Rethinking PA...

[sstillwell]

In anticipation of SAC, I'm rethinking my PA...

Goal: To build/acquire the smallest, deadliest rig that can be shoved in the back of a Honda Element with the back seats out. :) Definitely just a small club or small corporate engagement rig. Right now, I've got a mix of EV T-251+ and T-18s, 4 monitor mixes, all powered with Crown, a couple of racks of effect/eq/comp, a Soundcraft Spirit LX7-24...it's nearly bigger than the entire car, much less the inside of it. And every year it seems to be heavier than the year before...

I already have some small cabinets that are VERY nice sounding that I haven't used in a few years.

http://www.worxaudio.com/product_desc_wave.php?id=36

http://www.worxaudio.com/product_desc_wave.php?id=42

Unpowered, so I'll need something powerful and light...QSC PLX2, I think. My Crown K1s and K2s are really nice, but about 2-3 times as heavy as the QSCs.

Subs: http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/plx2/plx3602_specifications.htm

Tops: http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/plx2/plx1804_specifications.htm

Monitors: http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/plx2/plx1104_specifications.htm

Two monitor mixes is enough for the moment. If I need more than two mixes, I probably need to rent gear and people.

Need a few monitors of the small-but-deadly variety... ideas? I've got a hodgepodge of Yamaha Club IV series and Turbosound boxes at the moment...the Yamahas are really nice for the money, but 15" boxes and a bit big for the pack space available. The Turbosound boxes are louder than h*ll, but need more EQ than I've had the time to give them to sound right to my ears. They're a possibility, but I'm open to alternates.

Stands? check. Mics? check. Cables? Need to go through and weed out the bad ones and repair/replace as necessary, but most of the stuff is there...

Now, location...I can run my snake to/from the stage and FOH and run traditionally, substituting SAC and interfaces for the console, or I can set up a PC backline and Ethernet or Wi-Fi back to a laptop at FOH for control...but how do you pipe a cue signal back? I know this was mentioned earlier, but I'm not sure there was an answer...

Anyway, this is probably smaller than some (most) of y'all are thinking, but I'd appreciate any opinions/insights you may have.

Scott

[Warren]

Hi Scott:

I beleive Bob did mention that the Main SW part of SAC which is on stage will indeed have a media player of sorts for .wav or mp3 files also control track of sorts that is on a time line and you can setup cue points on it.

All this is can be controled by FOH remote control machine.

Hope that helps, as far a software micstands cables and the like that maybe in a future software mod.:D

[sstillwell]

I'm sorry, Warren, I meant cue in a different sense...as in PFL, to listen to individual soloed channels on headphones at FOH without interrupting the main signal.

Wav/MP3/OGG/whatever playback would be great for break music, however...

Scott

[Bob L]

For now you will still have to run a line level stereo feed to FOH position for solo... I will be working on an actual audio feed across the ethernet for just this purpose shortly after this pre-release gets going... so hopefully the need for any FOH snake lines will be avoided.

Bob L

[sstillwell]

Gotcha...for now I'll probably just run a snake, then...one fewer PC to carry around.

When it does get going over Ethernet, running Wi-Fi would be so cool...club owners will be happy if all the sound guy needs is a single 2-top table and a power outlet...all that space is just room for more customers that you're taking up.

Thanks,

Scott

[IraSeigel]

Gotcha...for now I'll probably just run a snake, then...one fewer PC to carry around.

When it does get going over Ethernet, running Wi-Fi would be so cool...club owners will be happy if all the sound guy needs is a single 2-top table and a power outlet...all that space is just room for more customers that you're taking up.

Thanks,

Scott

Yes, and who knows what lovely noises ice machines, cash registers and neon Coors Light signs will induce in an Ethernet "snake" or Wi-Fi! I, too, will run a standard audio snake for the first few months until we find out.

(Note to Warren: Actually, that was meant to be humorous. I'm not raining on anyone's parade here. I'm as excited as anyone about the impending release.)

Ira

[Eric]

If the signal running on the Ethernet line is digital there shouldn't be any noise induced. That's the beauty of digital snakes. I have no idea what could mess with Wifi.


Yes, and who knows what lovely noises ice machines, cash registers and neon Coors Light signs will induce in an Ethernet "snake" or Wi-Fi! I, too, will run a standard audio snake for the first few months until we find out.

(Note to Warren: Actually, that was meant to be humorous. I'm not raining on anyone's parade here. I'm as excited as anyone about the impending release.)

Ira

[ffarrell]

HI

Remember no audio will run down the ether cable.

thanks
fvf


Yes, and who knows what lovely noises ice machines, cash registers and neon Coors Light signs will induce in an Ethernet "snake" or Wi-Fi! I, too, will run a standard audio snake for the first few months until we find out.

(Note to Warren: Actually, that was meant to be humorous. I'm not raining on anyone's parade here. I'm as excited as anyone about the impending release.)

Ira

[Warren]

Yes, and who knows what lovely noises ice machines, cash registers and neon Coors Light signs will induce in an Ethernet "snake" or Wi-Fi! I, too, will run a standard audio snake for the first few months until we find out.

(Note to Warren: Actually, that was meant to be humorous. I'm not raining on anyone's parade here. I'm as excited as anyone about the impending release.)

Ira

Ira you seem fearful of my replies :D
I was not going to reply until I saw the dig:D
There are all kinds of nuts in this basket, glad I,m not alone.

[Warren]

HI

Remember no audio will run down the ether cable.

thanks
fvf

Not a this time but maybe in the future.
Digital and analog can be on the same wires without effecting each other. As can AC and DC signals

"
For now you will still have to run a line level stereo feed to FOH position for solo... I will be working on an actual audio feed across the ethernet for just this purpose shortly after this pre-release gets going... so hopefully the need for any FOH snake lines will be avoided.

Bob L
"

[HapHazzard]

Gotcha...for now I'll probably just run a snake, then...one fewer PC to carry around.A cheap laptop and a couple of used BFC2000 is way lighter and smaller then a 24ch snake.;)

When it does get going over Ethernet, running Wi-Fi would be so cool...club owners will be happy if all the sound guy needs is a single 2-top table and a power outlet...all that space is just room for more customers that you're taking up.Sending cueing over Ethernet, sure does. One of the down dirty ones was covered earlier (can't find the thread to link to). http://www.avovercat5.com/images/avo_a2_system1.gif (http://www.avovercat5.com/products/avoa2.htm)
There are many manufactures of moble industrial CAT5e/CAT6 multi channel cables for just this type of apps. The Boys with Tesla just have 2 CAT5 as in this thread Innovason, Digigram and SAW (http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6860)

Hap

[Cary B. Cornett]

Not a this time but maybe in the future.
Digital and analog can be on the same wires without effecting each other. As can AC and DC signals

"
For now you will still have to run a line level stereo feed to FOH position for solo... I will be working on an actual audio feed across the ethernet for just this purpose shortly after this pre-release gets going... so hopefully the need for any FOH snake lines will be avoided.

Bob L
" Understand that, at the hardware level, Bob's "monitor over network" feature will be just more data packets transmitted over the network. There will NOT be analog audio on the network cable. Also, AFAIK the way the signal is fed over the cable it will NOT play nice with any analog signal trying to use the same wires.

On the good side, however, is that if none of the EMI/RFI floating around disturbs the control information passed over the network, it won't affect the digitally encoded audio either. For the most part, Cat5 cabling and its associated interface points in the equipment are designed in such a way that they will usually "ignore" airborne electrical interference.

[Mountain Media]

Understand that, at the hardware level, Bob's "monitor over network" feature will be just more data packets transmitted over the network. There will NOT be analog audio on the network cable. Also, AFAIK the way the signal is fed over the cable it will NOT play nice with any analog signal trying to use the same wires.

Just as a note - not a technical 'spec' validation -- I've used Cat5 to send DC voltage, analog composite TV (video and stereo combo) and digital signals over the same cable. Remember, Cat5 is actually 4 separate 'cables' running in one skin, similar to a multi-pair audio cable. I used home-grown breakout boxes to separate each twisted-pair into a separate feel at each end. The run was about 150' and worked without any 'detectable' (visually or aurally) interferences. Though this is NOT a 'standard' use of Cat5 (no 'industry standard' wiring/adapters, etc.), it has worked fine for several years.

As Cary said, signals should 'play' even nicer if they are all digital within the the ethernet cabling system.

[HapHazzard]

Just as a note - not a technical 'spec' validation -- I've used Cat5 to send DC voltage, analog composite TV (video and stereo combo) and digital signals over the same cable. Remember, Cat5 is actually 4 separate 'cables' running in one skin, similar to a multi-pair audio cable. I used home-grown breakout boxes to separate each twisted-pair into a separate feel at each end. The run was about 150' and worked without any 'detectable' (visually or aurally) interferences. Though this is NOT a 'standard' use of Cat5 (no 'industry standard' wiring/adapters, etc.), it has worked fine for several years.

As Cary said, signals should 'play' even nicer if they are all digital within the the ethernet cabling system.Hi John,
OK alittle expantion on this look at cable run options. I'm not a IT tech but I do understand alot about making what you have work.

I noticed that there are pair that are not being used.

http://www.incentre.net/incentre/images/ethcable03.gif

And with a breakout box I might be able to use these pairs. Of course, if not approched correctly, like not using in spec cable or low-fi componets, it could be very ugly.

As an example of what could run down the pairs (this is all new to me so bare with me), companies like Intelix (http://www.avovercat5.com/products/avoa2.htm) make all kinds of hardware. Looking at the AVOA2_450dpi (http://www.avovercat5.com/images/AVOA2_450dpi.gif), without the manual, it looks like I could run down the alt pair by re-routing to the unused pairs of the ether run. This would give me at least 2 pairs of audio from/to the Core rack. I could route cue (mono) and send a talkback back to the Core rack. At FOH a small headphone amp and a single mic preamp. That would bring the run count back down to 1.

The broadcasting community seems to be in the pocket with the Mobile CAT cable solutions. I did run across a Stranded copper CAT5e spec and many other with mobile remote appications.
http://www.gepco.com/pictures/pr/pr_prod_cts4504hdx.jpg

Thanks
The hunt continues.

Hap

[Mountain Media]

Hi John,
OK alittle expantion on this look at cable run options. I'm not a IT tech but I do understand alot about making what you have work.

I noticed that there are pair that are not being used.

http://www.incentre.net/incentre/images/ethcable03.gif

And with a breakout box I might be able to use these pairs. Of course, if not approched correctly, like not using in spec cable or low-fi componets, it could be very ugly.

Thanks
The hunt continues.

Hap

Hi, Hap. Your approach is the 'concept'. I'd never say any alternate connections would work until they were tried. Crosstalk and length can be critical with Cat5/5e/6. That being said --

What I did, that I mentioned in my earlier post, was to make (similar to your thoughts) breakout boxes that, internally, routed various twisted pair to whatever I wanted, and connected various length patch cables to what was needed external to the box.

Note, in your image, the 'straight' and 'crossover' - I assume you understand that the straight is an ethernet cable which connects an adapter to a router/switch (etc.), and the crossover is the equivalent connection directly connected between two adapters (thus the crossover of the transmit/receive signals). Also, you may have noted there are two 'standard' ethernet configurations T568A and T568B. The difference is that they use different twisted-pair combinations to do the same job - related to crosstalk susceptibility, I believe. I usually wire to T568B, since it's more common, though either is fine. Just keep the same configuration (A or B) within one install, for ease of P/D if needed.

What I was doing was connecting remote pin-hole cameras to a viewing station. The camera setups required 1) DC power, 2) video/audio feeds (composite) and, 3) data signals for controlling pan/tilt/focus (through digital/analog converters at camera end). I kept the data as standard ethernet config in the twisted-pairs, so standard 8P8C (RJ45) plugs will work on those pairs. I then ran the DC (12V, I think) down one unused twisted-pair, and the other twisted pair was connected, via baluns at each end (Intelix similar), to carry the composite vid/R/L-audio signals). The homebrew breakout boxes each had an RJ45 jack, three RCA jacks for vid and R/L audio, and a DC jack for wall-wart input.

(ONLY FOR COMPARISON) - I runs up to (almost) 30M for a couple of these runs. I had a couple runs of almost 50M, though for those I placed the wallwarts (DC supplies) at the cameras, because of probable voltage drop through the Cat5e cable.

I don't remember the brand of baluns I used, but they were of enough quality that the composite TV signal was similar to a normal video/stereo signal you would expect from the output of a consumer VCR (as tested with VCR and DVD player, not the cameras used) - the pin-hole cameras with built-in mics were NOT close to 'standard' consumer quality vid/audio signal quality!!:)

This configuration has been working for about 5 years and had not had a failure as of my last knowledge of the install (about 1 year ago). As a matter of fact, an additional run at the same installation, which had a similar configuration at the camera end, took the composite vid/audio signal from the balun, converted it to digital signal, put it on an ST fiber for almost 1/4 mile run, re-converted it to analog, and fed it to the monitor station. AMAZING what you can do with cabling (metal and optical) these days!!

Personally, if it wasn't for the fragility of the cables, I'd opt to setup SAC with optical fiber -- about 1/4 the diameter of Cat5. The converters to/from optical signal as well as the optical cable, are much more expensive, though, relative to baluns - and, obviously, can't carry any DC voltages (which I'd not see anyone wanting in a SAC setup).

[IraSeigel]

Just a thought here. Please tell me if I'm way off base.

Could the cueing function be a good candidate for WiFi? Since it's not "mission critical", perhaps cueing could be done this way until Bob designs a more elegant solution.

Ira

[HapHazzard]

Hi, Hap. Your approach is the 'concept'. I'd never say any alternate connections would work until they were tried. Crosstalk and length can be critical with Cat5/5e/6. That being said --There's is quite a list at AVoverCAT5.com (http://www.avovercat5.com/faq.htm)


What I did, that I mentioned in my earlier post, was to make (similar to your thoughts) breakout boxes that, internally, routed various twisted pair to whatever I wanted, and connected various length patch cables to what was needed external to the box. Looking into that now.http://www.winfordeng.com/products/pic/brk8p8c.jpg

Note, in your image, the 'straight' and 'crossover' - I assume you understand that the straight is an ethernet cable which connects an adapter to a router/switch (etc.), and the crossover is the equivalent connection directly connected between two adapters (thus the crossover of the transmit/receive signals). Also, you may have noted there are two 'standard' ethernet configurations T568A and T568B. The difference is that they use different twisted-pair combinations to do the same job - related to crosstalk susceptibility, I believe. I usually wire to T568B, since it's more common, though either is fine. Just keep the same configuration (A or B) within one install, for ease of P/D if needed.Opps, wrong image. should be...http://www.cdaschools.org/lchs/faculty/bkeylon/comptech/Wiring/images/RJ-45.gif
Weather it's A or B, the locations on the RJ45 should stay the same. Blue/White and Brown/White pairs.

(ONLY FOR COMPARISON) - I runs up to (almost) 30M for a couple of these runs. I had a couple runs of almost 50M, though for those I placed the wallwarts (DC supplies) at the cameras, because of probable voltage drop through the Cat5e cable.Far enough for what I will try and it's just audio......for now.
As a matter of fact, an additional run at the same installation, which had a similar configuration at the camera end, took the composite vid/audio signal from the balun, converted it to digital signal, put it on an ST fiber for almost 1/4 mile run, re-converted it to analog, and fed it to the monitor station. AMAZING what you can do with cabling (metal and optical) these days!!Pretty neat.
Personally, if it wasn't for the fragility of the cables, I'd opt to setup SAC with optical fiber -- about 1/4 the diameter of Cat5. The converters to/from optical signal as well as the optical cable, are much more expensive, though, relative to baluns - and, obviously, can't carry any DC voltages (which I'd not see anyone wanting in a SAC setup).Broadcasters have got a all kinds options but at a price. http://www.telecast-fiber.com/products/portable/uploads/viper1-sdwr.jpg

For now I'll work on a breakout for 2 audio feed in and out to the Core PC and check back in later.
Thanks and Cheers.

Hap

[HapHazzard]

Just a thought here. Please tell me if I'm way off base.

Could the cueing function be a good candidate for WiFi? Since it's not "mission critical", perhaps cueing could be done this way until Bob designs a more elegant solution.

IraNot knowing how PC WiFi works, I would think WiFi is a single band broadcast or a multi dedicated to the ethernet connectivity. You would need a multi band to carry the cues seprately. Now we should be talkin' bucks!
Hap

[sstillwell]

Well now...

Coming back around to the top of the subject, I think I can get away with minimal expenditure and still get the job done.

Going to stick with my Crown amps for now, although I'll probably get some individual 2U racks to put them in so I don't have to lug 75-150 lbs of amps at one time. QSC is a definite upgrade down the road, but there's not a thing wrong with the sound of the Crown boxes.

I think I'll try to snag a few more of these 12" Turbosound boxes for monitors. They're not bad for the money, and I just can't afford/justify the money for Radian Microwedges.

Sometime in the next evening or two I'm gonna yank the back seats out of the Element and see what it all packs like. Wish me luck!

Scott

PS: Is it a week yet??? ;)

[IraSeigel]

Well now...


Going to stick with my Crown amps for now, although I'll probably get some individual 2U racks to put them in so I don't have to lug 75-150 lbs of amps at one time.

Scott

PS: Is it a week yet??? ;)

Yeah, it all means squat if you're back goes out! :) Careful! Lift from the knees. (This is where the studio guys have us at a disadvantage ;) )

Ira

[Bob L]

It seems to me that an elegant and simple solution is to simply use an inexpensive wireless in-ears transmitter on stage with the belt-pack receiver clipped to your belt at FOH... this way the SOLO mix follows you wherever you walk in the venue... lots of possible choices for this type of solution.

Bob L

[Naturally Digital]

It seems to me that an elegant and simple solution is to simply use an inexpensive wireless in-ears transmitter on stage with the belt-pack receiver clipped to your belt at FOH... this way the SOLO mix follows you wherever you walk in the venue... lots of possible choices for this type of solution.That's a great idea!

[HapHazzard]

It seems to me that an elegant and simple solution is to simply use an inexpensive wireless in-ears transmitter on stage with the belt-pack receiver clipped to your belt at FOH... this way the SOLO mix follows you wherever you walk in the venue... lots of possible choices for this type of solution.

Bob L
There Ya Go!
Hap

[sstillwell]

It seems to me that an elegant and simple solution is to simply use an inexpensive wireless in-ears transmitter on stage with the belt-pack receiver clipped to your belt at FOH... this way the SOLO mix follows you wherever you walk in the venue... lots of possible choices for this type of solution.

Bob L

Oooo...nice! Good idea. You always think of in-ears for the artist, not for the FOH guy. That's thinking outside the box (which I was firmly trapped in).

Or just use the in-ear receiver with regular headphones (if it has enough drive...).

Scott

[Cary B. Cornett]

It seems to me that an elegant and simple solution is to simply use an inexpensive wireless in-ears transmitter on stage with the belt-pack receiver clipped to your belt at FOH... this way the SOLO mix follows you wherever you walk in the venue... lots of possible choices for this type of solution.

Bob L Fine idea, but also more expensive than Wi-Fi hardware, which might be an important consideration for some of us. I still think the ability to feed monitor audio over the network would be a big plus.

[Bob L]

Well... there are plenty of wireless headphone transmitter/receiver systems out there... at least there used to be not long ago.

Bob L

[Cary B. Cornett]

Well... there are plenty of wireless headphone transmitter/receiver systems out there... at least there used to be not long ago.

Bob L True, but if someone already has Wi-Fi capability it would be nice for them not to have to buy the extra hardware :cool:

[Bob L]

But these devices already work pretty well in a show type environment... WiFi may still have many issues in those environments with all the Lighting and other interference from frequencies jamming the airwaves.

Bob L