Managing cymbal levels in mixdown

[UpTilDawn]

Hi all.

Assuming that the decisions of mic placement, type, issolation, etc. are beyond your control in a live recording.......

what would be some of your solutions at mixdown to control overbearing cymbal bleed into nearby mics and cymbals that are generally recorded too loud?

Keep in mind that many of the microphones where bleed is a big problem are microphones used to pick up instruments with lots of energy in the same frequency range as the cymbals, such as saxophones,trumpets, piano......

What's a good way to minimize the cymbal bleed without losing the character of those instruments?

Thanks,
DanT

[AudioAstronomer]

Dynamic EQ! :)

Or just de-ess them. (opposite idea).

[Oz Nimbus]

Hi all.


What's a good way to minimize the cymbal bleed without losing the character of those instruments?

Thanks,
DanT


Find a better drummer.

[SoundSuite]

Tough one there DanT...

With varying success, and judging the best of the worst results, ie the lesser of evils, you can try the following 3 things.

For this basic example:
CYM1 is bleeding thru CYM2's mic.
Results can be achieved in the same effects with more CYM's/mics needless to say, it's just easier to demonstrate with 2. :)


1) Simply boosting EQ outside of the main spectrum of CYM1 on the CYM2 track or De-Essing the CYM2 track with frequencies in CYM1's main spectrum would effect both Cymbals tone on CYM2 track. Useful, but changes tone sometimes drastically.

2) Sometimes you can flip the phases and cancel, but unless the mics are identical in character, you are not going to have good success.
For Example, in a new temporary session, open just the CYM1 and CYM2 wavs onto 2 tracks.
Reverse the phase on the CYM1 track, and adjust volume on CYM1 channel as needed to raise or lower sound of CYM1 in CYM2.
This routine also sometimes results in the same effect as above, changing the tone of CYM2 to get CYM1 down in level.
Playing with phase opens up a new can of worms to consider and prepare for, but used correctly and when possible, it works great.
If you get a usable result from the CYM2 after reversing phase on CYM1 and tweaking, then buildmix to new soundfile, and use the new soundfile as your CYM2 track in your main session.

3) On CYM2 track, lower the overall volume, use an expander and set the threshold so it makes the CYM2 louder when struck and not boosting CYM1's dynamic range or volume.
This will add more separation or volume differences to the sounds while not messing with tone.
This also sometimes makes CYM2 a little too brash, which then it 'needs' EQ, at that case, you have just messed with tone again.

In sumnation, good luck.
Once there is bleed recorded, it's not always easy to sedate it.

[UpTilDawn]

Hi.
Thanks for those replies.

Glenn.... Cute. :rolleyes:


I'll have to play around with these other ideas and see what gives me the best results...... They all sound promising in one way or the other.

Robert,
do you have a particular dynamic eq in mind?...... a preference maybe?

DanT

[AudioAstronomer]

www.sonalksis.com check out the DQ1, it's a really fantastic implentation. It is an EQ controlled by the dynamics of the signal... It's like a multiband compressor that instead of controlling the volume of the signal when the threshold is violated, it controls the gain on a specific band of a filter.

Also www.voxengo.com has GlissEQ which is a bit different, I find it can be cool for enhancing a signal a lot, and the dq1 a bit better for "fixing".

Good luck! Try the demo's, they arent an everyday use kind of thing but when you need it, it's a lifesaver.

[UpTilDawn]

Thanks Robert.
You're a wealth of information.
Amazing to me how quickly you learn Saw in such depth.
DanT

[AudioAstronomer]

I grew up in a recording studio, started using digital recording in the early 90's... have 2 degrees in music :) Its really all I know. Dont ask me how to fix a car or put up drywall, but I can handle recording and housekeeping damn well :) hehe. I appreciate the compliment, made me blush hehe

Also, you can setup a dynamic EQ of sorts in SAW. Pick your favorite IIR eq (equim is my choice), dupe your track twice, apply an EQ to dupe 1. Dupe 1 will be your "eq track". Set up dupe 2 so it's filtered... like how you'd setup a desser on a console. Set dupe 1 to be gated, keyed by dupe 2. give it liberal release and long attack. Set your routing as necassary.

When dupe 1 is un-gated it will summe with the original track and depending on your eq settings, sound like a dynamic eq but with flavor. If you want to do cuts you have to invert the polarity and redo it as needed.

It's a different sound, and it can really sound cool sometimes. Certainly not technically the best way but I have done it a few times and it's a really good smooth effect that can tame the things you need.

[Oz Nimbus]

Actually, I wasn't joking. 90% of the drum sound is going to come from the drummer. If you're getting too much cymbal bleed into the tom mics, then the drummer is probably hitting them too hard. There's several solutions, #1 being find a better drummer.

However, here's some other ideas:

Break up the kit: the farther away the cymbals are from the toms, the better. The kit as a whole will sound better.

Crank up the overheads into the drummers' headphones. Drummers will naturally hit the cymbals harder the minute they throw phones on because they're subconciously trying to compensate for the massive hi shelf you just put on thier ears. Crank the overheads up. WAY up, and they'll back off on the cymbals. Belive me, this works like a charm. If you're feeling particualrly evil strap an L2 or a levelizer across the drummer's headphone feed. :D

[AudioAstronomer]

My favorite thing to do to drummers (as a drummer myself) who bash the cymbals too hard, is give them a pair of cymbals they hate. Playing some dark zildjians... put on some really bright sabians.... they're be a lot more conscious (and get really creative heh).

Then again, Im in the camp of just getting a good drummer (or ever so modestly doing the drum tracks myself hah).

[UpTilDawn]

Thanks for the suggestions Glenn.
In the situations I'm speaking of, I have no control over who the drummer is, what drums and cymbals he chooses, how to set up his kit, or how he gets what in the monitors.

The problems I'm trying to deal with are the result of simply micing a live band (of which I have no say or control of) with lots of acoustic instruments such as horns and acoustic piano. The drum bleed I'm trying to contain is in the various horn and piano mics, not the drum mics...... although your suggestions are taken to heart and I will surely make use of them..... that's why I thought you were being funny, haha....

I personally have my feelings about basher drummers after 20 yrs. of close proximity hussy fits, maniac attitudes, hamming it up for the audience and generally trying to balance my guitar sound through the din..... my left ear has felt the pain. :eek: It's a wonder I don't have splinters sticking out the back of my head too......

I've gained a new respect over the last 10-15 yrs thanks to meeting and playing with drummers who have the finesse to churn and burn at the lowest levels imaginable and then can crank it up to the rafters when the time is right. :)
DanT