24 inputs

[Eric]

Hi all,
For live recording, I'm looking to get 24 inputs into SAW. What do you recommend that would be super stable? I looked at some stuff and thought I might be better off getting an Alesis HD24 then bringing the tracks in through firewire, does anyone have any experiences? I am open to suggestions. BTW Sydek has a nice box, anyone have a used one they want to sell? :D

[AudioAstronomer]

HD24 has it's own problems... I've had them cut-off inexplicably in the middle of recording many times, and the filesystem is very intolerant of improper shutdown.

Otherwise... I'd personally go with 3x motu 896hd or a fireface with some converter boxes of choice.

Looking for pci/pci-e or cardbus/expresscard?

[Bill Park]

Hi all,
For live recording, I'm looking to get 24 inputs into SAW. What do you recommend that would be super stable? I looked at some stuff and thought I might be better off getting an Alesis HD24 then bringing the tracks in through firewire, does anyone have any experiences? I am open to suggestions. BTW Sydek has a nice box, anyone have a used one they want to sell? :D

RME Digiface.

[Bob L]

RME Digiface and PCI card for a desktop or Cardbus for a laptop. No question... this is very stable...

Bob L

[Eric]

Sorry, I knew what I was talking about...no one else did! That's what I get for posting so early. I need 24 analog inputs into a PCI desktop.
Thanks.

[Craig Allen]

RME Digiface or RME HDSP 9652 and whatever converters you want - Behringers or better.

[AudioAstronomer]

Sorry, I knew what I was talking about...no one else did! That's what I get for posting so early. I need 24 analog inputs into a PCI desktop.
Thanks.

Then stick 3 ada8000's in front of the digiface :)

[HapHazzard]

Are you looking for a 24ch analog mixer then to PCI? Like the Mackie?
http://www.mackie.com/products/onyx1640/images/TOP_Onyx1640_RR.jpg

I looked into mixers like this and found that I could do so much more with SAW then with the hardware. But I did try the mixer route first. I ended up with a Tascam DM-24 and 3 sets of ADAT light pipe.
http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=378&stc=1&d=1204295341
You can get them REAL cheap now and after you get past the routing, you'll find that it is a great Analog to Digital desk. You can even push it to 32 channel by adding two Behringer ADA8000 to it. Plus they come with a bank of usable effects, microphones and monitor models. At the PC end you would need at less a HDSP9652 from RME. They well work as a Live/Recording desk for remote.

Before you know it though, I figure you'll come over to the "Dark Side":eek: and have 2 or 3 ADA8000 and a HDSP9652 like the most of us run with now!
Ah AHAHhahahhahaah......sorry I scared myself!:D

Hap

[Eric]

We're building a remote system and the front end is a 24 channel Ramsa console. I want to go direct out from that into SAW. I don't think I left out anything else, sorry for the confusion.
I wouldn't need pre-amps. just A/D conversion for 24 channels.

[Eric]

Before you know it though, I figure you'll come over to the "Dark Side":eek: and have 2 or 3 ADA8000 and a HDSP9652 like the most of us run with now!
Ah AHAHhahahhahaah......sorry I scared myself!:D

Hap
Now that's funny!! :D :D

[cgrafx]

I actually use an HD24 XR as the front end. I get 24 channels of very nice A/D, the ability to record directly on the HD24, or I can do both at the same time (the A/D converters output live whether recording to the HD 24 or not).

[HapHazzard]

We're building a remote system and the front end is a 24 channel Ramsa console. I want to go direct out from that into SAW. I don't think I left out anything else, sorry for the confusion.
I wouldn't need pre-amps. just A/D conversion for 24 channels.In that case, is it the Motu you're looking for?
http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/HD192/images/HD192stack.jpg
I'm not a expert on Motu, but it looks like the spec you're asking.
No pre-amps just A/D - D/A by 12in 12out at 192KHz
You need the PCI host card that supports it.
Hap

[Bob L]

Why complain about the extra preamps... in case you need em... at $230 for 8 channels... what's there to comlain about... an RME... digiface... 3 Behringer ADA8000... you simply will not find a better and more solid solution anywhere near that same budget.

Bob L

[Eric]

Bob, You don't think they would add extra noise? Do the ADA8000's take a line signal?

[Fat Cat Music]

Hello,

If you do not want to use the Behringers with the RME Digiface you could try to find three Frontier Design Tango24 converters or three Alesis AI3's (which by the way uses the same chip as a standard blackface ADAT).

I have used Frontier Audio in the past Wave Center, Dakota, Tango 24, Sierra and now Alphatrack with great success. The Tango 24 is no longer in production but sells when you can find them for around $350 to $500 on ebay. The Tango 24 was a highly regarded -10 or +4 interface that had a niche market and lacked the big-bucks advertising budget of a company like Apogee.

In my oppinion since the Behringer uses a better converter chip than the Alesis AI3 there is no reason to try to find any of those.

You could consider using Presonus or Audient eight channel pre's but they are significantly more money and the Presonus uses the same converter the Behringer does (you are paying for the "better" mic pre's).

Audient is a still more expensive option. The mic pre's are very nice.

I have an Apogee Rosetta 800 I use with an RME9652 but I have never tried putting three 9652's in one computer for 24 tracks.

There is a significant difference between the Behhringer and the Apogee (several thousand dollars comes to mind first and oh yeah the sound is better too).

I can't tell the difference between the Tango 24 and the Apogee when the Apogee is set to the highest resoltion the Tango will produce but the Apogee can go not just to ELEVEN:eek: but to Twelve :eek: :eek: yup you are right - no more black!

In reality, three Behringer ada8000's with an RME Digiface are a combination that is hard to beat at any price... Only because the Tango 24's are hard to find.

Have fun
D Robert Burroughs

[UpTilDawn]

I've gotta agree with the Digiface route... one box and one pci card (for desktop), with 3 Behringers in a 6-space rack case (to allow some air space) is gonna be pretty tough to beat. Line level inputs is not a problem... each channel has a balanced xlr and 1/4" jack.

I've been using a very similar setup on a XP/PIV/2.4G desktop for over five years with barely a whimper at 16-32 channels. My only hassles were with the old graphics card and not enough ram..... those have both been upgraded in the last year and it runs like a champ now.

DanT

[Perry]

Hi Eric,

As always (more or less) I recommend the SSL-Soundscape (Sydec) iBox 48-TA... ideally along with the Mixpander 9 as soundcard. If used with the Mixpander as a soundcard you actually then have 24 analog I/O plus an additional 24 digital I/O available for connecting more AD/DA converters or to a digital console or whatever's needed.. for up to 48 I/O... all in one box (except for the additional ad/da). I don't believe anything else on the market offers this much flexibility in a single box... at least not that I'm aware of.

But... OTOH... the Behringer is definitely hard to beat for the price and arguably it can't be beat, for the price. And yes... I do have one! ;)

You're not wanting the mic pres in the Behringer so this may not apply but, in use I did much prefer my Soundscape signal path (the 48 TA plus the Mixpander-9 soundcard) to the Behringer for recording quiet sources... like smaller acoustic instruments. I had to basically run the Behringer's essentially wide open to get enough gain. Again though, that's the mic pres.

And OTOH.. I did get enough gain at that point and they did sound totally OK. Frankly, amazingly so. Also... you could get a literal pile of Behringers for the price of the Soundscape 48 TA.

OTOH again... :rolleyes: ... the Soundscape is quite the deal for an upscale unit with 24 analog I/O. It also gives you the 24 analog I/O in a single unit with D-Subs for cabling, which might be a plus for you... or maybe not.. depending on how you intend to cable up. FWIW... I quite like this arrangement myself... ymmv though. I have D-Sub snakes and cabling up is fast and neat.

The Soundscape box also gives you a nice headphone output directly on the front panel of the unit (anything sent to the last stereo pair appears at the headphone jack) and I've used that at times for live stuff and it's worked great for me.

To add: I have also rented other mid/low priced AD/DA units for live recording and to their credit the Behringer performed as well.. or possibly better... than at least some of those and probably anything and everything anywhere near that price point... but for less money still.

OTOH.. my Behringer may have broken... not sure. The last time I tried it I got no signal but haven't had time to fully test this and the problem may be elsewhere in the signal chain. Haven't done any live gigs lately and haven't gotten around to properly testing it.

OTOH.. the other one again... :rolleyes: .. for the price you could have 2-3 spares and if one breaks just toss it... if that doesn't bother you. For the price I don't think having them repaired is really much of an option.

My take on this all is that if you want to go low price then definitely consider the Behringers... if you want to go more up scale (or whatever you want to call it) then definitely check out the SSL-Soundscape stuff since you are wanting 24 I/O and you can get that all in one box this way (with no offense meant to all the RME'ers here:) ).

Best of luck..
Perry

[Bruce Callaway]

Hi Perry

The SSL-Soundscape (Sydec) iBox 48-TA definitely interests me for all the reasons you listed. I am still trying to work out how I get the output from the iBox 48-TA into a laptop? Is this possible?

Cheers

[DominicPerry]

Hi Perry

The SSL-Soundscape (Sydec) iBox 48-TA definitely interests me for all the reasons you listed. I am still trying to work out how I get the output from the iBox 48-TA into a laptop? Is this possible?

Cheers

The only way I've found to use the Soundscape stuff or the Lynx cards with a laptop is using a Magma chassis. They are very expensive ($1500-$2000).
If you are going to spend this kind of money on a laptop solution, you might prefer to look at the new RME HDSPeMADIFace and link some good convertors to that.

Dominic

[Carlos Mills]

Hey Perry!


Hi Eric,

My take on this all is that if you want to go low price then definitely consider the Behringers... if you want to go more up scale (or whatever you want to call it) then definitely check out the SSL-Soundscape stuff since you are wanting 24 I/O and you can get that all in one box this way (with no offense meant to all the RME'ers here:) ).

Best of luck..
Perry

How do you dare saying that! ;) just kidding...
I have a friend who had ordered a Mixpander; and I was very curious in seeing it working... but it seems that the guy he bought it from was not very honest, and his package got stuck in Costumes here in Brazil... never got out... :confused:
Although I am very happy with RME, the Sydec option always seemed another nice route...

Cheers,

[Eric]

Perry,
Thanks for the input....how many hands do you have?;)

[Perry]

Hey Perry!



How do you dare saying that! ;) just kidding...
I have a friend who had ordered a Mixpander; and I was very curious in seeing it working... but it seems that the guy he bought it from was not very honest, and his package got stuck in Costumes here in Brazil... never got out... :confused:
Although I am very happy with RME, the Sydec option always seemed another nice route...

Cheers,

I know about that! That thing NEVER got there?!??! :eek: Oh my... sorry to hear that.

As to the other thing.... Well... I honestly mean no offense. People can be protective or whatever.. understandable. I just sincerely like my Soundscape stuff and feel that in at least some instances it may fit the bill for some others... it does have quite a list of features. But, I know too that not everyone needs (or wants) these necessarily and in the end everyone makes their own choices anyway... just adding to the list. :)

And besides.... as Lance Armstrong said: "It's not about the sound card!"

Errrr...... He said that.. right? ;) :)

Cheers,

Perry

[Perry]

Perry,
Thanks for the input....how many hands do you have?;)

Who's counting??? :p :D On the Other Hand.... Actually it doesn't matter.. there always seems to be another one.. on the 'other' hand. :)

All the best,

Perry

[studio-c]

And besides.... as Lance Armstrong said: "It's not about the sound card!"

Errrr...... He said that.. right? ;) :)

Cheers,

Perry

:D Absolutely!

[Superstrings]

Hi,

Soundscape user here, and my first post.

One important thing is: the Soundscape drivers directly support SAWStudio's own DWave driver protocol, and although SAWStudio does not absolutely need it, I believe that it is still technically better than ASIO.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that the Soundscape hardware also comes with a very advanced mixer software, very flexible for anything you may want to do now or in the future, and access to some exclusive DSP based plug-ins.

Now that SSL is behind Soundscape, some nice EQs have been added and hopefully there will be some more. I like the Drawmer compressor, SSL console EQ and filters and EACM EQs (made to emulate Neve and API).

They have a page about using Soundscape hardware with SAWStudio: http://www.sydec.be/Applications/Soundscape/Articles/ID/b079cd99-6c46-45a8-953d-80f1d4ff6a7b/Soundscape+power+for+SAWStudio%e2%84%a2/

Of course you don't have to use complex software mixer configurations. It can work in a very basic way. It's just that the facility is there should you want to use it.

[Perry]

The only way I've found to use the Soundscape stuff or the Lynx cards with a laptop is using a Magma chassis. They are very expensive ($1500-$2000).
If you are going to spend this kind of money on a laptop solution, you might prefer to look at the new RME HDSPeMADIFace and link some good convertors to that.

Dominic

Well... yes and no to the price of a chassis. I paid around $150.00 (if I recall correctly) off eBay for mine. It's an older Pro Tools branded 32 bit chassis.. but works totally fine for me and I've been using it for years. Admittedly I got a good deal (bought it the day after Christmas or something like that, when not many people were bidding).

But too... that's for a PCI host chassis that of course won't work with a laptop. But you can still source a used laptop chassis for that purpose for less money.

On the other hand :)... Yes... it can be an expensive solution.

Still, it is possible to do and it does have benefits worth considering.

Personally... if I were doing live recording on a regular basis, I'd build a rig into a small tower (or even a mini-tower or home entertainment type box.. very small) and set it all up for easy transport so that I wouldn't have any restrictions. In fact I have done that. :)

I have a separate rig for live work that also doubles in my studio as a midi rig. I have two 16 I/O Mixtreme cards in it that can be clocked together via wordclock (or TDIF depending on how I set up the AD/DA) and gives me the capability of 32 I/O. The whole thing.. case, keyboard, mouse, etc fits into a padded bag with handles. The monitor fits in it's original foam padded box with handle and I can carry the whole computer rig with two hands in one trip (the AD/DA and Mic pres are in a separate small road rack). Perhaps Slightly more trouble than a laptop but not much (at least as I see it) ... and allows more options and flexibility; easier to upgrade or repair and so on.

This of course is 'MY' solution... others obviously have different ideas about this. For various reasons, I've just never caught the laptop bug and I'm just not interested in that route so it isn't an issue to me.

Soundscape and SSL by the way also offer MADI solutions if anyone wants to take that route. You could even... (gasp!) :eek: link RME and SSL-Soundscape products this way as far as I know.

All the best,

Perry

[Perry]

Hi,

Soundscape user here, and my first post.

One important thing is: the Soundscape drivers directly support SAWStudio's own DWave driver protocol, and although SAWStudio does not absolutely need it, I believe that it is still technically better than ASIO.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that the Soundscape hardware also comes with a very advanced mixer software, very flexible for anything you may want to do now or in the future, and access to some exclusive DSP based plug-ins.

Now that SSL is behind Soundscape, some nice EQs have been added and hopefully there will be some more. I like the Drawmer compressor, SSL console EQ and filters and EACM EQs (made to emulate Neve and API).

They have a page about using Soundscape hardware with SAWStudio: http://www.sydec.be/Applications/Soundscape/Articles/ID/b079cd99-6c46-45a8-953d-80f1d4ff6a7b/Soundscape+power+for+SAWStudio%e2%84%a2/

Of course you don't have to use complex software mixer configurations. It can work in a very basic way. It's just that the facility is there should you want to use it.

Thanks for posting Superstrings! Nice to meet another Soundscpae user here. :) And thanks for posting the link. I like that page! :)

And I like this tid bit that's there:

"The DWave driver in particular, originated by Bob Lentini, is exclusive to SAWStudio, and Sydec Audio Engineering has been the first major company to support it."

I believe they're the 'only' company to support DWave .. are they not? :) At any rate.. it's a great place to check out the possibility of using SSL-Soundscape with SAWStudio.

Thanks again Superstrings,

Perry

[Bruce Callaway]

Soundscape and SSL by the way also offer MADI solutions if anyone wants to take that route. You could even... (gasp!) :eek: link RME and SSL-Soundscape products this way as far as I know.

All the best,

PerryHi Perry, thats what I am considering, an iBox 64 MADI TA that I can use with a RME HDSP MADI in the studio DAW and with a the new RME MADIFACE Laptop express card when it is available. The reason for the RME MADI over a Mixtreme192 card is that it offers more channels that is, 32 at 96 Khz.

[Perry]

Hi Perry, thats what I am considering, an iBox 64 MADI TA that I can use with a RME HDSP MADI in the studio DAW and with a the new RME MADIFACE Laptop express card when it is available. The reason for the RME MADI over a Mixtreme192 card is that it offers more channels that is, 32 at 96 Khz.

Hi Bruce,

Cool!!! :cool: That should be a very nice high I/O count solution. Let us know about if you do get that.. would love to hear how it works out. :)

FWIW, I use the Mixpander 9 card in my main DAW which has up to 48 I/O capability... but no MADI and that cards is 'LONG'! It requires a full length slot but some smaller cases provide one or two full length slots in their design.. like the Antec Sonata (series 1 or 3..not 2).. which is what I use. So you don't have to use a server case or whatever.

The Mixtreme 192 is considered an 'entry' level card and has it's limits for certain... while still having a lot of offer.

SSL by the way has a few 'proprietary' versions of the Soundscape products that are configured differently and offer different feature sets than the 'Soundscape' models. You can check them out on their site if you haven't seen them already.

But, it sounds though like you've got it all figured out already. So I'll just add... Good luck with it and let us know how it works. :)

All the best,

Perry