Live or Memorex

[Eric]

With SAC on the way, and reading all the post, it's obvious that more here than what I thought does FOH or some kind of live sound. For those that do both,
what do you spend most of your time doing, live or studio work? How do you focus on each? If you could choose one to do what would it be? Could you choose one?

I myself like live work more than studio. I just don't have enough patience to sit there while some one works on a note or part of a song over and over and over and over and over and...well, you get the point. I also love the raw energy of a live event.
If SAC does get it's own forum a tips and techniques section would be cool!

[Oz Nimbus]

I'm a studio guy, but you wouldn't believe the amount of clients I have coming into the studio cursing local live engineers. Of course, those "engineers" also run the lights & the bar, too!

In other words, locally, there's a shortage of talent behind the board. I'd love a "live tips & tricks" section too, as I'd love to get into the live market.

-0z-

[Eric]

I'm a studio guy, but you wouldn't believe the amount of clients I have coming into the studio cursing local live engineers. Of course, those "engineers" also run the lights & the bar, too!

In other words, locally, there's a shortage of talent behind the board. I'd love a "live tips & tricks" section too, as I'd love to get into the live market.

-0z-

I think the live area suffers the same thing that studios are now experiencing, anyone can go out and buy a live rig and call himself an "engineer". Same as in the studio world where a person can buy an M-Box and have a Pro Tools studio!

[Dave Labrecque]

Same as in the studio world where a person can buy an M-Box and have a Pro Tools studio!

Hey, I resemble that remark! :mad: :p

[Leadfoot]

i've been doing live sound on a part time basis for over 20 years. i can definitely say that my small time work in the studio over that time with saw, has made me a better live engineer at the same time. everyone is so crazy with the new live gear that's available now, that i think a lot of them tend to overlook how important a good mix engineer is. it seems they are more focused on the latest great digital console, and all this ridiculously expensive crap, they spend more time over-analyzing all the techinical stuff and forget about the actual mix. i grew up back in the day with peavey, altec, shure, some of the best power amps were only 300 watts at best, voice of the theatre, sunn, blowing drivers was common.. now even the cheap gear is good compared to some of that stuff, and i will venture to say i can coax a pretty darn good mix out of all but the worst of systems today. i'm getting a little bored with all these super high end dolby lake processing, bss touting, nexo line array, performers that need 18 mixes on stage..blah blahs, and after all that the mix still sucks. i've heard the new digico sd7 will cost around 325 grand.. holy mother of god. even though i still like my comfortable little analog world, if sac turns out to be 1/100th of what it's said to be, it'll be worth a shot.

tony

[HapHazzard]

I'm small time Live and home studio now.
Starting in 1970 you flew by the seat of your pans every night so you got really good at making what every was in front of you work. We finally bought the all new Ashly Audio SC-6
http://www.ashly.com/images/relics/lres/sc-6.jpg
Neat analog stuff then and now!

I got to go in to do some studio time but live recording became our main gig. Bob of BandAids Sound had 4 Ampex machines, one of which was 4 track, all tube electronics and UREI, LA-3As and 1176s and the all new Tapco C-12 (it had a true patch bay built in) We did countless radio shows with that rig...sigh. Oh, the monitor was a portable AM/FM mono radio that sat right in the middle of the two C-12 mixers. I would not listen to the playback monitors (JBL) because I could not tell what was happening over the air so the radio station engineer had one and it became standard issue when working with the local stations. Pre-Auatone

I still have my ears and still fly by the seat of my pans.

Saw made it possible record like on a big console and now SAC means I'll be able to do pretty much what the big kids do...Network! of course alot smaller. In this day and age, you got to be light and quick.

Big studios, nope. Live sound and Live recording, oh heck ya! Lot more energy happening there.

Hap

[Warren]

Being more accustom to Live than Studio

I have seen so many "Engineers" working the club circuits in the L.A. area Country Club, Troubadour, Roxy etc. that can't for the life of them get vocals and guitars across. They are so focused on trying to get the kick to punch you in the chest that the rest of the mix goes south. They will get the room rattling and the system distorting, while missing every vox and gtr cue that comes at them. Then the audience goes home with there ears ringing:eek:

All to say if you want to do live work lay off the beer and pay attention, ask questions from those that have been there and don't be afraid to say you don’t know something, just show the initiative to find out, learn how the system works inside and out, be a great tech first.

I'll stop for now.

[ffarrell]

I stated out in the 60's with my dad's old ham radio left overs and old radios from the 30's and 40's. We would take a old radio apart to the frame then dad would come in and teach us what each part did.

I progressed to some army surplus stuff, then in time to a Tapco 6300B. Later the Peavey stuff hit the midwest with big knobs and more channels.

thanks
fvf

[Scott Anthony]

Later the Peavey stuff hit the midwest with big knobs and more channels.

thanks
fvf

I started live gigs in '85 working for an Top 40 agency with a 28 foot truck full of Peavey PA (4 way systems.) I think we had like 10 CS400s and 6 CS800s with those little crossover canisters. After four years in the clubs moved to NY and spent 90% of my time working in the studio, 10% live.

First gig in NY spent a couple years running a rehearsal room that was setup as if doing basic tracks. All headphones, drums mic'ed up, iso boxes for amps. Several 2 hour rehearsals a day, live experience definitely helped me bang out cohesive headphone and 2tk mixes within the alloted 10 minutes...

[IraSeigel]

Being more accustom to Live than Studio

I have seen so many "Engineers" working the club circuits in the L.A. area Country Club, Troubadour, Roxy etc. that can't for the life of them get vocals and guitars across. They are so focused on trying to get the kick to punch you in the chest that the rest of the mix goes south. They will get the room rattling and the system distorting, while missing every vox and gtr cue that comes at them. Then the audience goes home with there ears ringing:eek:

All to say if you want to do live work lay off the beer and pay attention, ask questions from those that have been there and don't be afraid to say you don’t know something, just show the initiative to find out, learn how the system works inside and out, be a great tech first.

I'll stop for now.

I was the house guy at the Country Club for a while. Also the Starwood. While another Ira ran the Roxy (let's just call him "Coke Ira"). Fun times.

Ira

[Warren]

I was the house guy at the Country Club for a while. Also the Starwood. While another Ira ran the Roxy (let's just call him "Coke Ira"). Fun times.

Ira

I am refering to approx 1983 to about 1988
Not sure if it was the House Eng or not at least at that time a lot of the METAL bands:rolleyes: would bring there own FOH ENG
which is a new system for them and may take a bit of time getting up to speed, but this was the every song:eek: PAIN!!!!!FULLLLLLLL:D

[Eric]

Great stories guys! I understand what you all are saying about the oversized kick syndrome. I think it's an ego thing or to overcompensate for other shortfalls!:eek:
Anyway, I think another reason may be that they have found something that works and are stuck in a rut or apathetic to change.Once, I found a house console in a large church with the input faders taped into postion!!:rolleyes:

[Warren]

I think it's just a sound style popularized by hard rock/heavy metal club bands whose music is based on high energy and power...and that's cool....but the inexperienced sound guys are weened on hard rock and hip hop and are not familiar with subtleties of musical arrangements.

Mark

I agree, but hard and punchy should not translate to mud, I heard many group that are mixed so that your lungs get kicked out of your chest and yet the vocals still pop right through and that same engineer can make a jazz band sound so sweet.

Oh and the inexperienced need to get off the T some time.:D

[Ian Alexander]

...and that same engineer can make a jazz band sound so sweet...
Anybody else think the New Orleans halftime show at the NBA All Star Game sounded awful? A wash of mush. I admit I was listening through a hotel room TV, but I've heard other things sound amazingly good on a TV set.

[Warren]

Anybody else think the New Orleans halftime show at the NBA All Star Game sounded awful? A wash of mush. I admit I was listening through a hotel room TV, but I've heard other things sound amazingly good on a TV set.

Problem is that it can sound stunning at the venue, but the feed that splits off for the broadcast is a different mix and I feel that their primary focus is video.
Leaving all of us with a set of ears in tears.

Sorry for all the video guys, no offence :D

[bassthumper]

I got my start in live sound (which I still primarily do most of) 20 years ago. 14 Years ago I got an offer to go into the Studio and apprentice with an engineer outside of Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Hated every minute of it so I went back to live and have been there ever since.

I got introduced to SAW Studio about a year and a half ago and it totally changed my attitude towards studio mix. I still prefer live over studio but SAW makes it bearable.

[Bruce Callaway]

I did live sound in the 80s in large and small venues as well as studio recording. I recall one large venue in Sydney where I mixed the support band. The PA was setup by the road crew for a top rock band at the time and the bottom end just kept going. There was no distinction in the bottom end, it was just one huge sound. The kick drum sounded like a bass guitar note. I am sure the skeletons in the nearby cemetery were shaking that night.

I went to watch a band at another gig one night where I regularly mixed live bands. I said hello to the guy mixing that night and he had done an engineering course and built the PA. He told me all about it. Yet his mix was one of the worst I have ever heard. Added to this, the drummer had two rack toms, pretty standard. This guy put a microphone between them that hardly worked. Then half way through the bands set, this microphone fell out of its housing and sat on the drum kit. The guy did nothing :eek:

I refer to these types as having cloth ears :)

[Warren]

I notice a lot of bands while I was doing the club circuit, either when writing there songs or by mistake would have guitars, bass and keys playing the same notes and chords at the same time creating repeating percussive sounds that fill the room with mud instead of letting the bass play bass parts , keys the keyboard part etc. The result is a very nasty mix that is hard to control, without excessive EQ and gain riding. These where just some of my less enjoyable nights.

[Eric]

I've seen a lot of keyboard players with a heavy left hand. ;)

[Eric]

This is interesting stuff for me. Great information! It's good to see a lot of people here doing both live and studio work. I find myself so narrow minded that I think I have to choose one or the other. You know, jack of all trades master of none kind of thing. How do you all balance doing both? Scheduling your time between studio and live, learning new things about each skill set, etc.?

[Warren]

I've seen a lot of keyboard players with a heavy left hand. ;)

Could be there right hand if their left handed. :D

[Warren]

This is interesting stuff for me. Great information! It's good to see a lot of people here doing both live and studio work. I find myself so narrow minded that I think I have to choose one or the other. You know, jack of all trades master of none kind of thing. How do you all balance doing both? Scheduling your time between studio and live, learning new things about each skill set, etc.?

I am more suited to live sound, only starting to get into studio in about 1988, so more of a master of none.:D

[Cary B. Cornett]

I was "the fill-in guy" at a local bar when the regular mix guy, a friend of mine, was out of town. I was never able to get anything close a sound I liked, although lots of band guys made positive comments about my work. The same PA system sounded remarkably good playing recordings.

I learned a lot about what an uphill battle it can be to get good sound when you have to fight room acoustics (yes the system WAS equalized) and really loud drum kits (more trouble even than the wash from the guitar backline). After quite a few nights at this, one night my ear rang badly afterwards, and I formally gave up mixing bar bands to save my hearing.

More recently I handled sound for a few stage musicals in community theater, where I was able to get much better results, not because the PA was better (it was not nearly as good, actually), but because levels in the pit were reasonable and the desired SPL in the house was a lot lower (thus not exciting room resonances as much).

I still like the studio environment much better. I like working in an environment where good sound is KING (more important than egos and testosterone), and where much more detailed control is possible. I like being able to "divide and conquer" the problems instead of having to fight EveryDamnThingAtOnce. I suspect that my personal motor skill challenges are a factor in this... :)

[Warren]

I was "the fill-in guy" at a local bar when the regular mix guy, a friend of mine, was out of town. I was never able to get anything close a sound I liked, although lots of band guys made positive comments about my work. The same PA system sounded remarkably good playing recordings.

I learned a lot about what an uphill battle it can be to get good sound when you have to fight room acoustics (yes the system WAS equalized) and really loud drum kits (more trouble even than the wash from the guitar backline). After quite a few nights at this, one night my ear rang badly afterwards, and I formally gave up mixing bar bands to save my hearing.

More recently I handled sound for a few stage musicals in community theater, where I was able to get much better results, not because the PA was better (it was not nearly as good, actually), but because levels in the pit were reasonable and the desired SPL in the house was a lot lower (thus not exciting room resonances as much).

I still like the studio environment much better. I like working in an environment where good sound is KING (more important than egos and testosterone), and where much more detailed control is possible. I like being able to "divide and conquer" the problems instead of having to fight EveryDamnThingAtOnce. I suspect that my personal motor skill challenges are a factor in this... :)

You know that a system can distort at even a low level and make your ears ring. That most likely was the issue, something was cliping and that can screwup your ears big time, even a little clip over time will chew you up!

[Bruce Callaway]

Live mixing had its funny side however. I had finished mixing a support band for a big touring act at a large club. To get to the band room, you either went backstage or outside the building and in through reception with took a few minutes. I wanted to go to the band room however the guard on the stage wouldn't let me through (I had been going that way all the time). He was built like a gorilla so I cut my losses and went the long way.

Shortly after that, I went down backstage from the band room inside the venue to watch the main band for a while. The manager of the main act saw me and asked me to stand guard where the gorilla was a few minutes ago as he (the gorilla) had to go to the toilet. So in 5 minutes flat, I was playing backstage guard for the guard who wouldn't let me go backstage. You gotta laugh!!!!

[studio-c]

More recently I handled sound for a few stage musicals in community theater, where I was able to get much better results, not because the PA was better (it was not nearly as good, actually), but because levels in the pit were reasonable and the desired SPL in the house was a lot lower (thus not exciting room resonances as much).

In one band I had, two of us played guitar. We each had Fender Princeton amps, and we put our amp savings into our PA system. It was wonderful, because the sound man could mix us properly (Shure SM57 mics), and we even got guitar in the wedge monitors so it was very surround-y on stage. Not to mention loading in and out was a breeze. BTW, we were playing punk/pop. Main speakers were Altec Lansing Voice of the Theatre A7s. One other thing, we brought our own sound guy, and paid him equally as a member of the band. Which of course, was still doodly squat :rolleyes: The point is, we valued a good sound.

Cheers,
Scott

[studio-c]

I notice a lot of bands while I was doing the club circuit, either when writing there songs or by mistake would have guitars, bass and keys playing the same notes and chords at the same time creating repeating percussive sounds that fill the room with mud
Rock players have a real hard time with dynamics, and sharing the sound spectrum. You had the Stanley Clarke "lead bass" up the neck, right with the guitar chunka chunka power chord. Keyboard left hand doing an octave on the root, same notes. Keyboard right hand fighting the lead guitar and vocalist, which were competing for the shrill end of things. Guitar always with the back pickup because it cuts thru better, and keyboard sawtoothing away. Good arrangements can make everyone sound better, but it's usually too late to teach the band when they get to the club. :)

I love the soundbite somewhere in Deep Purple's Made in Japan album, where Ian Gillian is asking for more in the monitor. "Can you make everything a little louder than everything else?" He gets the joke :D

Cheers,
Scott