New function

[Makar]

Dear Bob Lentini,
I'm looking through demo version 4.1
Very interesting program, there's no similar ones. :)
I've got a question.
As far as I understand, I can insert only one file into track with the help of the function "Open Sound File And Add to MT".
Sometimes I get projects with 20-30 tracks which all start at the same bar.
It will be very useful to add the function "Open SoundFiles And Add each to new Track" or upgrade the standard function.
But now I have to open each of 20 files individually. And with the help of that new function I'd just have to choose the files I need, pres OK and go to
drink coffe. :D

[PieterS]

use the library view and then under File select Open Directory Of Audio Files. After selecting the directory you can insert files on the current hottrack or insert each of them on a separate track.

[AudioAstronomer]

Open the library window, import your files or directory to the library window (from file menu)

Then use the "add selected to multitrack" (from the file menu) to add the selected files to the multitrack.

You can easily select all entries in the library window by hitting ctrl-a, or hold shift and selecting first and last entries. If you hold the control key, you can individually select specific tracks to add.

More information starting on page 115 in the manual at http://sawstudio.com/downloads_manuals.htm


(btw, you'll barely have time to take a sip of your coffee ;))

[Makar]

UOU!
Thank you! It works!

One more question.

How can I see the Grid in MT window.
I can switch "Snap-To-Grid", can adjust it, but can't se the grid itself.
Is there a command "show grid"? :confused:

[Craig Allen]

No, there's not a command to show the grid in the multitrack window itself, but you can look at the markers in the time line and see where it is.

[Bob L]

There is usually so much info displayed in the MT window that I decided to keep it as clean as possible... displaying grid lines gets too messy, in my opinion, especially as you zoom in and out...

I have never found a need to display the grid... as long as things snap to it, seemed all that was important.

Bob L

[AudioAstronomer]

There is usually so much info displayed in the MT window that I decided to keep it as clean as possible... displaying grid lines gets too messy, in my opinion, especially as you zoom in and out...

I have never found a need to display the grid... as long as things snap to it, seemed all that was important.

Bob L

Something I've not thought about before...


But what about per-track grid lines that you could turn on with the alt-right click menu? (multiple track selections would apply across the selection)

And the grid lines would only be displayed at a minimum interval of X pixels (10?20?) to the nearest grid resolution.

Translucent grid lines would help too, but maybe too inefficient? Maybe inverse of the colour of the track/waveform?


Just an idea :) I've always been a big proponent of grid lines, but I get along ok without them.

[Makar]

Dear Bob,
Its right that you don't really need a grid for life recordings.
But when working with electronic projects with drum samples it's inevitable.
Grid is very important in Tempo Mode if you need to work with samples or edit drums. It's very difficult and inaccurate to measure everything with the time line which is in the bottom of the window.
It's a pity that there's no such option. In all other programs grid is visible.
As for the information displayed in MT window, there's no problem, as the number of the visible lines of the grid will depend on the zoom like it's with
the time line. When zoom out you'll see only first beats of the bars, when zoom in you'll see more and more little parts of each bar.

It's an approximate appearance of the grid with 1/8th note quantize.
First beats of the bars and Half Notes are highlighted with the different color.
http://kimsansan.mail333.com/flashcard/sawgrid.gif

[Craig Allen]

I've always gotten by without them and have done electronic style music with sample loops going, but I have to admit, a grid display of some sort would be handy.

[Richard Rupert]

Also remember that the timeline cursor on the multi track will snap to the grid when "grid mode" is active. You can then see where each region should be aligned as you progress down the time line.

[Makar]

This all is great but there are situations when start of file doesn't coinside with the pick of waveform on which the file should be moved on track.
In this case it is necessary to see the grid and snap to grid is just not needed.
Anyway possibility of showing or hiding the grid is a big versatility of the programm.

More correct version
http://kimsansan.mail333.com/flashcard/sawgrid2.gif

[Bob L]

The solution there is to just cut the region boundary to the waveform start, then snap to grid... again... you do not need to see the grid.

Bob L

[lofi studios]

just 'page up' till your filling the screen then use the time line to snap to then shrink again or return to your f key setting.

[Makar]

"The solution there is to just cut the region boundary to the waveform start, then snap to grid... again... you do not need to see the grid."

And I must keep watch in order to select end moving two regions instead one...

[TotalSonic]

Dear Bob,
Its right that you don't really need a grid for life recordings.
But when working with electronic projects with drum samples it's inevitable.
Grid is very important in Tempo Mode if you need to work with samples or edit drums. It's very difficult and inaccurate to measure everything with the time line which is in the bottom of the window.
It's a pity that there's no such option. In all other programs grid is visible.
As for the information displayed in MT window, there's no problem, as the number of the visible lines of the grid will depend on the zoom like it's with
the time line. When zoom out you'll see only first beats of the bars, when zoom in you'll see more and more little parts of each bar.

It's an approximate appearance of the grid with 1/8th note quantize.
First beats of the bars and Half Notes are highlighted with the different color.
http://kimsansan.mail333.com/flashcard/sawgrid.gif

I have to agree that for when working with electronic based dance musics that having a visible grid can sometimes be a helpful visual aid. I think an option to have this turned on and off on the Multitrack View (in the same way that wav viewing can be turned on an off with a single button push or key command) would make a nice future feature enhancement for many users working in these genres.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[lofi studios]

Lost me there mate. i assumed you wanted to align the start of something to a grid. cant follow your logic

[TotalSonic]

Lost me there mate. i assumed you wanted to align the start of something to a grid. cant follow your logic

Sometimes it's nice just to see what elements of a loop file are on or off from the beat through a visual reference. Makes the ubiquitous chopping and reassembling of loop elements quicker to do. This is not something I ever need except when I do occasional beat production for a couple of clients (which I used to do a bit more of years ago). If you're never working in hip-hop / house / trance / etc. etc. I can see why visual grids are not of use. As soon as you start working these genres having it as an available option can actually speed up production time in my experience.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[lofi studios]

ha ha, now i see, and sometimes i need grid (double kicks in metal, quick view for how out of time they are) so it gets my vote.

[TotalSonic]

I'm confused also . I've recently been working with midi and loops mixed with real time performances (on a project I'm trying to develop) and have been sniffing around different systems.

I need a grid because I suck as a performer, and keyboard parts come very slowly.

I can find the grid options in SS, but can't figure out how to see the grid. What am I missing?

mark

Mark - you're not missing anything - I was stating as a feature request for a future update the ability to toggle on visibilty for the Grid in the Multitrack View.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[lofi studios]

Oh Mark, do you mean to say you didn't know that? tut tut sir.;) it is something i would occasionally find very very helpfull, but a hindrence at other times, so a toggle would be nice

[lofi studios]

noraclue, midi confuses me!!

[ambler]

I assume there is a visible grid in MWS?


Yes, there is.

[sebastiandybing]

Hi Makar

Lets say you have a region you want to move and snap to grid,
I offten use "select" mode hit "s" on the keybord and then select 1 or many regions, now you can snap the regios to grid points by using arrow keys,
its also possible to save selected files as select groups for recall.

There are many options for moving files around to the grid, and use the
timeline window witch always tell what messure, beat and so on you are.

Sebastian

[Makar]

Dear Sebastian.
Yes, it’s a very convenient possibility. But I meant another thing. It’s not always needed to snap region to grid in its beginning. Point of snap may be in the middle of region. Splitting region into two regions is not convenient as it will demand more attention to further editing. It would be perfect having a marker in every region which could be in beginning of the region by default but could be moved to any point of the region. Snap to grid would be under this marker. Showing and hiding of markers could be made together with the grid. :)
In general having a grid makes work more visual.

[Bob L]

You can snap to offsets within regions... and having a visible grid would not help that either... there are many editing features that are handled differently in the SAW environment and I feel that many of them negate the need for certaijn other features that you do require to get things done in other apps... but that is my opinion...

My suggestion is that before you get stuck on something missing... learn about all the ways this may be handled in SAW before thinking there is a problem. :)

You can easily set an offset point within the middle of a region and use that with many commands as the snap point.

And my earlier suggestion was not to split the region but simply adjust the start boundary up to the waveform point you want to reference... then use all the powerful key or mouse snap commands, then, if needed, simply stretch the start boundary back where you originally had it... this is very easy to do in SAW and a very powerful way to work efficiently as well.

You will also note the attention to detail in the design when sliding regions... you can place the cursor at any point within the region and you will get a vertical boundary line at the beg and end points as well as where your cursor is when you grab... this allows you to instantly line things up visually to other waveforms or other reference points on the timeline... again with no need to clutter the display area with all kinds of vertical grid lines.

Just something to consider. :)

Bob L

[Makar]

Dear Bob

I've read the "USING OFFSET FEATURES" section of the manual.
I've understood how to set the Offset point, but it's not visible in region.
I can snap the beginning or ending of the region to the grid, but I can't understand how to snap the region to grid with the offset point.
If the offset point was visible and I could snap it to grid it would be really great. :)
http://kimsansan.mail333.com/flashcard/saw_region_offset.gif

[Bob L]

Place your cursor at the offset within the region... press the B key to mark that position as a begin point and then alt-right-click the region to get the region properties menu... set the offset point to that mark beg position.

Now that its set you can easily control how that region snaps to any other cursor position, which of course can be set against another tracks waveform, or on any grid point or in between grid points... again... once you know how it works... there is no need to clutter the screen with visble grid lines...

Use select mode and then place your cursor... then the Backspace key will snap the region front to the cursor... the Shift-Backspace will snap the region back to the cursor and the Alt-Backspace will snap the region offset to the cursor... as well as carry along any other selected regions in the group... and you can even to do this from a seleceted region somewhere in the middle of the group... making that one the key entry... it all gets very powerful and very flexible... you just have to get into the different concept of the design from what you may be used to... why bother... because in the end... there is much more efficiency in the editing procedure with much more flexibility in the many different ways you can approach an editing issue.

At least, in my opinion. :)

Bob L

[Makar]

Dear Bob
I finally understood how this function works…Firstly I should place the cursor to the place I need and then snap offset point to it with Alt+Backspace function. Placing cursor on an offset position is impossible... Surely it may be so...
But imagine such situation: I work on a project, edit, make offsets and snap to grid somewhere and somewhere not etc. Then I postpone the work and returne to the project in 2 months. What will I see on opening? How will I recall which of the regions have offset positions and where? Should I click Alt+Right on every region? :( Yes I will see that the offset is set but value in samples won’t show where exactly. To check this one should place cursor to a correct place, select a region, push Alt+Backspace, at that a region will move... or not… Is that so? Is that usable?
The same with the grid. To find out number of beats I need to listen to the fragment or click, click and click the cursor to it. With a grid it’s all seen straight away.
I would prefer pushing one button and seeing all without extra moves.
Frankly speaking showing markers and grid is more necessary than the W button of waveform viewing.

However all this is my humble opinion. I guess you get my idea but surely at your discretion… :)

[TotalSonic]

Bob -
I'm willing to make a strong bet that you never work with loop/beat oriented genres such as hip-hop - because I have a feeling if you did I think you would see the value of having an option to occasionally make a tempo grid visible. For me this desire usually has nothing whatsoever to do with wanting to actually snap elements to the grid - but merely to have a visual reference when chopping and manually moving parts of a sound file around - sometimes which you actually want to be offset from the grid in a specific way in order to retain a "feel" - others which you wish to snap to the grid (which is currently easy to do in SAW) - and some which you simply want to see whether the transient in question is ahead, on or behind the beat, so that you can make a quicker decision as to where you might want to move it to.

I think I'm one of the strongest proponents of using ears and not visual references when tracking & mixing - but for the loop/beat oriented genres I've got to say that having this option in my direct experience does in fact allow faster workflow towards getting results that are satisfying to the client. I have a feeling there are many other users that would agree with this statement and would greet the feature enhancement of an option to make the tempo grid visible (with either a button push or key command) with great appreciation. I know I would!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Bob L]

Well... when I do hip hop type stuff I am usually doing it in midi, because I have the freedom to mess with tempos and things without degrading the sound...

And... I can see bars and beats in the MWS very easily... I can see the notes referenced on the beat or off the beat... and I can set the grid to snap to very small notes like 32nd notes without the need to fill my screen with lines all over the place at 32nd note intervals... but that is just my opinion.

I certainly would be willing to bet, I will get the job done as fast or faster than anyone else working in a visible grid environment. :)

And... my results may possibly be much cleaner in overall sound quality, by not using some of these other standard method apps that do loop based editing with time compression artifacts all over the place.

But... to put an end to this ongoing discussion, when there are many more important issues to discuss, in my opinion, let me say that I will put visible grid options on the todo list and try to get that into one of the coming updates... who knows... I may find a use for it... although to be honest, I have not found myself lacking all these years in all the projects I have had to do. :)

Bob L

[dragoodan]

Greetings!

I have to agree with most, a Show Grid function could come in quite handy, I understand the usefullness of SAW's enviroment, and I'm sure that basically everything you could do with a showing grid, you can do without it by other means, however the visible Grid does allow a certain aproach to the proyect that allows you to be aware of where is where; if you are working on a previously recorded track, then you have no need for a grid since you will only edit whats already there, but while creating from scratch, and not using reference points such as markers or having a written score next to you, it does come in handy to have a reference as to know where a section begins and ends, and see it repeat, and knowing where everything is. As far as note to note editing, it is only useful if you want to Snap everything right on time and you dont want to depend on your ears for it.. :rolleyes:

[dragoodan]

Ack! You posted just as I was writting Bob.. Is this like the third time that happens to me? :eek:

Regards!


btw Makar, I would try to open up for different ways.. veeery different ways, as I have learned, they usually come way better. ;)

[TotalSonic]

Well... when I do hip hop type stuff I am usually doing it in midi, because I have the freedom to mess with tempos and things without degrading the sound...

Ahhh - but editing audio aka "chopping loops" directly in SAW allows me to mess with things (some that have nothing to do with the tempo) without degrading the sound as well! - hard to think you'd disagree with me on that one! :D



And... I can see bars and beats in the MWS very easily... I can see the notes referenced on the beat or off the beat... and I can set the grid to snap to very small notes like 32nd notes without the need to fill my screen with lines all over the place at 32nd note intervals... but that is just my opinion.

That's great - I have that option in Orion Platinum (the midi editor I use because of it is much more loop & pattern oriented than MWS) also. But again - when cutting up recorded audio to further manipulate it (often to make it better match midi triggered elements) a lot of times I prefer to do it in SAW for the greater ease in editing and for the better sound of the results.



I certainly would be willing to bet, I will get the job done as fast or faster than anyone else working in a visible grid environment. :)

My beat production chops don't really get used that often these days - so right now I'm not willing to take on anyone in a speed contest! - and especially not you. ;)
BUT - I'm willing to bet for my own personal work flow - and for that of many others - that the speeds in comparison to ourselves would in fact improve with the option for a tempo grid to be made visible.



And... my results may possibly be much cleaner in overall sound quality, by not using some of these other standard method apps that do loop based editing with time compression artifacts all over the place.

Yup - that's why I never use them. I much prefer to do any time compressing/stretching using SAW's varispeed or the Sonoris Pitch Time than what is generally offered with these packages.



But... to put an end to this ongoing discussion, when there are many more important issues to discuss, in my opinion, let me say that I will put visible grid options on the todo list and try to get that into one of the coming updates... who knows... I may find a use for it...

Great!! Much appreciated. Just don't put it ahead of my other favorite requests:
a "Layers View" and an ability to automate dxp and vsp loading.
:D
(sorry that the nagging just never stops for you!)

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Iain Westland]

a "Layers View"

please oh please oh please and a little grid thingy would also be nice

[mikebuzz]

Bob no disrespect but because " I can't see a use for it " does not mean there is'nt one that other people could use or desire !!

Sorry but that is a very common response from you , and there are functions that people can use that "YOU" never would use . :D

To be honest I could use this function also , it just makes it easier for my OLD eyes to locate the exact point ( and some of use are pretty OLD HERE !!!!! LOL )

Later
Buzz
:eek:

[Craig Allen]

But... to put an end to this ongoing discussion, when there are many more important issues to discuss, in my opinion, let me say that I will put visible grid options on the todo list and try to get that into one of the coming updates... who knows... I may find a use for it... although to be honest, I have not found myself lacking all these years in all the projects I have had to do. :)
Much appreciated - I would definately find use for this as well.

[Cary B. Cornett]

it does come in handy to have a reference as to know where a section begins and ends, and see it repeat, and knowing where everything is. As far as note to note editing, it is only useful if you want to Snap everything right on time and you dont want to depend on your ears for it.. :rolleyes: I'm going to disagree a bit on that last point. I recently did a lot of note editing in MWS where I did NOT want to Snap To Grid. I did not want to eliminate the errors, only reduce them so as not to totally eliminate the "feel" of a human performance. I found that the visual grid was VERY helpful to assist me in doing "close, but not quite" graphical edits. :cool: Without it the process would have taken a LOT longer.

[dragoodan]

@Cary:

Ah yes, the humanizing post, I was there :p
Well, I recently did some humanizing myself, and the previous Midi file was as quantized as can be, and to de-quantize it, I had no need at all for the Grid View. Because my reference were the original notes themselves :D

Of course, the view was no expense, but no need.. at least for me ;)

Regards!

[Bob L]

Buzz, no disrespect but I have to write the code for these features that others might use that I might never use. :)

And I have to then tech support those features for a long time to come... that is quite a commitment on my part... and it sure helps if I believe in what I am supporting. :)

Bob L

[Makar]

2 TotalSonic

SAW Layer view for you! :D :D :D

http://kimsansan.mail333.com/flashcard/saw_layer_view.gif

[AudioAstronomer]

2 TotalSonic

SAW Layer view for you! :D :D :D

http://kimsansan.mail333.com/flashcard/saw_layer_view.gif

Oh please don't do that.

My goodness, I would totally wet myself.

[mikebuzz]

NICE MAKAR !!!

And Bob I do understand :D

Later
Buzz

[TotalSonic]

2 TotalSonic

SAW Layer view for you! :D :D :D

http://kimsansan.mail333.com/flashcard/saw_layer_view.gif

I was actually visualizing it slightly different as a pop up view of either 4 (for for Lite) or 8 (for Full) layer channels, zoomable and F-key assignable the same way as the Multitrack window is, that would actually pop up above the Multitrack view instead of being inside or part of it. What design would work best would obviously have to be decided on by Bob.

Good to see that I'm not the only wanting this as a feature enhancement!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Craig Allen]

Good to see that I'm not the only wanting this as a feature enhancement!
No, I've been wanting it for a while as well. But I want SAC more at this point!

[Dave Labrecque]

This all is great but there are situations when start of file doesn't coinside with the pick of waveform on which the file should be moved on track.
In this case it is necessary to see the grid and snap to grid is just not needed.
Anyway possibility of showing or hiding the grid is a big versatility of the programm.

More correct version
http://kimsansan.mail333.com/flashcard/sawgrid2.gif

I agree that this would be handy. Unfortunately, the way it is now, you're forced to chop the front of the region (which may not be desirable) where you want it to coincide with the grid (if you want it to snap to the grid at that point, since there's no visible grid). To do that, for me, it means turning off the auto-zero-cross function so that it doesn't interfere with the cut chop point.

A work-around that works, but there are disadvantages, IMO.

UPDATE: Hey, this region offset/alt-Backspace thing is the ticket, I think. No, you can't see the reference marked in the region, but I think it's way better than temporarily redefining the start boundary of the region. :)

[Dave Labrecque]

Are you saying it's currently not possible to see the grid?:confused:

Mark

Correct. No visual on the grid. It's there in terms of snapability (the G key toggles it on/off), but no can see.

[Dave Labrecque]

You can snap to offsets within regions... and having a visible grid would not help that either... there are many editing features that are handled differently in the SAW environment and I feel that many of them negate the need for certaijn other features that you do require to get things done in other apps... but that is my opinion...

My suggestion is that before you get stuck on something missing... learn about all the ways this may be handled in SAW before thinking there is a problem. :)

You can easily set an offset point within the middle of a region and use that with many commands as the snap point.

And my earlier suggestion was not to split the region but simply adjust the start boundary up to the waveform point you want to reference... then use all the powerful key or mouse snap commands, then, if needed, simply stretch the start boundary back where you originally had it... this is very easy to do in SAW and a very powerful way to work efficiently as well.

You will also note the attention to detail in the design when sliding regions... you can place the cursor at any point within the region and you will get a vertical boundary line at the beg and end points as well as where your cursor is when you grab... this allows you to instantly line things up visually to other waveforms or other reference points on the timeline... again with no need to clutter the display area with all kinds of vertical grid lines.

Just something to consider. :)

Bob L

Hey, Bob. RE: alt-Backspace... I think that would be a great way to do the film audio post region moving where the start of the region isn't on a frame boundary. No region start boundary changing/restoring needed. Also great for the electronic music guys' issue, I'd think.

Would you consider adding a context-menu item that alternatively allows the offset to be defined by the current cursor position? That would save the time of defining the B position first, which can mean having to toggle auto-zero cross off or moving to a track with no data at that position to avoid the auto-zero action.

Thanks.

P.S. Cool on the potential visible grid. Thanks for that.

[Bob L]

The reason for the Begin mark define first is because when you try to popup the menu, your cursor will most surely move off position.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

The reason for the Begin mark define first is because when you try to popup the menu, your cursor will most surely move off position.

Bob L

I see. I did notice that, but with careful dextrous effort, I was able to keep the cursor stable. :)

That's a valid design decision, though, I think. If only I didn't use the auto-zero-cross so dang much. Maybe this'll be the thing that moves me to defaulting to the AZC turned off, though.

[UpTilDawn]

I see. I did notice that, but with careful dextrous effort, I was able to keep the cursor stable. :)

That's a valid design decision, though, I think. If only I didn't use the auto-zero-cross so dang much. Maybe this'll be the thing that moves me to defaulting to the AZC turned off, though.

You can also zoom in far enough for the cursor to stay put when you access the menu.

[Dave Labrecque]

You can also zoom in far enough for the cursor to stay put when you access the menu.

Hmmm... over here it looks like it still moves, but, of course, the delta T is much reduced by virtue of the zoom level. Is that what you mean, Dan?

[UpTilDawn]

Hmmm... over here it looks like it still moves, but, of course, the delta T is much reduced by virtue of the zoom level. Is that what you mean, Dan?

Sorry, I'm not getting what you mean by "delta T" at the moment... but what I mean is that the cursor stops moving out of place when you alt/right click for the menu once you've zoomed in far enough with the number keypad or scroll wheel. So, once you've decided on the offset position within the region, zoom way in which will prevent the cursor from moving when you alt/right click for the menu.

DanT

unless I'm daft... that is.:rolleyes:

[Bob L]

Dan... that does not keep the mouse position when you alt-right-click... that only stops the mouse from moving during playback.

That is why the design is as it is... place your cursor... just press B and then alt-right-click to popup the menu... it will set the offset at the B position regardless of where the mouse may jump to.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Dan,

What he said. But, remember that if you have the auto-zero-cross option enabled, the cursor will most likely move on you with the B keystroke. So be sure to turn auto-zero-cross off first, or move to a track that's empty at that point in time to define your B point.

[UpTilDawn]

Dan... that does not keep the mouse position when you alt-right-click... that only stops the mouse from moving during playback.

That is why the design is as it is... place your cursor... just press B and then alt-right-click to popup the menu... it will set the offset at the B position regardless of where the mouse may jump to.

Bob L

Aha! You are so absolutely right...... as you should be.:)

I haven't used it for a long time because I was always getting frustrated with it.... I just got used to splitting the region and then using the new region edge as the key for offset moving... I like the proper way better though.
Thanks for the enlightenment/reminder.


Dave, I never use auto zero cross, but I'll remember to pass it on to others that may.

DanT

[Dave Labrecque]

Aha! You are so absolutely right...... as you should be.:)

I haven't used it for a long time because I was always getting frustrated with it.... I just got used to splitting the region and then using the new region edge as the key for offset moving... I like the proper way better though.
Thanks for the enlightenment/reminder.


Dave, I never use auto zero cross, but I'll remember to pass it on to others that may.

DanT

I'm probably the last guy who does. But, thanks. :p