OT stop the bleeding?

[Cary B. Cornett]

I am working on preliminary mixes for a project that is stylistically supposed to be a jazz meets prog rock deal. The quartet performed live together in the studio (not mine... some place in Paris). We have drums, piano, bass (guitar), and (electric) guitar. Unfortunately, there is so much bleed from the cymbals into the piano mics that I could probably mute the drum OH tracks and no one would notice. :eek: I really want to be able to brighten the piano a bit to hold its own in the mix, but can't figure out how to do so without bringing up the cymbals too. :mad:

Is there some trick I could use to get around this problem, short of trying to get the producer to re-cut the piano??

[Leadfoot]

I could be dreaming here, but I wonder if you could take a overhead track and the piano track and reverse the phase on one of them and cancel out the bleed but still retain the piano information. I doubt it would work cause of different mics and distance, but it might do something helpful.. hmm.

Tony

[TotalSonic]

Perhaps you could use a de-esser set to target the main frequency band of the cymbals, or a multiband compressor set to compress a single band similarly set? I'm not sure whether this would work well but might be worth a quick experiment.

Also perhaps simply eq'ing with a high shelf up but with another band cutting the primary freq's of the cymbals might help as a compromise.

Otherwise - maybe just leave the piano more on the "dark side" and just try to make the best out of what you've been given.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Tim Miskimon]

Raise the EQ on the piano as you wish and on the cymbal tracks cut the same Freqs by the same amount that you boosted them on the piano track.
That has worked in the past for me on several mix sessions.

[Fat Cat Music]

Hello,
Although this may not help your existing recording, I would offer this solution for the future: use a plexiglass gobo between the piano and the drum set. The high frequencies from the cymbals are quite directional so putting a physical block between the cymbals and the mics on the piano works wonders.
You did not mention what you were using for mics on the piano or whether you were taking the lid off entirely or leaving it on the post (high or low). For recording I have found I get less bleed if I just take the highly reflective lid off the piano entirely.
Although this may not be scceptable aesthetically for live stage performance, we have also turned the piano around so the drummer and the painist are on the same back line, thus putting the lid between the piano and the drums.
Earthworks cardioids are very smooth up close for the piano and help to eliminate bleed. You could also check out using a DPA SMK4061 Stereo Microphone setup.
I think they go for around 1k$ and sound amazing on piano.
Have fun
DRBurroughs

[Fat Cat Music]

Hello,
You did not mention whether or not the drums were on separate tracks.
I have found that it is easier to take a little top off the cymbals and use the high frequency cymbal bleed to make up for that. m You will have to experiment a bit to see how much yopu can cut the top end on the cymbal track while boosting the piano track.
Have fun
DRBurroughs

[Ollie]

Go with the bleed instead of fighting it. I recorded a Jazz quartet a couple of weeks ago where that was the case. I had drum bleed in the stand up players mic and some in the sax mic. Go counter intuitive. If you really need more high end from the piano, then maybe you get that from the cymbals, not the piano. Most of the time, the piano does not need a ton of high end anyways. When using eq on any of the tracks in the mix, I found it kind of worked differently when there is bleed. Another instrument's mic may have what you need. Good luck.

Here is what I came up with on a tune.

http://www.riverbendstudio.com/media/SumnerT/AChildisBorn.mp3


I am working on preliminary mixes for a project that is stylistically supposed to be a jazz meets prog rock deal. The quartet performed live together in the studio (not mine... some place in Paris). We have drums, piano, bass (guitar), and (electric) guitar. Unfortunately, there is so much bleed from the cymbals into the piano mics that I could probably mute the drum OH tracks and no one would notice. :eek: I really want to be able to brighten the piano a bit to hold its own in the mix, but can't figure out how to do so without bringing up the cymbals too. :mad:

Is there some trick I could use to get around this problem, short of trying to get the producer to re-cut the piano??

[Angie]

Hello,
Although this may not help your existing recording, I would offer this solution for the future:

Ah, if only we were always able to track the projects we are hired to mix. Life would be so much easier sometimes. But he did mention the tracks were done in another studio. I can only assume that means he did not do the tracking. :(

I actually like Tim's suggestion. Have you tried it, Cary?

[Cary B. Cornett]

You did not mention what you were using for mics on the piano or whether you were taking the lid off entirely or leaving it on the post (high or low). For recording I have found I get less bleed if I just take the highly reflective lid off the piano entirely. Sadly, I had nothing to do with the original recording session, which was done at a studio in Paris that I am told is well known for all the jazz luminaries that have recorded there (forgot the name). Given the studio's reputation, I was really disappointed, since it would seem to me that a skilled enough engineer would have managed to do a better job in that department.

I like the ideas you mentioned, and will try to keep them in mind for the future. As to microphone choices, I am afraid mine are somewhat limited, but I have some hopes that I now have stuff that is at least "good" for most situations. Last time I recorded a piano the best I had was a pair of AKG451/CK2 omnis. Next chance I get I will experiment with a pair of Peluso CEMC6 that I got recently.

[Cary B. Cornett]

Go with the bleed instead of fighting it. I recorded a Jazz quartet a couple of weeks ago where that was the case. I had drum bleed in the stand up players mic and some in the sax mic. Go counter intuitive. If you really need more high end from the piano, then maybe you get that from the cymbals, not the piano. I have done stuff like that in the past, but sadly I can't find that option in these tracks. The bleed appears to be all one way: to the piano, not from it. To make things worse, the cymbals are actually louder in the piano mics than in the drum OH tracks.

Most of the time, the piano does not need a ton of high end anyways. I find that depends on what you are trying to do. For classical and some jazz, there is a tendency to go for a darker voicing, but for rock/pop and current country, what you want is a sound that can hold its own in a dense mix, and a brightly-voiced piano makes that a LOT easier. If that is not available, some fairly aggressive EQ may be called for.

On another tune in this project, where there is very little bleed from drums to piano, I applied a fair amount of top boost and a bit of a broad dip around 300 Hz. That trick bought me a fair amount of clarity in the piano sound.

Listened to that track of yours.... boy, I could really hear the spit in that sax! No lack of detail there.... sounded to me like you got a pretty decent balance, and if you had not told me I would not have known that you had to "fight" leakage to get it.