Smart A/V Control surface

[Ollie]

Bob and all,
What would make a control surface much easier to use then having to do it with the mouse? I am not up on other control surface, but I do like having tactile control of things and thought this surface looked pretty cool. This has lots of touch screen technology built in also. This currently is offered only for logic and Nuendo Like to get Bob's and everyone's thoughts

Tango Smart console
http://www.smartav.net/video.php

or their big brother control surfaces

Lo-Res video
http://www.smartav.net/images/downloads/smart_console_with_logic_chan_select_lores.mov

Hi-Res video
http://www.smartav.net/images/downloads/smart_console_with_logic_chan_select_hires.mov

[Cary B. Cornett]

I haven't seen a control surface yet that would eliminate the need to use a mouse or keyboard. Even for a control surface fully implemented in SAW, there is still the problem of the wide variety of plugins that would not be fully controlled by the surface.

Let's talk about "tactile" for a moment. I would define a fully tactile interface as one that could be used by a blind person, giving full access to all control functions with no need to see a visual display. I do not know of any DAW, especially one that is "native" (not needing proprietary DSP hardware to run), that can meet this requirement. I don't know any sighted person who ever operated a full console (analog or digital) in a fully "tactile" fashion, meaning without looking to see what he was doing. The main difference with a computer-based system is that you are not always looking at where your hands are.

I think what we are really looking for is greater ease (and sometimes speed) of use. I have mixed with a physical (analog) console. That's what I first learned on. I find that using SAW, even without a control surface, is easier than using the Big Iron.

My first suggestion for making SAW easier to "control" is to DUMP THE MOUSE and get a good trackball. I personally have been using my old Kensington Expert Mouse 4 trackball for more than 8 years. The few times I've had to work with a mouse I found it very awkward by comparison. At one point I thought that maybe using a Wacom tablet would be more intuitive, but I soon found out I would have to "re-train" myself for quite a while before it would be faster than using the trackball, and I haven't felt like making that investment yet.

I did pick up a Behringer BCF2000 a couple of years ago when I was working on some live shows, and it worked quite well for when it was necessary to have quick access to several faders and mutes. Other than hooking it up for testing when I first got it, I have not used it at all in my home studio. I just haven't wanted the physical faders badly enough to motivate me to set it up here. Still, if I DID want to use a control surface, all the BCF2000 lacks is a "scribble strip" display, and if I want one of those I might dig up a used Motormix (found sometimes for about $500).

At over $7000, the control you linked to is of no interest to me at all. If I had that kind of money to spend, I would put it into something that helps the SOUND, like better converters or some really good microphones.

[Dave Labrecque]

Bob and all,
What would make a control surface much easier to use then having to do it with the mouse? I am not up on other control surface, but I do like having tactile control of things and thought this surface looked pretty cool. This has lots of touch screen technology built in also. This currently is offered only for logic and Nuendo Like to get Bob's and everyone's thoughts

Tango Smart console
http://www.smartav.net/video.php

or their big brother control surfaces

Lo-Res video
http://www.smartav.net/images/downloads/smart_console_with_logic_chan_select_lores.mov

Hi-Res video
http://www.smartav.net/images/downloads/smart_console_with_logic_chan_select_hires.mov

Any idea how much $ this baby's gonna be?

[Naturally Digital]

Any idea how much $ this baby's gonna be?Yes, it's listed on the site.

[ffarrell]

I think what is needed is a multi touch 30" display and control screen.

for about 2 grand :)

fvf

[Bill Park]

try XKeys. They have a wide number of solutions.

[Carl G.]

Pretty lights but looks like an editing nightmare.

[Elea Vampas]

You are wrong and obviously assuming things. Try a search on Youtube and see how dead easy it is to edit in the supported platforms. FYI, although I don't own a Tango (yet) I have requested Smart AV to support SawStudio and SAC as I find it's a phenomenal piece of gear. It might be expensive but IMHO one should read more into it before emitting opinions. As for the price, well it's cheaper than many SSL and Euphonix gear, and just as good. It would be great to have a SAW/SAC implementation.

[Ian Alexander]

You are wrong and obviously assuming things.
Ouch.:)

[Elea Vampas]

Take a peak then...
:)

http://www.smartav.net/video.php

[Bill Park]

You are wrong and obviously assuming things. ... edit in the supported platforms. ...As for the price, well it's cheaper than many SSL and Euphonix gear, and just as good....

As a long time cynic, but also a careful reader of what things DO as opposed to what they promise to do in the future, I suggest that you might benefit from a little caution. If, as you say, it is amazing, then it will still be amazing in six months.

Let me tell you what I see. A controller, some dedicated buttons, and a touch screen. Okay. currently a Mackie Universal Control, a C-4, and a couple of standard screens will do the same job sans touch screen for about a third of the price or less, and the Mackie works today.

In terms of a touch screen and audio editing, that is useless and ergonomically horrible. Don't believe me? Hold your arm straight out from your body just a foot or so under shoulder height, with your finger pointed. Make a button pressing motion. Hold the arm out there for, oh, how about three minutes. About every 30 seconds or so, make that pushing motion with your arm and shoulder. Kinda painful, yeah? Now imagine doing this for 8 to 16 hours a day.

Another thing that you have to understand is that demos are designed to amaze you. If they didn't, they'd really suck as demos. Your job as a consumer is to look for what they DON'T tell you, what it can't do, what is not such a 'feature' as a liability. Don't be dazzled by the Bo Diddly Factor.

And on the subject of screens, I use three, though I've gone as few as two. One won't do it for me.

Now, let us address manufacturers promises for tomorrow... they only work out if the manufacturer can generate enough sales to convince the software guys to write support for their product. At $10k per controller, it will be a while before enough users of any given software will buy them in sufficient quantity to be able to convince the code guys to spend the many many hours it will take to make such a device work with their software. A lot of things that they claim to be 'automatic' and 'dedicated' will only work if the coders make it so, and more than one nice controller has disappeared because the coders didn't write support.

Oh, and in terms of support, many coders do a haphazard job, not actually fully implementing the controller but instead just doing enough work to be able to -claim- "support". Bob is known for doing a thorough and deep job of supporting the controller once he takes it into the family, but not everyone else does.

Also, never buy version 1 of anything. Version 1.5 is always so much better.

So I don't want to rain on your parade, I just suggest that if you take a little time and give the product a chance to mature, you will end up with either a better product than you think is now available, or you'll be glad that you did not buy. If you run out and buy today, you have a greater than 75% chance of ending up with an orphan. (Based upon my viewing of offered controllers verses successful controllers over the last 15 years).

[Elea Vampas]

I agree with your view in some aspects (the arm thing, with all due respect is quite debatable), but FYI this device wasn't built yesterday. It's been in the market for a couple of years now and quite a few PRO studios use it. To illustrate this, when this thread began about a year ago it supported Logic and Cubase. Now it supports many more platforms including ProTools and Pyramix. I guess you could say coders are supporting it.

Although I don't own one yet, I have a friend that does and he swears by it. Shame he lives too far away...

In any case, my point was one shouldn't say lightly that it's a nightmare for editing, especially if the OP is trying to gather some objective info. I agree with your point in being careful when buying novelties though. I also think that this unit is really something else, not just a common "console emulating" controller. It would be great if SAW/SAC gets implemented for it...

[Bob L]

I'm not sure I'm all excited to look at a screen filled with toyish looking graphics when I can sit and look at my choice of 3D looking shades graphics on my choice of small or large or multiple monitors.

The NEED to touch a switch or button as oppossed to clicking a mouse just never quite made any sense to me.

The speed of navigating around SAW/SAC interfaces is simply un-matched by any control surface once you master the interface.

The use for a few hands on faders is a valid argument for doing crossfades and perhaps riding the mix in real-time, but the rest is simply just not any improvement over a mouse or trackball directly interacting with a well defined screen and interface.

Any of the simple and inexpensive controller choices already supported get the job done well... but... . $10,000 simply makes me laugh. :)

Bob L

[Ian Alexander]

Take a peak then...
:)

http://www.smartav.net/video.php
Thanks for the link. I have no interest in the product. $10k will buy many enjoyable evenings with friends and fine ales or vacations with my family.

Here's what I meant by ouch. Getting people to appreciate your point of view is not likely to happen when you tell them, "You are wrong and obviously assuming things."

You quoted Carl as saying that, "it's a nightmare for editing." That's not what he wrote. He gave his opinion on how its operation "looks" to him. And yes, it makes a difference. Even if you're right, you won't convince anyone if you piss them off.:o

[Bill Park]

I agree with your view in some aspects (the arm thing, with all due respect is quite debatable), but FYI this device wasn't built yesterday. It's been in the market for a couple of years now and quite a few PRO studios use it. ...

The ergonomics of work done in the workplace is not new. You can debate the 'arm thing' with your doctor or chiropractor, not me. Moving from a simple wrist motion to full arm and hand motion is inefficient and induces stress. I know that the concept of touch screens has captured the fancy of many consumers, but in most locations in which they have been introduced, they have not been successful. And the resolution of the fingertip is not very fine when trying to hit specific points on a video screen. Okay for big buttons, not so good for editing points.

As for them being in wide usage, that isn't true. I've never seen one. That doesn't mean that no 'pro' has one, that just means that the studios in which I've been in NYC, Nashville, LA, or anywhere else that I've been don't happen to own one, and I do not hear them being discussed by the people that I know. The acceptance level, at this point, is not high.

Again, I'm not trying to trash the product. If they have been around for 'a couple of years', then I might expect better penetration into the market, and more support of the things that they claim will 'be supported'. I've wanted something like this for a long time, but so far all of the offerings have fallen short. The Mackie dXb was supposed to be all of these things too... debuted in 2004, still shipping as far as I know. Ever see one? The only owners that I know have mostly abandoned it as there are too many issues with it. It had two screens, and the promise of the ability to load in VSTs, and was an I/O solution, not just an editing one. The Tascam US2400.... never supported to its design. Mixed Logic. CM MotorMix. The Mackie UC, which is the best of a bad lot.

[Bill Park]

http://vintageking.com/Red-Leaf-Technology-TS-Control-32

[Mark Stebbeds]

And the resolution of the fingertip is not very fine when trying to hit specific points on a video screen. Okay for big buttons, not so good for editing points.


I know this to be true from the Trivia game on the bar at my favorite Mexican restaurant, even before my first drink. The item adjacent to the one you are trying to touch is frequently selected. And those touch screens at some airport self check-in kiosks? ....fugetaboutit.

Mark

[Elea Vampas]

My intention is certainly not to debate, especially with my doctor or any chiropractor. I have stretched for knobs on old analogue big consoles enough times to know what an arm stretch is and yet, I never suffered from tendinitis or stress. I do get your point and agree that on a supposed ergonomic device inefficient motion should be avoided, but precisely as I haven't handled the Tango controller I cannot state, at least as categorically as you do, if the screen is ergonomic or not or if it induces any stress or not. I promise I will pay serious attention to that bit whenever I get to have it demoed. Same goes for the resolution of the fingertip. Don't get me wrong, I honestly think those are very valid points to verify, and anyone willing to buy the unit should check if those features actually work or not.



As for them being in wide usage, that isn't true. I've never seen one. That doesn't mean that no 'pro' has one, that just means that the studios in which I've been in NYC, Nashville, LA, or anywhere else that I've been don't happen to own one, and I do not hear them being discussed by the people that I know. The acceptance level, at this point, is not high.

Would you please quote where I said they were "being in wide usage". I don't think I have ever said such thing. Also, with all due respect, the fact that YOU have never seen one proves what? I work regularly at very prestigious and respectable studios in London that don't have one...some of these studios don't even have an SSL4000...so what?


Again, I'm not trying to trash the product. If they have been around for 'a couple of years', then I might expect better penetration into the market, and more support of the things that they claim will 'be supported'.
By "They" I meant the Tango. SmartAV has been around for much longer than that. And there are many studios around the world that enjoy their consoles (mainly postprod I must say). A few years ago, their "PRO" series consoles were worth around 100k. You might think, as everybody seems to think here, "what a waste of cash" but I suspect you would find it normal if it was an SSL Matrix, AWS900, or similar...


I've wanted something like this for a long time, but so far all of the offerings have fallen short. The Mackie dXb was supposed to be all of these things too... debuted in 2004, still shipping as far as I know. Ever see one? The only owners that I know have mostly abandoned it as there are too many issues with it. It had two screens, and the promise of the ability to load in VSTs, and was an I/O solution, not just an editing one. The Tascam US2400.... never supported to its design. Mixed Logic. CM MotorMix. The Mackie UC, which is the best of a bad lot.

I agree 100***37; with you on that. Who knows, maybe the Tango is the answer to that? Although honestly, none of those controllers really compares to the Tango and its features, so maybe there's hope this time. Time will say.


Thanks for the link. I have no interest in the product. $10k will buy many enjoyable evenings with friends and fine ales or vacations with my family. Here's what I meant by ouch. Getting people to appreciate your point of view is not likely to happen when you tell them, "You are wrong and obviously assuming things." You quoted Carl as saying that, "it's a nightmare for editing." That's not what he wrote. He gave his opinion on how its operation "looks" to him. And yes, it makes a difference. Even if you're right, you won't convince anyone if you piss them off.

You might be right, but sincerely I didn't realize that getting people to appreciate one's point of view was likely to happen when one tells them, "Pretty lights but looks like an editing nightmare." especially when the OP writes:


Bob and all,
What would make a control surface much easier to use then having to do it with the mouse? I am not up on other control surface, but I do like having tactile control of things and thought this surface looked pretty cool.

And FYI I am not trying to convince anyone. I am just trying to find people that own a Tango to ask them some questions because I am THINKING about buying one for my studio. If I am THINKING about it, it means I can pay for it, so all the comments concerning "what a waste of cash", etc, are a waste of time for anyone like me, the OP, or anyone else that reads this thread because the title is "Smart A/V Control Surface". What impression would you have if you read a thread called "SSL Duality" where the OP asks something like "how do you guys feel I can integrate an SSL Duality into my system? I had a look at it and it seems pretty neat", and you notice that most replies are cons by people that actually never even saw an SSL Duality, let alone used it? "Nice Christmas tree in the dark, but looks like a pain to reach fader 72"...

I don't know if the Tango is what they say it is. I will certainly find out before paying for one (IF I finally decide to buy one). In any case, I still think that if they implement SAW/SAC that would be a great thing, regardless of how much it can make Bob laugh :)

I apologize if anyone felt hurt by my comments (or pissed off) and I hope I have clarified enough my position.


http://vintageking.com/Red-Leaf-Tech...-TS-Control-32 (http://vintageking.com/Red-Leaf-Technology-TS-Control-32)

Thanks for the link. Looks interesting on first sight.

[Leadfoot]

Could you please not buy it and just use SAC with a mouse and send me the extra $9500.00?

[Carl G.]

Thanks for the link. I have no interest in the product. $10k will buy many enjoyable evenings with friends and fine ales or vacations with my family.

Here's what I meant by ouch. Getting people to appreciate your point of view is not likely to happen when you tell them, "You are wrong and obviously assuming things."

You quoted Carl as saying that, "it's a nightmare for editing." That's not what he wrote. He gave his opinion on how its operation "looks" to him. And yes, it makes a difference. Even if you're right, you won't convince anyone if you them off.:o

Thanks, Ian. Yes, I've viewed their nice demo video and I never said the unit was an editing nightmare - I just simply gave my viewership (of their demo) opionion that "It _looks_ like an editing nightmare". Maybe I should have added, "IMHO" to clarify. I would like to add though.... my coach in high school use to punish guys by having them hold their arms repetitiously ... (I never had too:)) So why would I want to ergonomically *punish* myself while operating a screen touch DAW? :) :)

[Bill Park]

http://www.bella-usa.com/

The problem with video specific editing setups is the jog/shuttle is designed to always return to 0:0.

In the same vein, the XKeys controllers that I mentioned before aren't bad. I have not tried the gaming keyboard that was mentioned elsewhere. Something that was in a standard format keyboard with layers to switch between editing and standard keyboard, maybe with a built in trackball, would be nice. The main advantage that I found in working with RADAR over the DAWs was that it had a dedicated labeled keyboard instead of clumsy multiple keystrokes that we have to try to remember.

[Bill Park]

The DV keyboard can be customized. Even the Jog and Scroll wheels can be customized....
My favorite feature on this baby, is that it chases whatever program you are in. ....

You've customized a SAW specific setup? Control and Alt key codes are easily added to the customizing?

I figured that it would chase, but the question that I have is can you layer it... so that if you need to go in and type some information you can hot switch the keyboard from dedicated to standard?

Is it 'programmed' by turning on 'record', pressing the key you want to customize, type the keystrokes wanted to be assigned to that key, press the key again? Or is it more complex?

Looks like I've got some digging to do for the new writing room.

As I said below, I like the dedicated keyboard of RADAR. Creating something similar would be nice.