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AudioAstronomer
03-25-2008, 02:48 PM
Here's what I've tried in SAC and the average workable latencies. Main systems are a 3.6ghz p4 on p4p800 w/4gb, and new macbook pro core 2 duo 2.6ghz, 4gb ram and bootcamp 2.0

ASIO unless otherwise noted. 24/48khz

*Alesis io26 2x256
Edirol ua-1000 1x128
Motu Fast Track (usb, pro and ultra have all be tried) 3x128
Motu 896 (not HD) 2x128
RME fireface 1x64, prefer 2x64. 1x128 at 96khz
MOTU Traveller 1x64, 1x128 at 96khz
Motu Ultralight 3x128
M-Audio lightbridge 3x64
Macbook pro ASIO4all 2x256
Presonus Firestudio 1x512


*I've had some minor issues with BSOD with the alesis drivers. I would avoid that interface currently.


The best working interfaces, in my experience, are in bold.

Feel free to post your experiences as well :)

mako
03-26-2008, 03:00 PM
Gigabyte K8NNXP AMD3200 1Gig ram

RME PCI - Digiface - ADA8000
Works at 64x2 but slips buffers - sometimes bad enough to cause a delay effect of around 600ms.

RME 9632 - works well @ 64x2 but slips over time (20 mins).

LynxOne - rock solid @ 64x2

I hope to get back to the RME stuff today for more testing.

mako

bcorkery
03-26-2008, 09:45 PM
LynxOne - rock solid @ 64x2Wow! This is the 2nd mention I've read of LynxOne getting this low. I've never trusted mine to get too low in SAW. Great news!

DaveS
03-27-2008, 12:22 PM
Here's what I've tried in SAC and the average workable latencies. Main systems are a 3.6ghz p4 on p4p800 w/4gb, and new macbook pro core 2 duo 2.6ghz, 4gb ram and bootcamp 2.0

ASIO unless otherwise noted. 24/48khz


MOTU Traveller 1x64, 1x128 at 96khz


The best working interfaces, in my experience, are in bold.

:)

Robert - regarding the Traveler - was it tested on the PC or the Macbook? If on the PC - which version driver did you use?


Thanks!

Dave
Recordable Media Services

Mountain Media
03-27-2008, 01:51 PM
ASUS B533-E Mobo, Intel 2.6MHz P4, 1Gb RAM, XP Home Edition W/SP1 (old system)

RME DIGI 9652 as Inputs (ADAT x3)

LynxONE as Output (Analog x2)

Using Std MM Dvr

Using Alesis HD24 for Input Device W/2Hrs of 22-Tracks Previously Recorded Live Concert

24-Input Tracks being fed from HD24 (2-Null Input)
All 24 SAC Inputs set with EQ and Comp on each channel (just for testing)

(I'm feeding analog out from HD24 to External Mixer, mixed to 2-track fed into a small mixer feeding Monitors. Two other channels of small mixer feeds Monitors with 2-track from LynxONE - (used to check for slip between HD24 output and SAC output)

Two hours runs without any aural glitching or buffer re-syncs/drops at 2x64
W/less than 26-27% CPU load

Two hours runs w/out glitching or drops at 4x32 at about 48-50% CPU load

Buffers at 1x64, occasional aural glitches (didn't run long enough to check buffer drops)

Sure impresses me, considering a 5-6 Year old system!:D

I know this wasn't the setup that had meter issues, but all 22 meters seem to keeping perfect sync with audio

Oh, yeah - SAC Pre-1a

Edit Update: 3x32 buffers seems fine without scene swaps - scene swapping intermittently glitches audio at 3x32. Fast Scene swapping does NOT glitch audio at 2x64 or 4x32.

AudioAstronomer
03-27-2008, 03:02 PM
Robert - regarding the Traveler - was it tested on the PC or the Macbook? If on the PC - which version driver did you use?


Thanks!

Dave
Recordable Media Services

Both.

I use a firewire pci card with a texas instruments 1394 chipset now, and it greatly improved all my firewire interfaces.

Right now I'm deciding on what to use live once we get SAC rolling, and I'm leaning towards the traveller.

Bob L
03-27-2008, 03:18 PM
That's great John... you might want to try ASIO and see if that corrects for the glitches with the F-Key view switching.

Also... try the Realtime priority option... that may make a difference also.

Bob L

Mountain Media
03-27-2008, 04:36 PM
That's great John... you might want to try ASIO and see if that corrects for the glitches with the F-Key view switching.

Also... try the Realtime priority option... that may make a difference also.

Bob L

Yeah, I've already set Realtime Priority since posting results and it reduces glitching, but not completely gone. I was trying ASIO, but haven't gotten it setup for RME input and LynxONE output yet. I see input/output on meters, but don't hear nuthin'. It's been a while since I've used RME inputs, 'cause I usually direct copy HD24 files to HD on SAWStudio, so I just gotta take a few minutes and play with ASIO setup.

I did find, based on response of Solo'ing a channel, at 1x64 the posted setup is off by about 1-2 seconds after about 30 minutes. No problems at 2x64.

And though I'm not using the path through a mic/pre-amp/A-D as I would if I were a vocalist listening through headphones, I don't hear any latency at 2x64.

Bob L
03-27-2008, 04:53 PM
There is no question that if the buffers are set too low, you will get drift because each time a buffer is glitched a blank buffer gets inserted by the driver.

I am actually searching for a way to detect this, but since the system does not report an error or anything out of the ordinary, I have yet to be able to detect when it happens... I am working on a concept though to detect and self correct for glitched buffers... at least as far as the drift is concerned... obviously I can't fix the gitched buffer... but it would be nice to be able to absorb back the extra buffer latency added in to keep the whole system running in sync forever... regardless.

Bob L

Mountain Media
03-27-2008, 05:02 PM
There is no question that if the buffers are set too low, you will get drift because each time a buffer is glitched a blank buffer gets inserted by the driver.

I am actually searching for a way to detect this, but since the system does not report an error or anything out of the ordinary, I have yet to be able to detect when it happens... I am working on a concept though to detect and self correct for glitched buffers... at least as far as the drift is concerned... obviously I can't fix the gitched buffer... but it would be nice to be able to absorb back the extra buffer latency added in to keep the whole system running in sync forever... regardless.

Bob L

Great thoughts, Bob. Especially at these low buffer settings, an audience would probably seldom hear a dropped buffer, or the glitches, which will happen anyway, but to know they will stay in sync would be awsome!!

Craig Allen
03-27-2008, 05:56 PM
There is no question that if the buffers are set too low, you will get drift because each time a buffer is glitched a blank buffer gets inserted by the driver.

I am actually searching for a way to detect this, but since the system does not report an error or anything out of the ordinary, I have yet to be able to detect when it happens... I am working on a concept though to detect and self correct for glitched buffers... at least as far as the drift is concerned... obviously I can't fix the gitched buffer... but it would be nice to be able to absorb back the extra buffer latency added in to keep the whole system running in sync forever... regardless.

Bob L
That would definately be a breakthrough. My biggest fear is that buffers will get dropped and the audio will get 'behind'. I had that happen with Saw once or twice when using it to mix live.

One thought on that, would it be posible to cycle the engine every once in a while. Maybe do it super-quick (a sample or two) so it wouldn't be noticed? Because starting and stopping SAW fixed the problem back when I had it.

Bob L
03-27-2008, 06:25 PM
Well... I am going to create a reset command for the next update that will cycle the engine as fast as possible manually... that will have to suffice until I can come up with a reliable way to detect when it needs to be corrected automatically.

Bob L

Leadfoot
03-27-2008, 08:41 PM
the 0.1a seems perfectly stable on my machine now. meters and audio are instant and solid at 2x64. i even had it running at 2x32 and it seemed fine.
it may have drifted ever so slightly at 32 over time, but a quick stop and restart of the engine fixes that. i'm quite impressed, no pops when hitting buttons like solo, mutes, even changing in and out assigns, totally clean.
the system/audio overall is amazingly clear, i would love to use it at the gig i'm doing tomorrow night, i just haven't had time to get myself set up properly yet. very soon though, got a lot of shows lined up. thanks again bob!

tony

p4/1gb-ram/xpsp2/matrox-g450
2x ada8000
rme hdsp9652/asio driver 3.057

Bob L
03-27-2008, 09:33 PM
Good news.

Thanks,

Bob L

AudioAstronomer
04-04-2008, 07:08 AM
Updated some of my experience.

mako
04-18-2008, 02:16 PM
I'm now using a dual core during rehearsals and find it does slip a little over time (Asus P5K Pro, C2D 6300 with RME Digiface/PCI) but overall is clean and rock solid at 32x2.
1 vocal channel (EQ, Comp) 1 guitar channel, 1 backing channel = 0% load :)

Updated info - Yesterday I added my RME 9632 to the mix (previously, in my 64 Athlon, they didn't work well together, the PCI/Digiface suffered badly) now it runs just as well as stated above - I'm very pleased.

Asus P5K Pro / XP Pro
C2D 6300
RME Digiface/PCI -ADA8000
2gig memory
ASIO 32x2

Great fun

mako

Bob L
04-18-2008, 05:51 PM
Read my thread about the dual cpu issues... the slippage can be contained now... I am working on a permanent fix.

Bob L

mako
04-20-2008, 02:31 PM
Thanks Bob - all the best.

mako

Iain Westland
04-20-2008, 04:07 PM
bit dissapointed!!!

i have two 9632 cards and decided to try and push them...

opened 72 inpots (mono) added the console eq with high and low filters on, plus gate and compressor on all channels. opened all the auxes on each channel (thats all 72 - did i mention that before)

47% load

ok, do all of that on the monitors then

monitor 1 - yep

monitor 2 - yep

bugger it, add 20 instances of the eq to the first 20 foh chanels

1 buffer 64 samples, running 2 hours 98% MT!!!

should it not have crashed before i managed to get this far? thats a bit too stable aint it mate? come on:D:D:D:D

something did catch me out though ... the mutes, solos and key listen are global, solo'd out a feed when playing with my headphones on monitor 1 and nearly blew my monitors ... that could be an expensive mistake fo somebody to make

Bob L
04-20-2008, 04:13 PM
I'm glad you are seeing the performance possibilities... wait till this new engine that will properly utilize the dual cpus.

There is a PRE SOLO bus level trim... or use the Pst Solo bus option... in fact there will soon be a popup fader for each solo console section that you can adjust on the fly.

Features are all lined up... but the engine stability and dual cpu issues are first in line so everyone can start using it in real life setups without being afraid of slipping or crashing and burning the show. :)

Bob L

Iain Westland
04-20-2008, 04:34 PM
I'm glad you are seeing the performance possibilities... wait till this new engine that will properly utilize the dual cpus.

i will stick with the single one untill its all sorted, then i will jump on that buss


There is a PRE SOLO bus level trim... or use the Pst Solo bus option... in fact there will soon be a popup fader for each solo console section that you can adjust on the fly.

i was on monitor mixer 1, pressed solo and it came out the foh mixer, so it looks like the solo is connected to the foh mixer and even the pst fadder option would not have fixed the monitor boom. i quite often piggy back the headphone feeds to hear exactly what the musos are hearing, and solo/mute for quick adjustments, looks like i will have to change my habits, and the gate/comp key also did this


Features are all lined up... but the engine stability and dual cpu issues are first in line so everyone can start using it in real life setups without being afraid of slipping or crashing and burning the show. :)

Bob L

balls in your court sir, and a damn fine player you are too

Bob L
04-20-2008, 05:19 PM
No... the solo bus is assignable... it is defaulted to device 1... use the mixer menu solo mode option and assign it to one of your out devices at the end of your soundcard... thne patch that into a headphone or monitor amp... it will no longer interrupt the FOH... that is the way you would use it in the studio... solo interrupts the control room... for live... assign it to an unused device.

Bob L

Iain Westland
04-23-2008, 12:43 AM
im in the mt on the dynamics section so it shows on the z mixer in detail. now i want to move to the fadders on another chanel, press the faffer and i jump chanel but remain in the dynamics area. will it be possible to get it to chase to the fadders?

Bob L
04-23-2008, 07:09 AM
You can set another F-Key view to snap down to the faders... and another to snap up to the eq... etc... or you can always snap down to the faders by clicking in the F Mixer just under the mute switch... or use the Ctrl PgDn key in the Z mixer... if you look in the helpfile, you will find many ways to navigate and get to anywhere very quickly.

If you also get comfortable using the double-click F Mixer chan to popup the E Mixer right under your cursor, you can open anywhere along the chan strip by clicking the colored icon zones and the big label area will get you to the fader... very fast way to get to any control detail.

Also... create a view uisng the Wide Mixer and simply jump anywhere you want and see all controls at the same time, all the time.

Bob L

Iain Westland
04-23-2008, 01:52 PM
if i have a chanel selected in the mt ( black number at the top of the mixer) i cant drag the z mixer to make more of them apear

Bob L
04-23-2008, 02:15 PM
I am confused... we are talking SAC here... yet you are saying MT, meaning MultiTrack... there is no SAC MT.

You can select mixer channels in any of the mixer views and continue selecting by dragging the cursor in the number selection area.

Bob L

Iain Westland
04-23-2008, 03:00 PM
sorry, full mixer, and i meant that i cant make more than one z mixer appear by draging the edge with the mouse when theres channels selected (the black box bit)

also would it be possible to make the fadders move quickly from the bottom to where it gets quick then go slow? most of my live work would be arround the '0' mark so i would like slower movement here, but quicker to get it up to this point

Bob L
04-23-2008, 03:38 PM
You can still expand the Z Mixer even when channels have been selected, but the cursor shape has been overidden by the Chan Select Cursor... letting you know you have gfrouped channels.... although... again I say... why would you need to do that anyway... USE F-KEYS... stop resisting.... create F-Key views and you can get anywhere instantly....

And Yes... you can adjust the fader taper... in fact you can customize it... read the Helpfile Menu Reference section on the Mixer Menu Chan Fader Taper option.

Bob L

Iain Westland
04-24-2008, 12:43 AM
You can still expand the Z Mixer even when channels have been selected, but the cursor shape has been overidden by the Chan Select Cursor... letting you know you have gfrouped channels.... although... again I say... why would you need to do that anyway... USE F-KEYS... stop resisting.... create F-Key views and you can get anywhere instantly....

its not resistance, its out of the box useability, its what new people would expect it to do, then go on to use your enhancements to make it perfect for themselves


And Yes... you can adjust the fader taper... in fact you can customize it... read the Helpfile Menu Reference section on the Mixer Menu Chan Fader Taper option.

Bob L

again, i refer you to the above, i know you have given umpteen user selectable enhancements, but the new guy, straight out of the box, will get cought out raising fadders if they suddenly double in speed in the sweet spot.

DominicPerry
04-24-2008, 03:04 AM
Hey Iain, stop worrying about new users. You're not one, and you don't have to justify your choice of DAW or of SAC to anyone, if they don't like it, too bad. It's up to Bob if he wants to make his product appeal to new users more or less than it does now. Just be happy with your choice. This is the path you have chosen, you already know the world is swimming with Cubase and ProTools users. Just relax and make the most of what you have chosen, it will always be different from the mainstream.

Dominic

Bob L
04-24-2008, 07:48 AM
Ian... nothing like SAC exists... its a new paradigm for audio.... anyopne jumping in will have a lot to learn about... and its very worth leaning about, in my opinion... if they don't want to read a bit and learn about how it all works... and then practice new methods of getting an old job done in a new way.... then it really may not be the tool for them.

There is no intuitive involved here... there is nothing out there that already establishes the basics... SAC establishes the basics...

I suggest you stop worrying about new users and the success of SAC based on standards... SAC is establishing new standards... all that should be important is that you learn how to make it fly and be excited about using it... in the end... the success will depend on people coming to SAC with an open mind and a desire to explore new territory... and there will be many rewards in store for those that jump in.

Right at the moment, worrying about every keystroke and mouse click is not my highest priority... getting the engine solid and stable so it does not crash and burn during a live show is my primary focus.

There are many feature ideas that I can guarentee you or many others have not even thought about that are already on the todo list, that have been worked out over the many years of thinking about this product by myself and many excellent pro live sound engineers... these features will be showing up in the code shortly... believe me... they will give you all plenty to be excited about.

Other good ideas will come from this forum, along the way... but the concern for 10 different methods to scroll or subtract one mouse click are not very high on the priority list at the moment and will most likely not meet with great enthusiasm... I hardly feel that will have anything to do with new users jumping on board or not... there are many other reasons why SAC should attract new users and I hardly think it has to do with whether they intuitively know how to adjust the fader taper without having to read about it... in fact, where else can you adjust the fader taper on another peice of equipment and is it really something I would know how to do without reading the manual?

SAC is an exciting new journey... join me in the excitement of that new journey... and leave the worry about other new users behind. :)

Those that are good candidates for this new journey will certainly find their way to us and the SAC word will spread far and wide.... fast!

Bob L

Iain Westland
04-24-2008, 03:41 PM
well i dissagree about the intuitive, its an audio program so people will expect it to work certain ways.

but i will leave this stuff to you, its your baby, im just glad to be a passanger. i still think the auto mute headphone chase channel is a good idea though :D

thanks Bob, i will stop mithering you now

Warren
04-24-2008, 04:26 PM
well i dissagree about the intuitive, its an audio program so people will expect it to work certain ways.

but i will leave this stuff to you, its your baby, im just glad to be a passanger. i still think the auto mute headphone chase channel is a good idea though :D

thanks Bob, i will stop mithering you now


Feel like you went skeet shooting, and you were the skeet?:D

Iain Westland
04-24-2008, 04:42 PM
just glad Bob uses salt pelletts:D 41 and i still get told off:):)

Warren
04-24-2008, 04:48 PM
just glad Bob uses salt pelletts:D 41 and i still get told off:):)

That Salt can hurt like the dickens as well! :eek:

Bob L
04-24-2008, 05:50 PM
Just think what it feels like from this end... with everyone shooting at the same time in my direction. :)

Bob L

Iain Westland
04-25-2008, 12:48 AM
i know what you mean Bob, and i appreciate all your doing, but im not shooting, im sugesting. if theres a good reason not to have something ( afayk it would increase cpu 25% to implement say) then we would all stand corrected happily. a lot of our ideas are improvements in our mind, from our ideas of useage. im very happy your sorting out the dual cpu thing, and i havent got one, but i also know you keep a list of things to do, we put forward ideas for that list, not for the next release.

your a hippy Bob, you want to make the best product available for the least cost, thats my perception, its also my ethos and why i am here. my studio would run fine under cubase sx3, but they dont make me feel as at home as you do!!

as i said, you carry on Bob, its important that you get this all sorted to your sattisfaction, i just wanted a ride, and your one hell of a driver

Iain:):):D

Oz Nimbus
08-31-2008, 01:31 PM
*bump*

Hey Bob, maybe you should sticky this thread. Tons of useful information here.

-0z-

rdubost
11-22-2008, 07:27 PM
Robert,

I could not resist quoting this thread on an (amazing) Alesis IO26 review (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?p=31322132#post31322132).

Since the Alesis support follows this thread, that might lead them to give a closer look to their drivers, in the performance arena.

I felt that the IO26 users needed to hear about saw basic too, since both products offer incredible value : Robert R., you might be the cause of a sudden peak in the demo downloads, maybe more :)

And Bob, you don't hear a lot about us not shooting at you. But we are still there and alive ;p