
Yes

"That feeds your DA card and gives you your actual audio outputs."
Exactly

"So you have multiple mic pre cards - let's say 2 or 3 with 8 pre's each"
Yes Maybe even 9 since SAC can run up to 72 channels, and you could to as many as 18 eight channel micpre's because SAC's IN's and Outs are stereo I/O.

" and a unit like a Multiface or other AD converter to send it "up the line" to your FOH computer. Then you're sending a digital audio signal down the snake to a DA converter with at least 6 outputs in order to drive the PA."
No, unless you use this to feed CD audio or the like back to the stage.

Do I understand correctly?

"For me, at least for awhile, I'd prefer to use the system's snake to send analog audio to FOH, do my AD conversion at FOH where I can monitor my pre's (I can't afford remote-controlled mic pre's),"
Very much a valid point, hopefully we can get bugs like that worked out over time. But if I am not mistaken this is how Bob is doing it now, probably setting pre's during sound check from the Host machine on stage.

"send it to my laptop via firewire, and output a mixed analog signal to the system's crossover - usually also at FOH. I'd bypass their FOH eq and do my own in SAC."
I would be using my own flown array's amps etc. so I would have total control over SAC and the LMS if its implemented.

"But if I'm touring in California and you're the system supplier, I would certainly be happy to see you do your speaker management via SAC. I just feel that, learning a new technology like this, I'll have enough on my plate with these "basics".
Understood, Training Training Training I would not send a system like this out until it is fully understood by any engineer that was using it, and that in the event of trouble they knew what to be to save the show.

"But I'd be saving the tour money by not having to rent a FOH console, and I wouldn't be taking up a lot of seats, so sightlines/seating would be improved, too."
:D saves your back and on trucking also.

"As I said, I have never criticized an idea. I'm just trying to get the idea "fleshed out" as completely as possible so that I can wrap my head around it to see if it's something that pertains to my work. If it's not, I'll "bypass" it."
I totally understand getting checked out on any new system before committing it to a show.
Also my bad about getting over heated and misunderstanding what was stated please forgive me for that I am truly sorry.

I am passionate about the future of this product and what it can do for the industry I feel it can benefit us in a very profound way.

[Warren]

Bob:
Please let know if I am off base regarding my understanding of the functions of SAC. I would hate to waste the time
Also if a LMS is even possible.

Thanks

[IraSeigel]

I am passionate about the future of this product and what it can do for the industry I feel it can benefit us in a very profound way.

x2
Ira

[Warren]

x2
Ira

Word up yo.
Ain't no thang but a chicken wing on a string:D

[Warren]

Bob:
I guess my weak points regarding understanding your statements about SAC are.

" you do not need racks of graphics for all the speaker stacks..."
This confused me a great deal. Sorry :o

"... from any one of 6 tap-off points..."
I was OK up to this point :confused:

The only other thing is what Ira and I were discussing, Playing say a CD form FOH would this be the only instance for audio feeds from FOH? Or did I miss that one also?

Thanks Bob for the clarification

[Bob L]

Warren... you can set everything up FOH if you want and then do everything the way you do it now... minus the physuical console... or you can do as I suggested... keep the main rig backstage... you must understand... all inputs go into the converters at the SAC computer satation... those converters also are your outputs as well... 72 ins... 72 outs... physical XLR outs if you use Behringers... so you have more than enough outs to feed multiple speaker stacks and easily patch virtual graphics plugins into each out... and add delays also if you want... and use eqs for crossovers... and whatever else you need to do to each output feeding each speaker amp rack... essentially you will get line outs from SAC... up to 72 of them... you then feed physical amp racks and speakers... you can also feed racks and racks of hardware eqs and crossovers if you want... but you do not need to... virtual ones would work perfectly... no latency... we do this now with the current SAWStudio... in live mode... which is the forerunner of the SAC engine design.

It really is not that complicated to utilize... complicated to code... yes... complicated to use... no... it will be a dream.

Bob L

[Warren]

Thanks Bob :)
Can't wait.
I have been tinkering with the remote funtions of SAW and I can't believe how FAST the updates are from the meters, faders, everything. If SAC is all you say and is half of what SAW is WOW! Things are going to change.

Thanks for clearing things up a bit Bob

[brent]

Seems like many are missing the concept here... SAC changes everything from the way it is done now... if you decide to let it... you do not need a snake to reach FOH... you do not need expensive mic splitters... you do not need extra consoles for monitors... you do not need racks of graphics for all the speaker stacks... everything can be done in SAC in the virtual environment.

You place the main SAC system backstage... now you feed all mics into that rack of Behringers (or whatever converters)... no snakes reaching FOH... simply small sub snakes all over the stage... now all 72 inputs are in the main system... SAC splits those signals to all 24 stereo monitor consoles... from any one of 6 tap-off points... now... the off-stage monitor mixer can sit at that rig and do monitors if he wants... a wireless or single ethernet cable runs to FOH and the main mix is handled out there on any laptop or other computer... with no need for audio hardware... no audio is out at the FOH position... it's a dream way to work.... on stage you can also split off separate laptops for those muscians capable of handling their own monitor mix... again... no audio hardware... no physical splits... no snakes... a simple wireless or ethernet cable run around the stage.

It's a whole new paradigm... there will simply be no way to duplicate what this represents in hardware at virtually any budget that makes any sense whatsoever... things are about to change... resistance is futile... :)

Bob L

That is the ultimate...I have done this with a Yamaha digital console, wireless and a laptop. I freaked me out at first because wireless was not 100%. Of course, this may be a non issue with wireless network and electronics companies buying the whitespace.

I could see pre programming all effects and running those offstage. Is there any MIDI for sending patch change commands?

[Bob L]

There will still be something like the Control Track for midi control commands to be sent to lighting and other stage automation equipment... not exactly sure what it will all look like yet.

Bob L

[IraSeigel]

The only problem I see in the setup Bob describes is keeping the mic pre's on stage. I (and Warren) assume they'd be preset during soundcheck. I haven't met a drummer or singer yet who plays as hard during soundcheck as he/she does during a show, so some adjustments are almost always necessary after the show starts.

Perhaps soon Behringer will fill a gap by making remote-controlled pre's, but for the time being the ones out there (RME, Aphex, etc.) are beyond my means. So for me, at first, I'll let the PA company (or venue) run their normal multicore snake to FOH and use those XLRs carrying standard analog mic signals to plug into my rack of pre's. I'll output just a L&R feed to go back down their snake. Maybe I'll advance my gigs to the point where I know what kind of speaker management system they're using (BSS, DriveRack, XTA, etc) and load that software into my laptop so that, with their permission, I can go in and tweak. (I sincerely doubt they'll let me.)

Phase 2, for me, will be to eliminate the PA company's monitor desk and do it all from FOH (at least for the acts I'm working with now).

Not interested in controlling lighting, altho I do see the value in that. No, for me, I need to make sure I'm not taking work away from TOO many folks!! I'd get in trouble with IATSE.

So, on a tour like I'll have this summer, with the Psychedelic Furs touring with their own console (perhaps a Venue, like last summer), and the FIXX using SAC, we will eliminate about $800 worth of PA rentals a nite in consoles and free up a bunch of seats (= more $$ to the bands). And if I could make this work wirelessly by July, I'll be able to mix from literally any seat in the house, adjust front fills or lawn fills on the fly, and still record my shows to be sold on USBs right after the show ends.

So I hope early March is realistic for a v1.0, Bob? Or a v.9?

Cheers,
Ira

[Bob L]

The idea as I described it still includes a monitor engineer... or at least some sort of stage crew... so, the monitor engineer would still be by the mic pres when the show starts and they can be tweaked then... it is not the end of the world... and also... if you are wireless... you can be at the mic pres any time you want during the show as you walk around the venue tweaking with your laptop.

Or... run a FOH snake and put the main rig FOH... there many options.

Bob L

[Warren]

Morning:eek:

"The only problem I see in the setup Bob describes is keeping the mic pre's on stage. I (and Warren) assume they'd be preset during soundcheck. I haven't met a drummer or singer yet who plays as hard during soundcheck as he/she does during a show, so some adjustments are almost always necessary after the show starts."

Ya that part kinda gives me the EBGB's also but Bob's been getting away with it for at least a few years by now so:rolleyes:



"Not interested in controlling lighting, altho I do see the value in that. No, for me, I need to make sure I'm not taking work away from TOO many folks!! I'd get in trouble with IATSE."

Ya know Ira I had no idea he had thought of that as an option, when I made that statment I was just brain storming (Mostly cloudy)

"So, on a tour like I'll have this summer, with the Psychedelic Furs touring with their own console (perhaps a Venue, like last summer), and the FIXX using SAC, we will eliminate about $800 worth of PA rentals a nite in consoles and free up a bunch of seats (= more $$ to the bands). And if I could make this work wirelessly by July, I'll be able to mix from literally any seat in the house, adjust front fills or lawn fills on the fly, and still record my shows to be sold on USBs right after the show ends."
Sounds like fun and you should get a kick back to your saving $ no?

"So I hope early March is realistic for a v1.0, Bob? Or a v.9?"

It sounds as most of it is in place, just fine tweaks at this point.

Cheers,
Ira[/QUOTE]

[IraSeigel]

The idea as I described it still includes a monitor engineer... or at least some sort of stage crew... so, the monitor engineer would still be by the mic pres when the show starts and they can be tweaked then... it is not the end of the world... and also... if you are wireless... you can be at the mic pres any time you want during the show as you walk around the venue tweaking with your laptop.

Or... run a FOH snake and put the main rig FOH... there many options.

Bob L

Yes, for me "Phase 1" will be having everything FOH, via a standard multicore analog snake. But I'll look forward to the day when I can string Cat5 or fiber instead. There are several digital snakes out there (Roland, Mackie, others), so some additional research is in order.

Just as there is a "PM1D/5D School" that Yamaha has, or Digidesign has training for their consoles, I'm sure (?) Bob will at some point have a SAC Certification Program. He envisions monitor engineers as part of his setup - I hope they're certified!

Bob, in addition to a Summer NAMM/AES/MusikMesse demonstration, a training program to "train the trainers" is in order.

Ira

[Ian Alexander]

I haven't met a drummer or singer yet who plays as hard during soundcheck as he/she does during a show, so some adjustments are almost always necessary after the show starts.

So, maybe you could do what we do on concert recordings of choirs. We know the sopranos, and any brass the conductor has decided to bless us with, will likely pop 3-5 dB beyond what we heard in warmup, so we usually drop the level about 6 dB from what looks good in warmup. Of course, that's not because we can't reach the pres, it's because we don't want to have to try to automate out any level changes in post. Making them transparent is just about impossible. And if the performers pop a bit less, we figure a little loss of SNR is better than hitting zero. So, set the pres for a peak of -8 or even -12 and concentrate on figuring out where that doggone hum is coming from.:)

[IraSeigel]

So, set the pres for a peak of -8 or even -12 and concentrate on figuring out where that doggone hum is coming from.:)

What!? I always thought that hum was coming from the choir. Dang! You mean it's NOT supposed to be there?!?

[Ian Alexander]

What!? I always thought that hum was coming from the choir. Dang! You mean it's NOT supposed to be there?!?
Psychedelic Furs has a choir???;) Maybe I should listen to them. Clicking a few tracks of theirs on Amazon reminds me of Bowie.

[Warren]

I believe Bob has mentioned a number of times that SAC requires Zero Latency Plugs or SAC will bypass them.

Of all the plugs out what are some that are worth using and fit this requirment, not counting Saw Native plugs of course?

Thanks in advance

[AudioAstronomer]

I believe Bob has mentioned a number of times that SAC requires Zero Latency Plugs or SAC will bypass them.

Of all the plugs out what are some that are worth using and fit this requirment, not counting Saw Native plugs of course?

Thanks in advance

It's pretty simple really... if you avoid the words "look ahead", "convolution" or "linear phase", 95% of the plugins remaining will be zero latency.

Rest is personal taste imo :D

[Warren]

It's pretty simple really... if you avoid the words "look ahead", "convolution" or "linear phase", 95% of the plugins remaining will be zero latency.

Rest is personal taste imo :D

It would appear alot of plug developers are not so quick to expose their down side.:D Go Figure:D
Trial, Tweek and Error and take good notes

[Bob L]

Or... simply patch in your favorite plugin and watch the titlebar in SS when you start the engine... the Buffer Size Change icon will appear if the plug adds latency... when SAC is released, do the same in SAC and it will flag the plugin also and auto-bypass it.

Bob L

[Warren]

Or... simply patch in your favorite plugin and watch the titlebar in SS when you start the engine... the Buffer Size Change icon will appear if the plug adds latency... when SAC is released, do the same in SAC and it will flag the plugin also and auto-bypass it.

Bob L

So if one is applied my mistake the show goes on, just pick the right one and delete the ones that cause SAC to bypass them. Yes?

[Bob L]

Yes.

Bob L

[Mountain Media]

......... And if I could make this work wirelessly by July, I'll be able to mix from literally any seat in the house, adjust front fills or lawn fills on the fly ............


Slightly OT (but maybe not). A few comments, in this thread, about using wireless for control link, and about becoming more reliable when the current 'white-space' sell-off sorts out. Just keep in mind that, within this same white-space, will reside many of the currently used wireless microphone/IEM freqs., and those will still be in use in many venues we'd be in - even if freqs within the tour are coordinated between w/l mics, IEM and w/l 802.11g/n devices, who's to say venue house w/l xmitters aren't 'accidently' on somewhere? I'd just suggest not counting on a guaranteed flawless wireless freq. environment in venues as we travel - until all this freq. mess is sorted out.


......... and still record my shows to be sold on USBs right after the show ends." ............


Warren, peeked my curiosity - 'sold on USBs' - how you doing this (and what is the media)?

[sstillwell]

Slightly OT (but maybe not). A few comments, in this thread, about using wireless for control link, and about becoming more reliable when the current 'white-space' sell-off sorts out. Just keep in mind that, within this same white-space, will reside many of the currently used wireless microphone/IEM freqs., and those will still be in use in many venues we'd be in - even if freqs within the tour are coordinated between w/l mics, IEM and w/l 802.11g/n devices, who's to say venue house w/l xmitters aren't 'accidently' on somewhere? I'd just suggest not counting on a guaranteed flawless wireless freq. environment in venues as we travel - until all this freq. mess is sorted out.



Warren, peeked my curiosity - 'sold on USBs' - how you doing this (and what is the media)?

I'm thinking he means rendered to MP3 or some such and sold on USB "thumb drives", which are dirt cheap in bulk (although not as cheap as CD-R). At least that's the way I interpreted it.

Scott

[sstillwell]

Yes, for me "Phase 1" will be having everything FOH, via a standard multicore analog snake. But I'll look forward to the day when I can string Cat5 or fiber instead. There are several digital snakes out there (Roland, Mackie, others), so some additional research is in order.

Ira

I think that's where I'm headed as well. I'm not going to want the ADC/DACs out of arm's reach for a while, not to mention the computer. I tend to do small shows, so there IS no dedicated monitor mixer...that would be me, too.

That being said, here's a neat way to leave your ADC/DAC at the stage and still have the computer back at FOH.

http://www.audiorail.com/

Note that this is NOT Ethernet and doesn't share the wire with other standard networking...it's just using the Ethernet PHY layer.

Scott

[Mountain Media]

I'm thinking he means rendered to MP3 or some such and sold on USB "thumb drives", which are dirt cheap in bulk (although not as cheap as CD-R). At least that's the way I interpreted it.

Scott

Thanks, Scott. This was my thinking as well, and was wondering what the process might be to do this effectively - I'd see a whole bank of USB hubs, all writing the final mp3 at once, or (?). Also, if it was a concert, probably, a lot of new ones would be sold with the audio - if a church service, where same folks are getting each week, could they bring back the TD and have it re-burned with new MP3? I know the process for doing this type of thing with CDs and DVDs (bank(s) of high-speed duplicators, but first I'd heard of doing this with USB - I live in 'olden times' and 'up in the mountains' - this is all magic to me!! :p Now, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast - thanks folks!!

[IraSeigel]

Thanks, Scott. This was my thinking as well, and was wondering what the process might be to do this effectively - I'd see a whole bank of USB hubs, all writing the final mp3 at once, or (?). Also, if it was a concert, probably, a lot of new ones would be sold with the audio - if a church service, where same folks are getting each week, could they bring back the TD and have it re-burned with new MP3? I know the process for doing this type of thing with CDs and DVDs (bank(s) of high-speed duplicators, but first I'd heard of doing this with USB - I live in 'olden times' and 'up in the mountains' - this is all magic to me!! :p Now, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast - thanks folks!!

Actually, the quote was from me.

This has been an ongoing project of mine for the past 2 years. Very successful - on a small scale - if I might say so myself. I was predicting that last summer we would be seeing many more groups doing this, but so far I've been wrong.

My prodecure is to record my shows with an English band called the FIXX. I record my mains mix to aWAV file in SAW. (I started using Tracktion, then "graduated" to SAW.) An 80-minute show is about 1.2GB. I record to my internal HD with a Fireface 800 or 400. (Last summer, I road tested a Tapco converter for them. It was fine, and very transportable.)

Immediately after the show, I use LAME and a front end called RazorLAME to convert that file to archival-quality MP3. I think at variable bit-rate, the entire file shrinks to about 10% of the original, or about 120MB. This takes 5 minutes, and in the meantime I'm disconnecting my Fireface and wrapping up my cables.

When the conversion is done, I do a quick MP3 tagging using a program called MP3Tag, including putting the band's logo GIF in the tag. Then I pack it all up and go to the merchandise area, where I've already had set up some AC and tables and chairs for the band to sit and sign autographs.

I have a 7-port D-Link USB hub, and after a quick setup I'm plugging in custom-printed 250MB USB sticks into the hub 4 at a time, then dragging and dropping my MP3 file into each window that pops up. Each USB "burn" takes about 30 seconds - MUCH faster than a CD burn and MUCH more reliable. With a single 7-port USB hub, I can safely make about 8 USBs a minute, and of course I could scale up if needed. There's a powered 16-port hub available from a company that imports cutting-edge Japanese stuff (I can't remember their name), which I'll get before my tour this summer.

Along with the MP3, since the capacity of the drives has gone up, I have room to also put a slideshow of photos. I could also do a Flash video, but I don't have one yet.

After the USBs are burned, I have an assistant that slips them into a clear plastic "blister pack" which also contains a card with the artwork for the band. The band members sign the card and the fan has a cool souvenir of the show.

Cost of the USBs in bulk is about US$8. Cost to the fan is $25. A nice profit margin.

The reviews from the fans have all been very positive, and the comments from those seeing it for the first time are "How cool! I haven't seen this before. Why aren't more bands doing this?" To which my reply is always, "You'll be seeing it VERY soon."

As to a question from John, above, we're now allowing the fans to recycle their USBs and have a new show burned on them for $10 or $15 I think. We're also selling these on the www.theFIXX.com (http://www.theFIXX.com) website, and fans can order a 2nd concert for an additional $10, I think. (But the insert card isn't autographed.) This year's USB will have an updated logo and artwork, just now being produced.

A main criteria for developing this system was that it had to be extremely portable. All of the gear needed to do this, including a decent quantity of USBs, will fit into my carry-on luggage.

For a pic of the product, you can navigate to the FIXX portion of my webpage: http://iraseigel.home.att.net/ (http://iraseigel.home.att.net/). I'm not advertising here, and I'm not inviting you to poke around my entire site. Just the FIXX info if you're interested.

Hope this helps.
Ira
PS Comments welcome

[Ian Alexander]

Ira, this USB drive as profit center idea is really cool. Great use of the technology. Scott C must be mad he didn't think of it first.;)

Is it one long mp3 file of the whole show? Does anybody ever ask about one mp3 per song? Maybe this cuts down on illegal uploading.

And John, we could use this approach at our church, except that the homebound, mostly senior folks who want to hear the services would say, "US -what?":)

[Warren]

Ira, this USB drive as profit center idea is really cool. Great use of the technology. Scott C must be mad he didn't think of it first.;)

Is it one long mp3 file of the whole show? Does anybody ever ask about one mp3 per song? Maybe this cuts down on illegal uploading.

And John, we could use this approach at our church, except that the homebound, mostly senior folks who want to hear the services would say, "US -what?":)


Really Ira "GREAT" idea for our church and shows also. U is a marketing wiz :D

What are you doing if a person wishes to have you load it on their USB drive?
or did I miss that?
Thanks for sharing

[IraSeigel]

Ira, this USB drive as profit center idea is really cool. Great use of the technology. Scott C must be mad he didn't think of it first.;)

Is it one long mp3 file of the whole show? Does anybody ever ask about one mp3 per song? Maybe this cuts down on illegal uploading.

And John, we could use this approach at our church, except that the homebound, mostly senior folks who want to hear the services would say, "US -what?":)

Ian, I had some questions in the forum a while back about the JMS Cue Sheet Generator, a SAW-native plug-in. It's perfect for this application, but I've only tested it in smaller recordings; not "live on tour". I'm sure, however, it will be exactly what I need to generate individual song markers instead of the one long 80 minute MP3 I'm burning to the drives now. Search "CSG" for that thread.

However, another of the criteria I had when I brainstormed this idea (other than needing to be very portable) is it needs to be very fast. When fans are waiting in line to buy product and get autographs, speed is of the essence. After the show, it takes me about 8 minutes to completely leave FOH with my laptop and my MP3 encoded, tagged and ready to go. I haven't tested this with the Cue Sheet Generator (CSG) to find out how much more time it would add to that process.

Ira

[IraSeigel]

Really Ira "GREAT" idea for our church and shows also. U is a marketing wiz :D

What are you doing if a person wishes to have you load it on their USB drive?
or did I miss that?
Thanks for sharing

That actually hasn't come up at the concerts. Part of the attraction of this thing is they get a red USB with "the FIXX" logo on it (see the photo on that webpage I referred to). But as I said, we'll be offering folks just the concert recording for $15 on their "old" FIXX USB drive this summer. We could make it $12.50, but it's too much of a hassle to make change, and at those merch tables, speed is everything.

Ira

[Warren]

I used to work with a group named "FAXX" that started out as "FAX", strange the names bands come up with. They later changed it to "The Brave" after getting signed by John and Deano Elafonte at Mastodon records not sure of the spelling, these were the guys from the band Kansas

Another was "The Force" I think they were Startrek junkies.:eek:

By the way I am not bagging on the name FIXX, I was reminded of the band I was working with and how close they are.

[IraSeigel]

I used to work with a group named "FAXX" that started out as "FAX", strange the names bands come up with. They later changed it to "The Brave" after getting signed by John and Deano Elafonte at Mastodon records not sure of the spelling, these were the guys from the band Kansas

Another was "The Force" I think they were Startrek junkies.:eek:

I did some shows with the Elefante brothers when they first moved to LA and had a baby band. Probably in the late '70s? I met them years later when they'd gotten into producing and their own label. Very nice guys, if I remember, as were their parents.

I'm not sure if either was actually in the band Kansas, but if they were it was probably as a replacement for one of the original members. I think they moved the state of Kansas to LA, or at least they were from somewhere in the midwest. I worked with Kansas a lot during the 90s when they'd open for REO Speedwagon, but I don't think either was in the band at that time.

Ira

[Warren]

I know they worked with Livgren for awile on some projects, havent heard much about any of them in a long time.
Maybe there working with those startrek junkies know.:D

[Mountain Media]

Actually, the quote was from me..................

My prodecure is to record my shows with an English band called the FIXX. I record my mains mix to aWAV file in SAW. (I started using Tracktion, then "graduated" to SAW.) An 80-minute show is about 1.2GB. I record to my internal HD with a Fireface 800 or 400. (Last summer, I road tested a Tapco converter for them. It was fine, and very transportable.)
..........................

For a pic of the product, you can navigate to the FIXX portion of my webpage: http://iraseigel.home.att.net/ (http://iraseigel.home.att.net/). I'm not advertising here, and I'm not inviting you to poke around my entire site. Just the FIXX info if you're interested.

Hope this helps.
'Ira
PS Comments welcome

Thanks, so much Ira!! This was exactly the info I was "wonderin' 'bout"!
A great option for concert take-aways, and so well packaged, commercially!

I have/have-had so many church clients who are continually wondering how to, effectively, distribute 'near-realtime' CDs and DVD of services, without banks and banks of duplicators at a significant cost. This option, at least for 'very near-realtime' audio, and potentially 'soon-time' DVD distribution is really interesting! I like the option you mentioned of having logoed USB sticks, and that you ARE giving the option to have a customer stick reburned/updated.

Thanks, again, for the info.

[AudioAstronomer]

Thanks, so much Ira!! This was exactly the info I was "wonderin' 'bout"!
A great option for concert take-aways, and so well packaged, commercially!

I have/have-had so many church clients who are continually wondering how to, effectively, distribute 'near-realtime' CDs and DVD of services, without banks and banks of duplicators at a significant cost. This option, at least for 'very near-realtime' audio, and potentially 'soon-time' DVD distribution is really interesting! I like the option you mentioned of having logoed USB sticks, and that you ARE giving the option to have a customer stick reburned/updated.

Thanks, again, for the info.

My band has started using usb sticks for distributing live recordings. We bring our own auxiliary micing kit for recording that's always setup in the same way (clips on amps and drums), often we just end up splitting to the house.. occasionally for small shows also ran entirely though sawstudio live mode straight to amp racks.

It's recorded into sawstudio, then all that's needed is a quick level check to match volume levels to the pre-determined mix. Takes all of 10 minutes. We have a mix template all setup, with some alternates setup in case of forseen oddness. I use the JMS stuff to mark and mixdown and convert to mp3, another 5 minutes at most.

Once that's done, it's rebooted into OSX (normally recorded on a macbook pro) or sent to a macbook. I have a script I turn on to automatically copy /home/user/live to any mounted USB device. This lets me make up to 3 drive-albums at once, only taking 30 about seconds each. (edit:if someone knows how to set this up in windows, please let me know)

We use 128mb flash drives that we source from clearance sales at local stores (fedex/kinkos, walmart, big lots etc..). Most I've paid for a lot is $1 each. Fedex in fact we were able to talk them into selling us their entire stock for $0.30 each. Ebay is also a good source.

A small vinyl sticker from stickerguy labels it :)

We resell them for $8, and usually have about 20 of them ready before the next band has even finished setting up.

They go as fast as we can make them. People think it's the coolest thing to be able to get a live recording of the show they just watched.. AND get what they perceive as a cheap thumbdrive.

I've had inquiries to do this for other bands we've played with, but I still havent figured out how to get a good mix so quickly. With our setup we know exactly what it's going to sound like with the exception of changed amp levels.

p.s. did I mention I love playing out again?

[IraSeigel]

I've had inquiries to do this for other bands we've played with, but I still havent figured out how to get a good mix so quickly. With our setup we know exactly what it's going to sound like with the exception of changed amp levels.


Yes, my mixes come off the stereo bus of the console, and I'm using the PA company's (or venue's) mics. Most of the time they've got at least SOME good condenders that I can use for ambient (audience) mics and guitars.

The big variable on a daily basis is the quality of the console's mic pre's and the quality of their outboard effects (since I don't carry any FOH gear with me). I've found after recording off of almost every band of analog desk out there that Midas makes the best mic pre's for consoles.

I'm REALLY looking forward to the consistency and quality of mixing from a fully transportable system of my RME/Behringer mic pre's and the dynamics and effects available in SAC.

And, regarding the USB drives, the capacity of the drives keeps going up for the same amount of money. For example, 2 years ago a 128MB drive cost about 11.50, in bulk, with logo and packaging. Last summer I was buying 256MB drives, same quantity, same artwork, for about $8.50 a piece.

I'm very much looking forward to being able to do some video also from FOH and burn that to the USB as well. I think Flash will be the format I use, since the files are small and of good quality. (I think Microsoft has a competing format that might be worth looking into.) I just don't have the gear and technical expertise yet.

Ira

[Naturally Digital]

p.s. did I mention I love playing out again?Robert, are you playing drums in your band?

[AudioAstronomer]

Robert, are you playing drums in your band?

yes

[Naturally Digital]

yesCool :cool:. When do we get to hear some samples? ;)

[IraSeigel]

Would this be a good thread to revive the endless drummer jokes?

Mark

Sure, we've discussed everything else in this one!

[Warren]

Sure, we've discussed everything else in this one!

What if you play Drums and Guitar is that double the joke?
Or just when you try it at the same time.:p

[ambler]

What if you play Drums and Guitar is that double the joke?

If we put you on a sloping riser with a chart in front of you...

[AudioAstronomer]

Cool :cool:. When do we get to hear some samples? ;)

When we get a proper website up. We're finishing up studio recording this weekend... (or so I'm told)

Maybe I could ask if I can post one of our live tracks.. the other guys are really set on it being strictly live only availability.

[Warren]

If we put you on a sloping riser with a chart in front of you...

Or a bunch of different sized Banjo's
Strings and skins same time Yeh!:D :p

[grantbatson]

This is not a related question, but I am hoping someone can tell me if I can use a SnowBall "Blue" mic with SAW. It is simply for recording new "ideas".
Thanks.

[mikebuzz]

Thats funny Robert a drummer friend of mine was in a band called Astronomy !!!

when the stage was level he would drewl out of BOTH sides of his mouth !!!!!!!

Later
Buzz:eek: :D

Now hes in a Rush tribute band ????

[IraSeigel]

This is not a related question, but I am hoping someone can tell me if I can use a SnowBall "Blue" mic with SAW. It is simply for recording new "ideas".
Thanks.

Sorry, but you'll need to be a bit more precise with your question. "Blue" as in a navy blue, or "Blue" as in an aqua? SAW will NOT work with royal or navy blue mics. Stick to the paler shades, and you'll be fine.

Ira
;)

[AudioAstronomer]

This is not a related question, but I am hoping someone can tell me if I can use a SnowBall "Blue" mic with SAW. It is simply for recording new "ideas".
Thanks.

It will work fine :)

[Warren]

Sorry, but you'll need to be a bit more precise with your question. "Blue" as in a navy blue, or "Blue" as in an aqua? SAW will NOT work with royal or navy blue mics. Stick to the paler shades, and you'll be fine.

Ira
;)
:D And I thought I was mean LOL:D :p

[IraSeigel]

:D And I thought I was mean LOL:D :p
You are! But I can be meaner!

Ira

[Warren]

You are! But I can be meaner!

Ira

Want to test that?

naw your right your meaner and uglyer as well u win:D

[Warren]

Want to test that?

naw your right your meaner and uglyer as well u win:D

Dude I'm just messing with ya, you got silent so fast whad up?

[IraSeigel]

Dude I'm just messing with ya, you got silent so fast whad up?

Trying to think of some witty comeback, and I came up blank!!

And I had a gig.

:)