OT: OK Let Just talk Mother Boards & SAC

[HapHazzard]

OK Warren open the can of worms (http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showpost.php?p=93984&postcount=9) so let get down to it.

We all know that SAC IS our best bet to having what we've always wanted.
A virtual console array.

The goal:

Have SAC running on a rock solid PC that we can still get parts for at least 5 years. My is a P5WD2 (http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?modelmenu=2&model=550&l1=3&l2=11&l3=184&l4=0) and a OLD RME DIGI9652 PCI. It runs SAC nicely but it's almost time for a rebuild,

So.. Where is the bottle neck on the MB. Chip set? CPU? Memory?

Now Dominic had some good points (http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showpost.php?p=93985&postcount=10) and is along the lines of what I was looking into.

Asus P5E (http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=572&l4=0&model=1873&modelmenu=2) and the Asus P5E Deluxe (http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=640&l4=0&model=2219&modelmenu=1) seem to have what it takes. Both can take a P4 (if you can find'm) up the the Core 2 Extreme. Both have PCIe 2.0 but the spec I'm look at is the chip set.

(From ASUS) The Intel® X38 Express Chipset is the latest chipset designed to support 8GB of dual-channel DDR3 1333/1066/800 architecture, 1333/1066/800 FSB (Front Side Bus), dual PCIe 2.0 x 16 graphics and multi-core CPUs. It especially includes Intel® Fast Memory Access technology that significantly optimizes the use of available memory bandwidth and reduces the latency of the memory accesses.


(from ASUS)The Intel® X48 Express Chipset is the latest chipset designed to support 8GB of dual-channel DDR2 DDR2 1200* / 1066 / 800 / 667 architecture, 1600 / 1333 / 1066 / 800 FSB (Front Side Bus), Dual PCI Express 2.0 x16 graphics and multi-core CPUs. With the specially included Intel® Fast Memory Access technology, available memory bandwidth usage is optimized and memory access latency is reduced - allowing faster memory speeds.

It seems that most of what we need is with these chip sets (link to Intel X38) (http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/chipsets/x38/x38-overview.htm) (link to Intel X48) (http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/chipsets/x48/x48-overview.htm) ASUS MB cost at NewEgg 183 - 254 USD

Other Mother Boards that would fall in?

Who can explain if we can't get P4's what is the next choice and how you we use it. Force Single CPU?

Hap

[Warren]

Thats why I went with XEON Nocona's but I seem to have some sort of bottleneck somewhere ECC, RAM, MB, etc. :confused:

IWILL DH800 MB 800 FSB, DUAL XEON 3.2 Gig
4 Gig DDR2 ram
MATROX P750 3 head video
SATA raptor 10Krpm drives

Seems OK but at this point I am not sure I could fully recommend it, not until I have ditermined if it can be fixed somehow.

Starter of the storm :o

[Leadfoot]

Interesting, I did the same thing you did after I read this thread. I went to Asus site and checked out the latest greatest chipsets and boards.

Then I got to thinking, after all these years of building computers, and I started from knowing nothing back in the early days of dos, to being a completely self taught master by spending endless hours of my precious time for years, only to become the ultimate consumer of soon to be useless boxes of old computer ****, and a brain full of info that should be worth millions, but is actually costing me money.

In less than six months, what they are saying is the greatest right now, will be "not good enough". I personally can't deal with it any more.

As much as I like technology, the more I hate it. I sometimes feel like they should pay me to figure out how to use all this stuff they keep flooding us with.

Back to your point, I say just build a decent box that does what you need now, you will never future proof (especially 5 years worth) anything.

Also, you will never be able to define a system that works perfectly for all situations. Saw/Sac or otherwise. There will always be glitches, there are to many variables.

Life's to short, trust me. We're getting more tracks and capabilities than ever before in the history of recorded sound. If it's not enough now, when will it be?

Tony

[Warren]

Interesting, I did the same thing you did after I read this thread. I went to Asus site and checked out the latest greatest chipsets and boards.

Then I got to thinking, after all these years of building computers, and I started from knowing nothing back in the early days of dos, to being a completely self taught master by spending endless hours of my precious time for years, only to become the ultimate consumer of soon to be useless boxes of old computer ****, and a brain full of info that should be worth millions, but is actually costing me money.

In less than six months, what they are saying is the greatest right now, will be "not good enough". I personally can't deal with it any more.

As much as I like technology, the more I hate it. I sometimes feel like they should pay me to figure out how to use all this stuff they keep flooding us with.

Back to your point, I say just build a decent box that does what you need now, you will never future proof (especially 5 years worth) anything.

Also, you will never be able to define a system that works perfectly for all situations. Saw/Sac or otherwise. There will always be glitches, there are to many variables.

Life's to short, trust me. We're getting more tracks and capabilities than ever before in the history of recorded sound. If it's not enough now, when will it be?

Tony

Good points Tony

I just want the track counts I can get to be more stable with lower latency and buffer settings.

[mako]

>snip< Force Single CPU?

Hap

A few weeks ago while getting SAC ready for a festival, I noticed it was having some screen redrawing problems.
After checking a few things I decided to check if it was set for "one cpu".
Sure enough, it was. I deleted the relevent info, restarted and all was fine.

It seems, along the way, that Bob has found a fix for this old problem.

Thanks Bob.

mako

[DominicPerry]

I'll chip in with some more detail tomorrow when I have a bit more time. But I would avoid the P4 now - my recommendation is the Core 2 CPUs, specifically the E8400 and E8500. These, newer chips have an improved instruction set, overclock better and produce less heat.

Dominic

[HapHazzard]

Then I got to thinking, after all these years of building computers, and I started from knowing nothing back in the early days of dos, to being a completely self taught master by spending endless hours of my precious time for years, only to become the ultimate consumer of soon to be useless boxes of old computer ****, and a brain full of info that should be worth millions, but is actually costing me money. Tony

True Tony

IIe and a 8088 is when I got started.
(Still have the IIe...working)

It will never come to an end,:( but for those who don't know, it would be a wealth of info to read of our trials and loses.

Me, I have 4 PC's running at the house (one at 15+ years old) and I'll continue to use them until the Blue Screen of death happens. But with this band asking me to go out and do shows with a virtual rig I thought that it might be time to recharge my brain a little.

Hap

[Bob L]

For now... the Core 2 Duo chips seem to be the way to go... at least in my experience... the dual cpus will work very well as you load down the system... you will find that you can load the engine all the way into the 90% range and feel no slow down in the displays or response to adjusting the controls.

Hyperthreaded cpus are NOT the way to go... they have proven extremely unstable.

Bob L

[HapHazzard]

For now... the Core 2 Duo chips seem to be the way to go... at least in my experience... the dual cpus will work very well as you load down the system... you will find that you can load the engine all the way into the 90% range and feel no slow down in the displays or response to adjusting the controls.

Hyperthreaded cpus are NOT the way to go... they have proven extremely unstable.

Bob L
There we go and it might account to why my P4HT give me such a Grrrrrrrr of a time.

Thanks
Hap

[Bob L]

Just turn off the HT with the /onecpu option in the boot.ini file... that is documented in my Windows XP Tweaks.

Bob L

[HapHazzard]

Just turn off the HT with the /onecpu option in the boot.ini file... that is documented in my Windows XP Tweaks.

Bob LWill Do!
Hap

[Steve L]

Ditto Bob with the Core 2 Duo's.
The recent trial with MB Productions has ended with (I hope) complete
satisfaction running a 3.0 G Core 2 and 2 G Buffalo DDR2 /800 on and ECS MB.
Needed for the 2 PCI and 2 RME HDSP9652 cards.
They are running a 40 channel monitor mix setup and except for the RME's locking to 32k (windows sounds) everything is working perfectly at around 36%. I locked the 2 cards together with word clock and then let the ADA's do ADAT sync to get the 40 channels+. As for now everything is working great.....My new Profire 2626 is due in and I will set up a new demo system on my laptop (Lenovo R61i) to show the masses....
I have used an Intel DG35 CE mb with success and as it only has one PCI
will go for the ECS till something better comes along.
The rack cases I got from another SAW forum regular are working great,
the only problem is everyone wants one now!!


Steve L.
Audio-Video Electronics
Mountain View Recording
richmond, KY

[Bob L]

Well... that's all good news... and if everyone wants to buy one NOW... that's one problem I can deal with. :)

Send them over.

Bob L

[HapHazzard]

U2 rack height but only 13.5" deep (http://www.plinkusa.net/web2014.htm)

Still a bit pricey (195 USD)

The Bigger the cheaper (http://www.plinkusa.net/web4210.htm)

At 56 USD I can stand the 2 extra spaces.

Hap

[mycorn]

thnx for those links Hap

good find,,,

[txshonk]

I been using one of those 4 space server chassis for bout 2 years now. Yeah its bigger then I wanted, but I have 5 hard drives in it and a CoolIt CPU cooler mounted in it. So it definitely has some upside beside price.

[HapHazzard]

Yep big and cheap! Hap
http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2&pictureid=2

[txshonk]

So you got me curious with the 2 PC rack chassis. One just back up or are you running 2 systems?

[HapHazzard]

So you got me curious with the 2 PC rack chassis. One just back up or are you running 2 systems?When I first started with SAW I had one for SSL. The other had Reason, Toontrack, Amplitube and Guitar Rig for session guys. I treated one like a tape machine and the other like a amp or a drum set.

Now that was then and now I sold the Tascam and one of the rack mounts (http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showpost.php?p=79210&postcount=20). Replaced the one with a Laptop (much more mobile) and the other is getting a overhaul of a new mother board (:rolleyes: where did I read about that?).

Note: with SAC I didn't need the Tascam anymore. More room in the Subraru.

Hap
PS haven't found any MB that I could trust except for the P5E Deluxe.

[txshonk]

I agree with you - a P5 is on my list of things to do over the next few months to upgrade my system.

I currently have a Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3 board. Hind sight being 20/20 Runs stable with the exception that the onboard RAID array dissappears sometimes. The other problem is I have a Q6600 processor in it overclocked to 3.24gHz and once it boots it runs solid. However sometimes at startup it doesnt make it to booting window and resets the BIOS to not be overclocked.

So glad to see the P5 recommended on yet another forum.

[mycorn]

i'v been looking at asus P5's till i'm crosseyed

what are your openions on on-board i945 video
vs. a ad-on video card?

having seen the video bottleneck this is a concern to me

is the question a non-issue once you get to a e8400 cpu?

thnx
mike

[Bob L]

As I have mentioned before... with the dual cpu, you will not see any video display slowdowns as you load the engine... it is designed to split the meters and display from the engine load.

With a single cpu, after the load reaches 50%, the display threads drop to the background to keep the engine from glitching.

Bob L

[mycorn]

are there any advantages to either
onboard or seperate video card

other than the obvious cost factor...
and taking a slot

is there a video card mfg. to avoid?

thnx

[DominicPerry]

The main reason to avoid on-board video cards in the past has been that they used to share memory - i.e main memory. I expect that modern on-board video cards have their own memory now.
I would think that there was actually an advantage to an on-board card for SAC/SAW these days, as it will consume less power and therefore also generate less heat than a PCI / PCIe card. But you will have to remember that you will probably only be able to run a single monitor, or at most two, at limited resolution, and that it won't be powerful enough to run games or graphics programs.

Dominic

[Bob L]

Many of the onboard video now comes with dual outputs... and they should work just fine.

One manufacturer that generally causes concern with low latency performance is nVidia... why... seems like they hog the bus timing so they get great scores in the video game speed testing programs.

I have had good luck with Matrox cards and most ATI cards.

Bob L

[mycorn]

i had seen nvida mentioned in some other audio forums...

and there's not but one game being played
on this machine

virtual flying faders

and i'm thinking i can spare 64meg out of 2 gig of ram

did i understand correctly reading this morning
that XP will not utilize more than 3 gig of ram???
[i.e. (2) 2gig sticks is 1/4 wasted?]

i got a bad case of info sponge

[Bruce Callaway]

did i understand correctly reading this morning
that XP will not utilize more than 3 gig of ram???
[i.e. (2) 2gig sticks is 1/4 wasted?]

This is correct in my case unless someone here knows a smart way of changing this. To me, it is no big deal as 4 gig RAM is not that expensive and can be purchased in matching sticks which will ensure that you have no problems from mismatched RAM. I have seen servers develop strange behaviours due to that problem.

[Wam3]

The missing gig is getting used up by other devices ...... good info here ...
http://blog.tylerholmes.com/2008/03/and-then-win-xp-sp2-wouldn-give-me-4-gb.html

W

[Bob L]

And more than a gig can go missing if you have other hardware boards installed that map memory space. Apparently it starts mapping device memory areas from the 4 gig mark down and starts to cut into available physical ram if installed.

In general, we never did notice this with 2 gigs of ram... but with 4... some of it gets stepped on.

Bob L

[HapHazzard]

OK,
So far a MB that has X38 or X48 chip set, a Core 2 Duo is favored.

onecpu written into the boot.ini

2 gigs min. but with 4 gigs it get interesting.

The P5E Deluxe does not offer on board video so a card will be necessary. No sweat, I'm not after video quality, just screens.

PCIe (ouch, but if I'm going to get down to the .7 ms buffer)

Getting close
I'm going to try Tsxhonk's stress test (http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showpost.php?p=94139&postcount=24) to how my present rig stands up.

Hap

[Bob L]

I would leave the dual cpu for a core two duo... use its power to keep the meters, displays and user interaction from bogging down on heavily loaded sessions.

The /onecpu was suggested for an older HyperThreaded P4 system.

Bob L

[kruntz]

I would leave the dual cpu for a core two duo... use its power to keep the meters, displays and user interaction from bogging down on heavily loaded sessions.

Where are network threads allocated?
Would a headless (no display, no keyboard, no mouse) stage mixing engine benefit from a Core 2 Duo?

[HapHazzard]

I would leave the dual cpu for a core two duo... use its power to keep the meters, displays and user interaction from bogging down on heavily loaded sessions.

The /onecpu was suggested for an older HyperThreaded P4 system.

Bob L
My mistake. I meant Core 2 Duo:o
/onecpu not needed but force single at SAC?
Hap

[Bob L]

Again I ask... why are you forcing single cpu? Are you getting better performance? No need to do that with a good 2 cpu system, unless you are having stability issues.

Bob L

[HapHazzard]

Again I ask... why are you forcing single cpu? Are you getting better performance? No need to do that with a good 2 cpu system, unless you are having stability issues.

Bob LGreat That's what I needed to know for sure.
Thanks
Hap