Ribbon mics and make up gain in Saw

[Ollie]

Hey guys,
I like using ribbon mics on various audio sources. For louder sources, ribbon s are never an issue, for quieter sources I tend to have to jack pre-amp gain too high with the undesirable side effect of noise. Since I do much of my mixing out of the box, I usually tend to record my signals into the red part of the saw record meter. I had forgotten all about Saw having makeup gain and I am interested in using this for these particular applications.

Who has used Saw's makeup recording gain on a regular basis and does it have any audible side effects?

[TotalSonic]

Instead of a digital solution personally I'd look towards just getting a quiet pre-amp with a lot of gain. Grace Design makes the Model 101 in an optional high gain +70dB version for the same amount of reasonable cash as the regular model. AEA also makes the "Ribbon Pre" which works great for these purposes as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Ollie]

I hear you Steve, but cash is more of an issue for me these days and if I can do this on the cheap that would be my initial preference. I have a Royer SF12 that is really nice for many things, but if the signal is quiet then it becomes a trade off with pre noise and abundant signal. I had a clarinet player the other day that was getting a nice tone, but was playing rather quietly. The SF12 sounded great, but the signal was too low for my liking.

Thanks

[Cary B. Cornett]

Using Saw's makeup gain will have the EXACT same effect, probably, that turning up the preamp gain does, in that it WILL bring up the noise floor along with the desired signal. The noise floor of any signal chain is USUALLY determined by the noise floor of the first active amplification stage. If the sound at a given gain is too noisy for your taste, you need to get a lower noise preamp. Ribbon microphones would certainly present the biggest challenge in that regard.

[TotalSonic]

Well - the only issue is that you bring up the noise floor when you do a lot of post capture gain - but SAW's math is certainly excellent - so if you can't get a higher level cleanly out of your pre then using SAW's fader for a boost is certainly one of the least damaging ways to do it digitially.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

Instead of a digital solution personally I'd look towards just getting a quiet pre-amp with a lot of gain. Grace Design makes the Model 101 in an optional high gain +70dB version for the same amount of reasonable cash as the regular model. AEA also makes the "Ribbon Pre" which works great for these purposes as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Not too long ago I tried a m581 with r-121 (neither were mine)... that was really nice. Plenty of gain to spare. With something quieter (r84) I couldn't imagine any problems at all. iirc the m581 has 80db of gain, and can be switched to 1kohm(i think) impedance. edit: http://www.mercenaryaudio.com/vindes-m581.html Here's more info on it.


To answer OP's original question.. you're going to be bringing up the same amount of noise, if not more, using saw's internal gain. You'll be more-so adding converter/interface noise than pre-amp noise as well... which depending on your equipment can be less than ideal.

A preamp with a very low noise floor and high input impedance (1600+) would be far superior on a ribbon mic.

[Naturally Digital]

The signal to noise ratio of the pre will most likely be non-linear. IOW there will be 'zones' in the pre-amp range that will have better S/N. Often, depending on the pre, the noise jumps up non-linearly near maximum gain. If this is the case for you, you would be best to find an ideal zone where the gain is reasonable but the noise is still low, record there and boost the level digitally, just as you suggest.

If the noise is still too high for your liking then use an expander to try and pull the noise down slightly.

[Ollie]

If I would of remembered the extra Saw gain thing yesterday I would of used that. I ended up using a LDC for this, but truth be told I liked the sound of the ribbon better. The pre I was using seems quiet around the +50db mark, but after that starts to get noisier.

[AudioAstronomer]

If I would of remembered the extra Saw gain thing yesterday I would of used that. I ended up using a LDC for this, but truth be told I liked the sound of the ribbon better. The pre I was using seems quiet around the +50db mark, but after that starts to get noisier.

You'll be raising the noise floor of your pre-amp and converters by the amount of gain applied in SAW.

So if there is any noise in the signal, it will be be increased by the same amount as the material.


It is also no different than applying the gain in saw after the fact, other than it is a destructive process. You would be better off just applying the gain after the fact.

[Bill Park]

It is my guess that you'll like the sound better if you use a preamp designed for the type of gain required by ribbon mics. I don't know what 'on the cheap' means to you, but most of the mic pres in my kit cost over $2k, and AEA offers a lovely sounding little ribbon mic pre for $750. I've tried some others that were much more expensive, and I even talked to John Hardy about modifying one of my M1s, and Grant about modifying a Gordon. Then Wes Dooly came out with this Fred Forssell design...

http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/TRP.html

Sweet.

Bill

[Grekim]

Hey Ollie, what are your signals coming into SAW peaking at in the digital scale? If you're peaks are hitting -12 dBFS or -18 dBFS I would be comfortable making up the gain digitally.

[alchemist]

Hey Ollie, what are your signals coming into SAW peaking at in the digital scale? If you're peaks are hitting -12 dBFS or -18 dBFS I would be comfortable making up the gain digitally.

Agreed.

There's no point in hitting the meters near the red. There are no "bits lost" with a lower signal. That's a myth. Bits just determine the quantization steps of the signal.

You can record -12dBFS and drive the gain up digitally to feed your hardware with no loss of quality. Actually, I would say that recording at -12dBFS sounds MUCH better than recording near the red.

Try it.

[Bud Johnson]

FWIW, Royer makes ribbons with higher output that run on phantom power for this exact reason, and as others have stated, there are many mic pres with high gain/low noise. Millenia also makes a special order model with extra gain.

Mark
Really, I always thought if you ran phantom to a ribbon, you fry it, or might anyway. Are they true ribbons?

[Grekim]

and I even talked to John Hardy about modifying one of my M1s, and Grant about modifying a Gordon.
http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/TRP.html

Sweet.

Bill

Bill, what were you looking for in the Gordon, just a single high gain setting version? The Model 5 has been quite good in combo with the R-121's on an acoustic guitar for example.

[AudioAstronomer]

Really, I always thought if you ran phantom to a ribbon, you fry it, or might anyway. Are they true ribbons?

It's not so much turning phantom power while the mic is connect that can cause trouble...

It's having phantom power turned on THEN connecting the mic that can blow the ribbon.

[Sean McCoy]

I have a hi-gain Grace 101 as well as the 80dB Focusrite ISA428 and have used both with my R84 on softer sources. (my absolute favorite mic for most female and many male singers, and killer on not-so-soft guitar amps) Clean as they are, the fact remains that some hi EQ is generally needed on voices recorded with these and other "darker" mics, which emphasizes the noise floor. It's worth it though, as long as you're careful with the editing so as not to showcase the noise in & out points.

I have on several occasions resorted to using Izotope RX to remove some of the hiss. It's pretty good at doing this unobtrusively, and finally having the plugin version should make this a more convenient process as well.

[alchemist]

It's not so much turning phantom power while the mic is connect that can cause trouble...

It's having phantom power turned on THEN connecting the mic that can blow the ribbon.

Ding ding ding ding!

AudioAstronomer delivers, as always.

[Dave Labrecque]

Yes, they are true ribbons, but with special "gain" circuitry to compensate for the standard low output.

http://www.royerlabs.com/products.html

You are correct that applying phantom power to a traditional ribbon mic can damage the mic.

Mark

Why, just last week I fried a Beyer ribbon that I've had for years in just this way. :mad:

[Ollie]

Well,
The session was kind of a walk thru for some ideas, so I was not that concerned about them getting the final take for this, the ribbon sounded very nice. The mic that was setup was a U47 and I used it in omni about 3 feet away. The Ribbon I tried to work a tad closer. I think I would of preferred the C12B that I have for this instrument if using a LDC.


Out of curiosity, what mic, and where did you place it?

Mark

[Ollie]

Yes the signal was in that range.


Hey Ollie, what are your signals coming into SAW peaking at in the digital scale? If you're peaks are hitting -12 dBFS or -18 dBFS I would be comfortable making up the gain digitally.

[Ollie]

Well I heard one guy describe it as the very top of the skyscraper(meter) usually is in better focus sonically to his ears. This guys is no slouch and recorded and mixed pop, jazz, classical(John Williams being a regular client of his). Analog has a wider range that is in the middle of middle of the building. Since I do not mix in the box much, that has been the approach I have taken and find works for me.



Agreed.

There's no point in hitting the meters near the red. There are no "bits lost" with a lower signal. That's a myth. Bits just determine the quantization steps of the signal.

You can record -12dBFS and drive the gain up digitally to feed your hardware with no loss of quality. Actually, I would say that recording at -12dBFS sounds MUCH better than recording near the red.

Try it.

[Bill Park]

Ding ding ding ding!



well, not quite. Phantom and ribbons can coexist, where the problem arises is that, when plugging in, if one contact carrying phantom makes connection slightly before the other, you loose the balance, and the ribbon gets the voltage hit and smokes. You -can- connect without frying the ribbon, but it is a crapshoot.


Bill

[TotalSonic]

Well,
The session was kind of a walk thru for some ideas, so I was not that concerned about them getting the final take for this, the ribbon sounded very nice. The mic that was setup was a U47 and I used it in omni about 3 feet away. The Ribbon I tried to work a tad closer. I think I would of preferred the C12B that I have for this instrument if using a LDC.

That's a really nice mic selection for a "walk thru"!!
Think I need to stop by your studio for a session one of these days
...and I'll bring a pre for the ribbon :D

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[AudioAstronomer]

well, not quite. Phantom and ribbons can coexist, where the problem arises is that, when plugging in, if one contact carrying phantom makes connection slightly before the other, you loose the balance, and the ribbon gets the voltage hit and smokes. You -can- connect without frying the ribbon, but it is a crapshoot.


Bill

Or having a mis-wired cable down the line :eek:

[Cary B. Cornett]

Well I heard one guy describe it as the very top of the skyscraper(meter) usually is in better focus sonically to his ears. This guys is no slouch and recorded and mixed pop, jazz, classical(John Williams being a regular client of his). Analog has a wider range that is in the middle of middle of the building. Since I do not mix in the box much, that has been the approach I have taken and find works for me. I originally learned to be a "fill the meter" kind of guy, so that I could stay above tape noise. At first I tried hard to do the same thing in digital, including SAW.

Recent experience has shown me that I don't have to be THAT worried about it. I sometimes record a choir in a situation that has to be "set and forget" (I also sing in it, and can only be in one place at a time). I cannot depend on a real sound check, so I have to guess conservatively about mic pre gain. Normally I find there are occasional peaks into the yellow on Bob's record meters, with most material "down in the green". In edit/mastering, I generally find a need to pull the faders up a few dB to pull up the very highest peaks, and I do not "ride gain" at all. I find that the dominant factor in the noise floor of the recording is the ROOM noise, especially at LF. Page turnings and such are plainly audible... and this using the el-cheapo Behringer ADA8000 with its built-in preamps.

I have also learned that vocals on stage (musical theater using body pack mics) commonly cover a dynamic range (peak levels) of 30 dB, which means at least some of the time recording levels are a lot lower than most of us are comfortable with. In that setting the main quality limitations were from the RF mics used, and recording level was simply not a factor.

Of course, I always record 24-bit, and don't go to 16 bit until after any gain changes and processing are done.

Conclusion: it makes the most sense to save "pushing the levels" for mix time, and any level boosting done in the digital domain will sound just as good done in playback as in record, so just capture it "as-is" and worry about it later as long as highest peaks are at least getting into the yellow on Bob's meters.

[Bud Johnson]

Why, just last week I fried a Beyer ribbon that I've had for years in just this way. :mad:
Good to know about hot pluggin ribbons and phantom. Still, I'm way to paranoid to let a ribbon anywhere near my Beyers. I have 4 and love them for horns and toms.
Sorry for your loss Dave. :(

[Dave Labrecque]

I'm way to paranoid to let a ribbon anywhere near my Beyers.

:confused:


I have 4 and love them for horns and toms.
Sorry for your loss Dave. :(

Thanks. I needed that. :o

[Bud Johnson]

DOH!
I'm also way to paranoid to admit that typo!:p

[Dave Labrecque]

There are no "bits lost" with a lower signal. That's a myth. Bits just determine the quantization steps of the signal.

So if I record my peaks at -90 dB, I'm okay? I'd say I'm losing bits. Am I wrong?

Normalizing the track back to 0 dBFS is going to leave me with about 8-bit audio, isn't it? As in the lowest 8 bits.

[Dave Labrecque]

DOH!
I'm also way to paranoid to admit that typo!:p

Well, at least your microphones are still working. :) Which is more than I can say for me. :p

[AudioAstronomer]

So if I record my peaks at -90 dB, I'm okay? I'd say I'm losing bits. Am I wrong?

Normalizing the track back to 0 dBFS is going to leave me with about 8-bit audio, isn't it? As in the lowest 8 bits.

You're correct...

And it'd be a 9-bit signal :o

[sebastiandybing]

Hi Ollie

I tested a SF12 with my RME mistacy converter on a chamber concert,
a string kvartet (Beethoven), a piano duo and a piano trio.

I was really happy to hear that there was no noticeble noise, I even increase
the hf with 3,5 db, with no problems.

The gain was 63 db on the micstacy and that resultet in -7 dbFS on the input meters at Forte places.

anyway its the best sounding stereo mic I have heard, I must own one.

Anyway the Micstacy can handle it with ease, so if you are looking for a good ad converter + good mic pre´s the Micstacy can handle it.

Sebastian

[AudioAstronomer]

It's not so much turning phantom power while the mic is connect that can cause trouble...

It's having phantom power turned on THEN connecting the mic that can blow the ribbon.

http://www.shinybox.com/RibbonPhantom.php or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmHgPbSqhAE

:D

[Dave Labrecque]

http://www.shinybox.com/RibbonPhantom.php or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmHgPbSqhAE

:D

He makes it look like you can't fry a ribbon mic with phantom power. How did I do the impossible?

[AudioAstronomer]

He makes it look like you can't fry a ribbon mic with phantom power. How did I do the impossible?

Uh...

It sounds like you didn't watch the video? He demonstrates rather clearly how you CAN fry a ribbon mic with phantom power.

There are variations on the theme, but the basic principle is the same.

[Bill Park]

He makes it look like you can't fry a ribbon mic with phantom power. How did I do the impossible?

If you could insure that both of the hot pins make at exactly the same instant, you would not blow a ribbon with phantom. When one hot pin makes before the other, then the potential voltage traveling to ground frys the ribbon. While phantom itself is not harmful to ribbons because of the design, plugging a ribbon into a 'hot' phantom supply can result in damage because of the physical realities of plugging in the mic cable can bypass the phantom design.

Rck said it well many years ago, here:
http://www.uneeda-audio.com/phantom/index.htm

Bill

[Dave Labrecque]

Uh...

It sounds like you didn't watch the video? He demonstrates rather clearly how you CAN fry a ribbon mic with phantom power.

There are variations on the theme, but the basic principle is the same.

I watched the video. Didn't see any frying, though. When was that? When the ribbon 'excursion' happened upon shorting pins?

I would've expected smoke or a noise or something. Or maybe a comment like "so don't do that".

[Dave Labrecque]

If you could insure that both of the hot pins make at exactly the same instant, you would not blow a ribbon with phantom. When one hot pin makes before the other, then the potential voltage traveling to ground frys the ribbon. While phantom itself is not harmful to ribbons because of the design, plugging a ribbon into a 'hot' phantom supply can result in damage because of the physical realities of plugging in the mic cable can bypass the phantom design.

Rck said it well many years ago, here:
http://www.uneeda-audio.com/phantom/index.htm

Bill

Yeah, it just didn't look like anything bad happened in the video.

[DominicPerry]

I watched the video. Didn't see any frying, though. When was that? When the ribbon 'excursion' happened upon shorting pins?

I would've expected smoke or a noise or something. Or maybe a comment like "so don't do that".

I saw a guitar speaker cable smoke once. But I don't think for Ribbon mics and phantom power the currents involved are likely to get you to anything dramatic. Can we have a whip round for a school chemistry set for Dave so he can do some explosions?

Dominic

[Dave Labrecque]

I saw a guitar speaker cable smoke once. But I don't think for Ribbon mics and phantom power the currents involved are likely to get you to anything dramatic. Can we have a whip round for a school chemistry set for Dave so he can do some explosions?

Dominic

Actually, in one notable college episode I was able to get by with nothing more than a Bic lighter and my own God-given "gifts".

[AudioAstronomer]

I watched the video. Didn't see any frying, though. When was that? When the ribbon 'excursion' happened upon shorting pins?

I would've expected smoke or a noise or something. Or maybe a comment like "so don't do that".

If your phantom power is causing smoke then you have some other very serious problems.


Phantom power to a ribbon causes stretching or breakage of the ribbon. That is how the damage occurs. If something happens that causes fire or smoke, then the occurance would more than likely have blown up any mic.

[DominicPerry]

Dave, to repeat that, you risk sitting on your expensive ribbon mics. Don't do that!

Dominic

[Dave Labrecque]

If your phantom power is causing smoke then you have some other very serious problems.


Phantom power to a ribbon causes stretching or breakage of the ribbon. That is how the damage occurs. If something happens that causes fire or smoke, then the occurance would more than likely have blown up any mic.

OK, well, I'm not arguing for more smoke. I was really just not clear that anything bad had happened to the man's ribbon. I'm not very knowledgable about microphone mechanics and related materials and such. When he talked about the ribbon's changed characteristics, I wasn't sure if he meant during or after the short. Some materials deform plastically, some elastically. Many, both, depending on conditions.

[Cary B. Cornett]

OK, well, I'm not arguing for more smoke. I was really just not clear that anything bad had happened to the man's ribbon. When he talked about the ribbon's changed characteristics, I wasn't sure if he meant during or after the short. First of all, you can see the ribbon jump when the "fault short" is applied. That jump is a far greater excursion than the ribbon would ever have in normal use. Second, yes, he was talking about a permanent alteration of the ribbon's characteristics. :( If you are lucky, the sound of the microphone is altered, but it still "works"... sort of. :p There is a fair chance, though, that after the fault happens the output from the mic, if any at all, will be weak and distorted.:mad:

[Dave Labrecque]

First of all, you can see the ribbon jump when the "fault short" is applied. That jump is a far greater excursion than the ribbon would ever have in normal use. Second, yes, he was talking about a permanent alteration of the ribbon's characteristics. :( If you are lucky, the sound of the microphone is altered, but it still "works"... sort of. :p There is a fair chance, though, that after the fault happens the output from the mic, if any at all, will be weak and distorted.:mad:

In my case, weak, distorted, and nothing below 1000 Hz. :o

But now it's my go-to mic for recording triangle. :p

[Angie]

Why, just last week I fried a Beyer ribbon that I've had for years in just this way. :mad:

If you are going to have it re-ribboned, Stephen Sank is now in Tuscon http://www.thuntek.net/~bk11/home.htm

He fixed my M260 a couple years ago.

[Bud Johnson]

If you are going to have it re-ribboned, Stephen Sank is now in Tuscon http://www.thuntek.net/~bk11/home.htm (http://www.thuntek.net/%7Ebk11/home.htm)

He fixed my M260 a couple years ago.
I think he may have gotten out of that business as the link for ribbon repair is a 404. He lists a link he recommends do the work and either they haven't payed their domain fee, or out of business.

[Sean McCoy]

In case I haven't mentioned him previously, Clarence Kane refurbished my M160's last year and they're as good as new.

http://enakmic.com/

[Angie]

I think he may have gotten out of that business as the link for ribbon repair is a 404. He lists a link he recommends do the work and either they haven't payed their domain fee, or out of business.

None of the links work. It is a pretty bad site in general. He did update the address on the website. Emailing or calling him directly is probably best. He only recommends the other company for condenser repair. I know nothing about them.

[Dave Labrecque]

If you are going to have it re-ribboned, Stephen Sank is now in Tuscon http://www.thuntek.net/~bk11/home.htm (http://www.thuntek.net/%7Ebk11/home.htm)

He fixed my M260 a couple years ago.

I visited Stephen in his shop a few weeks back. He apparently has all the remaining ribbon stock and original crimping tools from the old RCA operation in the 50s/60s. His dad left it with him.

Dang. The website pages were working back then. I'll send an email over and let them know that we're trying to look at their site.

I was considering having him repair or mod my Beyer (it worked okay, but some of the internals were coming apart). They let me borrow one of their modded mics to test out. It was during this A/B-ing that I fried mine. Ouch.

Anyway, I wasn't happy with the sound of his ribbon mod. Very scooped midrange to my ear on voice. Maybe I should've tried it on other stuff. His partner was telling me how much better-sounding the mods are compared with the originals. I just wanted my condensers back. :) I may sell them my fried Beyer to rebuild and resell.

[Bill Park]

I visited Stephen in his shop a few weeks back. He apparently has all the remaining ribbon stock and original crimping tools from the old RCA operation in the 50s/60s. ....

It is my understanding that Clarence Kane, who worked for RCA, has this stuff. At any rate, Clarence restored my 1930s RCA PB90 (daddy to the 44) and my 77D. quite reasonable pricing.

Bill

[Dave Labrecque]

It is my understanding that Clarence Kane, who worked for RCA, has this stuff. At any rate, Clarence restored my 1930s RCA PB90 (daddy to the 44) and my 77D. quite reasonable pricing.

Bill

Maybe it's like the end of WWII. The Russians got half the Nazi scientists and the US got the other half.

FWIW, I did see what looked like a pretty aged crimping-die-looking thing on the counter. :)

[TotalSonic]

This is very second hand info so take it with a big grain of salt but if you Google Stephen Sank you'll find a good number of folks on audio forums posting that they were pretty unhappy with the customer service they received - i.e. phone calls, emails, and most dismayingly mics unreturned after extended periods.

EDIT further reading shows that this happened a few years (circa 2004-2005) back as a result of a car accident he was in. Hopefully he is doing better now.

I believe Jon Ulrigg of Shiny Box can do some ribbon mic repairs - http://www.shinybox.com
Also Michael Joly has a good rep for doing ribbon mic repairs and mods as well - http://www.oktavamod.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Angie]

This is very second hand info so take it with a big grain of salt but if you Google Stephen Sank you'll find a good number of folks on audio forums posting that they were pretty unhappy with the customer service they received - i.e. phone calls, emails, and most dismayingly mics unreturned after extended periods.

EDIT further reading shows that this happened a few years (circa 2004-2005) back as a result of a car accident he was in. Hopefully he is doing better now.

I believe Jon Ulrigg of Shiny Box can do some ribbon mic repairs - http://www.shinybox.com
Also Michael Joly has a good rep for doing ribbon mic repairs and mods as well - http://www.oktavamod.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson

I had heard some negative stuff also, but sent the mic to him anyway. I had very little to loose. I got the mic for practically nothing. I was pleasantly surprise to get the mic back in a short period of time. Especially since I sent it to him in the middle of his move from Albuquerque.

There are others who do this work. I only mentioned Stephen because he is so close to Dave. Chris and I have talked about sending him a 77DX for repair also, but now we'd like to fully restore it. Stephen doesn't do cosmetic restoration as I understand it.

[Ian Alexander]

I had heard some negative stuff also, but sent the mic to him anyway. I had very little to loose. I got the mic for practically nothing. I was pleasantly surprise to get the mic back in a short period of time. Especially since I sent it to him in the middle of his move from Albuquerque.

There are others who do this work. I only mentioned Stephen because he is so close to Dave. Chris and I have talked about sending him a 77DX for repair also, but now we'd like to fully restore it. Stephen doesn't do cosmetic restoration as I understand it.
Check out http://wesdooley.com/

[Angie]

Check out http://wesdooley.com/

Yes, we've already decided to send it to him when we have the chance. ;)

[Dave Labrecque]

I had heard some negative stuff also, but sent the mic to him anyway. I had very little to loose. I got the mic for practically nothing. I was pleasantly surprise to get the mic back in a short period of time. Especially since I sent it to him in the middle of his move from Albuquerque.

There are others who do this work. I only mentioned Stephen because he is so close to Dave. Chris and I have talked about sending him a 77DX for repair also, but now we'd like to fully restore it. Stephen doesn't do cosmetic restoration as I understand it.

I just heard back from Fen Ikner, a very nice musician/studio guy who's working over in Stephen Sank's shop. He said he may pop in and say hi.