DX or VST plugs ???

[mikebuzz]

Which plugs are preferred for the Saw platform ??? any one better than the other or less latency etc.

Thanks
Buzz

Sorry about all the posts but I need the info
:eek:

[TotalSonic]

In general it is best to use SAW Native plugins! :) - they are easily fully
automateable and are amazingly cpu efficient - not to mention I haven't heard one that wasn't excellent sounding either. JMS Audioware - http://www.jms-audioware.com - Brainspawn - http://www.brainspawn.com & Anwida - http://www.anwida.com - have all made some great 3rd party stuff.

But if you are choosing between VST & DX -
in general it is best to choose VST because they can be more easily installed (just copy the plugin's dll file to the VST_Plugins folder found inside your SAWStudio folder) and uninstaslled (just remove the dll from the VST_Plugins folder) than DX plugins (which install registry hooks and need a 3rd party utility such as the ones available from http://www.analogx.com or V. Burel in order to be easily changed) - and once in a while VST plugins are a little bit more cpu efficient than their DX counterparts.

The exceptions to this general guideline are the UAD-1 DSP plugins - for which the DX versions offer automatic latency compensation in SAW - and things like the Waves plugins whose VST versions are just wrappers around their DX plugins.

Plugins do not add latency to the processing path unless they have a fixed latency - such as the SIR VST convolution plugin which operates on a fixed latency of 8960 samples - or DSP plugins such as the ones in TC Powercore, Mixtreme or Creamware cards - whose latency is dependent on the amount of buffers you have set up with your audio device.
To compensate for these rare cases you can use the freeware Latency Compensator plugin from JMS Audioware - you just load a single instance of this plugin in the input or aux track you have the plugin with fixed latency loaded in and then enter the amount of samples you wish to compensate by.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Perry]

In general it is best to use SAW Native plugins! :) - they are easily fully
automateable and are amazingly cpu efficient - not to mention I haven't heard one that wasn't excellent sounding either. JMS Audioware - http://www.jms-audioware.com - Brainspawn - http://www.brainspawn.com & Anwida - http://www.anwida.com - have all made some great 3rd party stuff.

But if you are choosing between VST & DX -
in general it is best to choose VST because they can be more easily installed (just copy the plugin's dll file to the VST_Plugins folder found inside your SAWStudio folder) and uninstaslled (just remove the dll from the VST_Plugins folder) than DX plugins (which install registry hooks and need a 3rd party utility such as the ones available from http://www.analogx.com or V. Burel in order to be easily changed) - and once in a while VST plugins are a little bit more cpu efficient than their DX counterparts.

The exceptions to this general guideline are the UAD-1 DSP plugins - for which the DX versions offer automatic latency compensation in SAW - and things like the Waves plugins whose VST versions are just wrappers around their DX plugins.

Plugins do not add latency to the processing path unless they have a fixed latency - such as the SIR VST convolution plugin which operates on a fixed latency of 8960 samples - or DSP plugins such as the ones in TC Powercore, Mixtreme or Creamware cards - whose latency is dependent on the amount of buffers you have set up with your audio device.
To compensate for these rare cases you can use the freeware Latency Compensator plugin from JMS Audioware - you just load a single instance of this plugin in the input or aux track you have the plugin with fixed latency loaded in and then enter the amount of samples you wish to compensate by.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Hi Steve,

Ummmm.. in the case of the Mixtreme.. I didn't think those were dependent on the buffer settings.. at least not the one's in SAWStudio???

I had done tests here just a short while ago and best as I remember this wasn't the case. The latency was in fact very, very small... almost non-existent.. or have my marbles fell out on the floor and "They've rolled behind the fridge where I can't get at them?" ;)

Very trivial Triva Quiz... what movie did that line come from and who stared in it? :eek:

Best,

Perry

[TotalSonic]

Ummmm.. in the case of the Mixtreme.. I didn't think those were dependent on the buffer settings.. at least not the one's in SAWStudio???

I had done tests here just a short while ago and best as I remember this wasn't the case. The latency was in fact very, very small... almost non-existent..

Perry -
No - I might be incorrect regarding Mixtreme plugs because I haven't tested these out for quite some time now - maybe it's changed since that time. I demoed a few of the Mixtreme DSP plugins a while back (i.e. even before Mackie took over from Soundscape) but never hopped on board because between price and what was to me lack of convenience in work flow as compared to SAW Native/DX/VST plugs they just didn't seem that compelling to me. I'll have to run some tests again when I find time. Not enough hours in the day these days! My apologies to all readers for making this statement without recent tests to back it up - but I am now curious to see whether the Sydec Mixtreme Mixer version 4.1 and a faster computer has changed any of this.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Perry]

Perry -
No - I might be incorrect regarding Mixtreme plugs because I haven't tested these out for quite some time now - maybe it's changed since that time. I demoed a few of the Mixtreme DSP plugins a while back (i.e. even before Mackie took over from Soundscape) but never hopped on board because between price and what was to me lack of convenience in work flow as compared to SAW Native/DX/VST plugs they just didn't seem that compelling to me. I'll have to run some tests again when I find time. Not enough hours in the day these days! My apologies to all readers for making this statement without recent tests to back it up - but I am now curious to see whether the Sydec Mixtreme Mixer version 4.1 and a faster computer has changed any of this.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Hi Steve,

I would have to test this again myself for exact figures... but for sure I know that whatever latency may be present is extremely small. For my purposes I find it to be a non-issue. Even the vst plug-ins utilizated in the new software have very low latency. And now there is VSTi support as well.

Yeah.. understandable... The price for some of the Mixtreme plug-ins *is* high... but in some regards I find it justified given the usefulness (to me at least) and the "real-time" comparison to actual hardware units.

Of course... a cheap reverb unit for just monitoring is... well... cheap... But, I find having these in the soundcard mixer to be more useful and more versatile.

I know that you know a lot of this already.. but... Even if you are doing everything "in the box" within SAWStudio (a great way to work of course), I like that the Mixtreme plug-ins are in fact "real-time". They behave just as if they are hardware units. This means you can record through as many of them as you like (up to the limits of the DSP). OR... and I find this *very* useful... you can monitor one of the reverbs.. the TC Reverb or the Wave Mechanics reverb.... or other fx.... while tracking, without the need for an external hardware mixer and reverb/fx unit.

These behave like hardware units even to the fact that if you stop playback/record, the reverb tails ring out. I like that feature quite a lot myself.

Also, I sometimes run into situations where gtr players will ask me to give them a little chorus, or DDL (and maybe reverb as well) while tracking or overdubing. With the Mixtreme's that can easily be done, and you can decide whether you want to track the effects or just monitor them. And then you can save the Mixtreme mixer along with your EDL for instant recall of recording/mixing set-up.

With some outboard Mic Pre-Amps, one or two Mixtreme cards, and something like the new Presonus "Central Station" it's possible to set up quite an extensive monitoring/recording situation without using a "real" hardware mixer.

And now with the new software, you can essentially do the same thing with vst plug-ins ....... (some restrictions apply) ;)

You can use a VST fx/reverb in "real-time" more or less the same as the native Mixtreme plug-ins. You could (for example) use the free ANWIDA reverb for monitoring purposes while tracking. I did something similar recently when doing a gtr overdub and the guy wanted to monitor with a bit of tremelo... popped a vst plug-in into the Mixtreme and used it just for monitoring purposes.

Anyway... ummm... try the demos Steve and I'd be interested in hearing what you think about this... if you find any more time in the day that is ;) I do know what you mean about that! :D

All the best,

Perry

[Burkeville]

I have to say that since I got a mixtreme card I have gotten rid of almost all my hardware. It can compress,eq, verb,ddl going INTO the recorder(SAWSTUDIO).

It's a very slick system. All in realtime. Without taxing your cpu.

I find this great for setting up headphone mixes and I have never noticed latency.

[AudioAstronomer]

I have to say that since I got a mixtreme card I have gotten rid of almost all my hardware. It can compress,eq, verb,ddl going INTO the recorder(SAWSTUDIO).

It's a very slick system. All in realtime. Without taxing your cpu.

I find this great for setting up headphone mixes and I have never noticed latency.

In case you didnt know (I assume you do, butIll say anyways), you can use any VST/DX plugin on the way into SAWStudio natively. Simply assign the channel a device input in the i/o section, set to record from that channel (not a device). Place your effects pre and they will be applied on the way into saw. I use this allll the time. Commiting to a sound absolutely great imho :) Once it's rockin theres no need to change it!

[Leadfoot]

In case you didnt know (I assume you do, butIll say anyways), you can use any VST/DX plugin on the way into SAWStudio natively. Simply assign the channel a device input in the i/o section, set to record from that channel (not a device). Place your effects pre and they will be applied on the way into saw. I use this allll the time. Commiting to a sound absolutely great imho :) Once it's rockin theres no need to change it!


Can you elaborate on that.. I'm a little slow at the moment.
I want to make sure I'm not doing that by accident and not realizing it.
Thanks,
Tony