Recording ahead of playback on MT

[bcorkery]

I have a LynxOne card at 4x1024 MME (both record and playback) and the recording to the Multi-Track is dropped in before the existing tracks. Should I be loading more playback buffers? :confused:

[Bob L]

Only way that comes to mind for that to happen would be if you are using a setting for the loopback latency (under the Driver Model Menu option) that is too large... I would suggest making sure that setting is zero and see if that changes things.

Bob L

[bcorkery]

The loopback latency is and has always been set to "0".
The recording is about .263 seconds before the existing music track.

Only 1 stereo music track for this experiment.
Recording 1 mono track.
No plug ins except for Levelizer on the output track post fader, but it's not active.

With ASIO at 2x64 in and 4x64 out, same MT setup, it all seems fine ... BUT I often get video lock despite the hardware accelerator set back almost half way (2 of 5 clicks Matrox 650 PCIe).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Bob L]

Well... possibly the skip first ASIO buffer option might be needed for that driver... see if that helps.

Bob L

[bcorkery]

Thanks Bob. I'll make that adjustment tomorrow.

[bcorkery]

Skip 1st buffer seems much better tough I still get the overrun warning occasionally.

Is there anything I can check about the MME issue on the multi track?

Thanks,
Bill

[Bob L]

Your setup may just need more buffers... try 128 buffer size.

You should also be able to use MME drivers (if not in Vista) but the Lynx will probably need 4 x 1024 for MME.

Bob L

[bcorkery]

Thanks Bob. My default for MME is 4x1024 & I'm using XP Pro SP2 w/all the tweaks.

Before building my new machine, I never had a problem with this. I've added a FW card(PCIe-TI chipset) and an RME 96-8 card. Can these be causing some kind of conflict?

[Bob L]

I am not sure what could be causing the problem... its pretty amazing though... while everyone is wrestling with a few ms of latency, you have acheived negative latency. :)

Congratulations.

Bob L

[Mountain Media]

I am not sure what could be causing the problem... its pretty amazing though... while everyone is wrestling with a few ms of latency, you have acheived negative latency. :)

Congratulations.

Bob L

Now if you could just sell some of your negative latency to others who feel they have too much -- :D It sounds like you've created an 'audio advance line' as compared to an 'audio delay line'. With negative latency you hear the audio BEFORE it's actually created.

[Bob L]

There could be a clue to time travel technology in there someplace.... perhaps I better get started on a plugin. :)

Bob L

[bcorkery]

Bob,

Here's my next question ...
Oh, never mind you already answered it! :D

[Dave Labrecque]

Bob,

Here's my next question ...
Oh, never mind you already answered it! :D

I come to you from the year 3145, when the complete text of the sawstudiouser forum is revered as the holiest of holy books. Indeed, this is one of the more oft' quoted threads. We honor many of you as Disciples of the Holy One -- St. Mark, of course, as the holiest; seated, essentially, at the right-hand of the Father.

Bless you all. Thanks be to Bob.

[studio-c]

You are one twisted boy, Dave... :D

Thanks for the coffee shooting out my nose.

Scott

[MMP]

In SRP, SAWStudio doesn't seem to account for output plugins with latency, so overdubs don't align properly because you are hearing the track later than the overdub is being placed. I think this could create the negative latency you report, though I am severely dyslexic around time.

Moral of the story...no latency causing plugins on the output tracks while tracking!

Regards,

MM

[bcorkery]

Michael,

Thanks. I did have the Levelizer on the output track but not engaged. I can experiment and pull it out completely to see if that makes a difference but it's my understanding that if the fx button is off, the contents aren't included in the loop.

[bcorkery]

I tried a simple test:

Lynx MME @ 4x1028 in and out
1 Stereo music track with clicks at the head
No compression FX or anything else on any of the tracks
SRP mono on 1 track and clapping when I hear the click
All at 44.1KHz & 16bits

The results - the clap is recorded about .3 seconds ahead of the corresponding click so the vocal starts before the instrumentals by the same amount of time.

ASIO works fine but I'm not fond of the greediness of this driver model.
- I can't play an MP3 in Sound Forge with SAW open.
- Sometimes Sound Forge won't work at all when trying to play a file even if SAW is closed. SF has somehow defaulted to Windows mapper.
- If I change buffer size on the Lynx card I have to reboot the machine for it to take effect.

With MME I never had any of these problems but that's been a problem for me lately. I still haven't tried ASIO4All yet but that sounds like it might be a more robust driver than the Lynx offering. I know the LynxOne is an older card but I'm trying to keep expenses down until after the election. (hoping that will help get the economy moving again.)

I seem to be spending more time fighting with my new machine than I ever did with the old one. It makes me less adventurous when things aren't happening the way I think they should. I'm wondering if I should pull it apart a piece at a time to see if one of the drives or a RAM stick or anything else might at the root of my problems. Is anybody else feeling my pain? Any suggestions/direction/consolation would be appreciated.

Thanks for letting me vent. :o

[Bob L]

Try looping the output back around to the input and recording the track playback with the clicks in the front on another track... then zoom in and see if the recorded clicks are ahead of the playback track.

If they are behind... as they should be, then perhaps you are clapping ahead of the beat and there really is no problem at all except for the performance.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Try looping the output back around to the input and recording the track playback with the clicks in the front on another track... then zoom in and see if the recorded clicks are ahead of the playback track.

If they are behind... as they should be, then perhaps you are clapping ahead of the beat and there really is no problem at all except for the performance.

Bob L

Bill, you're not white by any chance, are you? :p

[AcousticGlue]

Bill, you're not white by any chance, are you? :p

Ouch!

[bcorkery]

Guilty as charged.

Bob, I was swamped today. I'll give this a try tomorrow.
Thanks

[Gubbo]

Interesting - I'm experiencing the same problem, only in my case it's random - sometimes the regions are placed slightly "ahead of time", but mostly not.

Funny thing is, that if I make repeated takes using SRP, only one out of 10 retakes (or so) comes out-of-synch... Sometimes it's months and months between the out-of-synch occurs.

I always have lots of plugins active, but all of them are the standard SAW ones (Levelizer, Reverberator etc).

My setup: LynxONE (only sound card, love it) in an ancient PC running XP. I tweak the PC as little as possible (installed SP2 just a month ago...) and I NEVER connect it to the internet. I would have bought a new PC long ago, but I'm scared of getting into trouble with a new machine... :o

/Per

[DominicPerry]

So far, the common factor (2 out of 2) is a Lynx card. Anyone else using Lynx care to comment?

Can you guys with the problem replicate it with another card, even the internal soundcard?

Dominic

[Ian Alexander]

Currently on a Lynx L22, but ran a LynxONE for years. Never noticed this, but have to admit that on a lot of sessions here, I wouldn't notice. Mostly one track or multi-VO jobs where timing between tracks doesn't happen until editing anyway. Still a big Lynx fan.

Hope this gets figured out.

[bcorkery]

I finally got around to running Bob's test - Perfect sync!

I also recorded with the mic about 6" form the speaker, to remove my whiteness from the equation, and I'm still getting the audio .273 of a second ahead of the playback.

It's late and been a tough week so I'll try another sound card next week. Good suggestion Perry.

Ian - I've had singers complain about the sync before but it's never been almost a third of a second, just a millisecond or two.

Gubbo - I like the sound of the card too and I'm beginning to think there's something a little wonky under the hood so when there's a break in the action, I'll pull the box apart and do some diagnostics.

[Bud Johnson]

My LynxTwo-C card was delivered today. Deflating............
Deflating............ Deflating.............Breath....Breath......Breath ......Deflating
......Deflating.....Deflating.....------------------------------

[bcorkery]

Bud,

How's the Lynx card working?

I tried my test with my Apogee in MME mode, same settings as the Lynx, 4x1024 and it worked fine, the voc file lined up with the music.

I then pulled the PCIe Firewire card out, yanked the RME card, swapped the RAM and I'm still getting .27 milliseconds of voc before the music with Lynx/MME.

I have a trouble ticket with Lynx and am waiting a response.

Meantime, I'm using AISO. I guess that's becoming the standard anyway so I may as well embrace it. I'd really like to get to the bottom of this Bizarro World incident though.

Wish me luck!

[Bud Johnson]

Bud,

How's the Lynx card working?

I tried my test with my Apogee in MME mode, same settings as the Lynx, 4x1024 and it worked fine, the voc file lined up with the music.

I then pulled the PCIe Firewire card out, yanked the RME card, swapped the RAM and I'm still getting .27 milliseconds of voc before the music with Lynx/MME.

I have a trouble ticket with Lynx and am waiting a response.

Meantime, I'm using AISO. I guess that's becoming the standard anyway so I may as well embrace it. I'd really like to get to the bottom of this Bizarro World incident though.

Wish me luck!
Bill,
When the Lynx2-C came I had time to install and confirm it worked. Then I tried my Frankenstein tests. Trying to get RME and Lynx to both output at the same time.
I could (of course) select either cards driver model and could access either. I then tried asio4all, but it only saw the Lynx card.
Shouldn't it see the RME also?
Oddly, I could access both using the DWAVE protocal. But the lowest buffers that wouldn't stutter we're in the 512 s. Dwave shouldn't have worked at all should it?
Anyway, as my D8b is on Ebay, I had to confirm functionality, and get to work packing the D8b.
This has led to a complete reinstall? of my studio. As I've dumped most of my outboard stuff, I've had to redo everything from my patch bays, re racking whats left, and a lot more. My studio is totally down. I hope to be back up by Monday. After that, I'll be able to do some meaningful testing and will most likely start a thread or 2 based on what I find.
Sorry I'm no help yet.

[bcorkery]

Thanks Bud. Sounds like you have a busy weekend. G'Lluck with the re-vamp. I look forward to your findings.

[bcorkery]

OK, isn't it something simple most of the time?

It turns out that there's a little option in the LynxOne mixer menu called Sync Start. Paul Erlandson, from Lynx, told me to change that setting, whatever it might be to see if that helped ... it did.

Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

OTOH, if you want to reduce ... er ... reverse your latency, toggle Sync Start. :)

[Leadfoot]

ha, i don't know why that made me laugh.. 29 posts later :)

Tony

[Ian Alexander]

Glad there was a fix, Bill. In spite of interface issues, I'm still a big Lynx fan. I think they spend more time and money on the design and the parts than they do on the interface. Based on posts about TotalMix and other sound card apps, this is kinda SOP among interfaces. Considering how few pro sound cards are sold compared to mainstream hardware, that's probably to be expected.

[DominicPerry]

Get an RME;). Oh, sorry, I thought I was someone else.:D

Glad you got it sorted. I think that we can still be pleased with the Lynx support. If you need reassuring, check out the Tascam or Mackie forums. Lots of angry participants.

Dominic

[Bud Johnson]

OK, isn't it something simple most of the time?

It turns out that there's a little option in the LynxOne mixer menu called Sync Start. Paul Erlandson, from Lynx, told me to change that setting, whatever it might be to see if that helped ... it did.

Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

OTOH, if you want to reduce ... er ... reverse your latency, toggle Sync Start. :)

Good to know. Thanks

[bcorkery]

Get an RME;). Oh, sorry, I thought I was someone else.:DOoohhhh, wise guy huh? Why I oughta .... whoop, whoop, whoop! :D

[Gubbo]

I checked my Lynx settings, and Sync Start was activated - so I deactivated it and hope for the best :)

Thanks,

/Per

[bcorkery]

Gubbo,

It worked for me. I'm happily using MME and accessing all devises at the same time. Just the way I like it!

-Bill