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Warren
12-11-2008, 11:28 AM
Hi Bob:

I remember a post way back when, where you stated something about you were still trying to figure out how to get the effects GUI and control over to the remote.

I have seen at least sometimes your native plugs show up but without control or meters. (It’s functioning that way maybe a fault in my setup)

I was wondering about how the program FX-MAX FX-TELEPORT does this?
In their instance they somehow send audio, full control and process responsibility over to the remote.

I am aware that you can't decompile it to find out.

Have you had any progress yet in this area?

Chris

Bob L
12-11-2008, 01:48 PM
These other apps generally scan and send all mouse and keyboard data as well as screen data across the network... that's no mystery... this is not an efficient method by any means and not one I am inclined to copy.

I am trying to find a much more efficient way to do it... and also realize that the plugs are not directly under SAC control as far as mouse clicks and screen displays go... each plug is its own unit... independent of the main app... so it gets a little trickier...

And... realize the extra complexity of the host machine being backstage as the main Monitor position... now if the FOH remote wants to look at and adjust some plugins... you cannot just pop that plugin up on the host machine at the same time because that would then interfere with the Monitor mixer... so the plugin which is on the host machine has to become active, but invisible, and then be translated out to the FOH remote... but the plugin will only respond to keyboard and mouse input from the host machine... which has to come from the remote... but if a window is hidden in Windows, keyboard and mouse input is blocked by the OS itself... and, the plugin itself cannot just be duplicated and operated on the remote machine, because the host machine is the only one handling audio data directly... it gets very complex. :)

Bob L

Warren
12-11-2008, 02:30 PM
These other apps generally scan and send all mouse and keyboard data as well as screen data across the network... that's no mystery... this is not an efficient method by any means and not one I am inclined to copy.

I am trying to find a much more efficient way to do it... and also realize that the plugs are not directly under SAC control as far as mouse clicks and screen displays go... each plug is its own unit... independent of the main app... so it gets a little trickier...

And... realize the extra complexity of the host machine being backstage as the main Monitor position... now if the FOH remote wants to look at and adjust some plugins... you cannot just pop that plugin up on the host machine at the same time because that would then interfere with the Monitor mixer... so the plugin which is on the host machine has to become active, but invisible, and then be translated out to the FOH remote... but the plugin will only respond to keyboard and mouse input from the host machine... which has to come from the remote... but if a window is hidden in Windows, keyboard and mouse input is blocked by the OS itself... and, the plugin itself cannot just be duplicated and operated on the remote machine, because the host machine is the only one handling audio data directly... it gets very complex. :)

Bob L

Thanks Bob:

I did not think it would be any small task, or that FX-Teleport was even a solution, just was hoping that a fix might be at hand within the next few revisions. But at present SAC far exceeds my wildest expectations for a software solution to a console replacement.

Thanks for the insight.

Chris

kruntz
12-11-2008, 05:06 PM
... so the plugin which is on the host machine has to become active, but invisible, and then be translated out to the FOH remote... ... it gets very complex. :)
Bob L

Bob,
I think that *your* plugins are really good.
Would you consider an interim solution with only the plugins you developed "adapted" in a way that allows them to be used on the host machine from any remote?
I'm just thinking at a "server" plugin (without user interface) and a client visual user interface with a RPC like client-server communication mechanism...

Bob L
12-11-2008, 05:34 PM
That has definitely been part of the research conversation here... but I am still hopeful for more than that.

Bob L

Rick Stansby
12-14-2008, 02:48 PM
I just read this thread, and I want to make sure I understand. Are you saying that I can't adjust reverb time from song to song if I use a laptop (remote) to control the onstage host computer?

AudioAstronomer
12-14-2008, 07:18 PM
I just read this thread, and I want to make sure I understand. Are you saying that I can't adjust reverb time from song to song if I use a laptop (remote) to control the onstage host computer?

You can. Use VNC for this kind of control. It works rather well.

Bob L
12-14-2008, 07:34 PM
Rick... that is correct at the moment... but you can easily setup a few different verbs with different settings on different aux sends and switch that way for different songs... and you can use scene changes to do the switch also... across multiple inputs or just one input.

Bob L

Warren
12-14-2008, 08:32 PM
You can. Use VNC for this kind of control. It works rather well.

You are correct Robert, and while using the remote setup I have tried a few variations of VNC, Remote Network and others. All do indeed work fine for the moment but there bandwidth is higher than is acceptable for me. If Bob or shall I say when Bob introduces remote effects control, (without third party S/W) I believe at least for me system stability as well as even better functionality will be available for all of us.

My .02

Chris

bassthumper
12-14-2008, 09:05 PM
You are correct Robert, and while using the remote setup I have tried a few variations of VNC, Remote Network and others. All do indeed work fine for the moment but there bandwidth is higher than is acceptable for me. If Bob or shall I say when Bob introduces remote effects control, (without third party S/W) I believe at least for me system stability as well as even better functionality will be available for all of us.

My .02

Chris


I agree with you guys here. I have attempted VNC and others but the bandwidth issue is not one I am willing to risk in a must go situation.

Tonight because of the remote issues, I put the Reverberator on an aux and Greg was able to control it, however the one thing he and I both like to view is the Spectrum and that thus far cannot be done from the remote.

On another side of things what I would like to see is the ability to have a machine at startup to default open the TCP/IP host. Greg and I have been toying with the idea of making our host machine a behind closed doors no access machine. In lay terms we want to remove the monitor mouse and keyboard and have the machine tucked away and run all remote. This would be a great configuration in our church due to space and layout of how the equipment has had to be installed.

Rick Stansby
12-14-2008, 10:35 PM
Rick... that is correct at the moment... but you can easily setup a few different verbs with different settings on different aux sends and switch that way for different songs... and you can use scene changes to do the switch also... across multiple inputs or just one input.

Bob L

Thanks for clearing that up. I am glad to see that "at the moment".

mycorn
12-15-2008, 05:02 AM
host machine a behind closed doors no access machine. In lay terms we want to remove the monitor mouse and keyboard and have the machine tucked away and run all remote. This would be a great configuration in our church due to space and layout of how the equipment has had to be installed.

+1 on this idea

i fiddled with it for a while and couldnt get it to work

is this possible bob?

mh

Bob L
12-15-2008, 07:20 AM
Once you get a session properly setup, you can control most everything from the remotes... but for now you will have to setup your plugins from the host...

For now, it's very easy to setup duplicated channels with different plugins patched and just mute and unmute them to switch major effects settings.

The main channel comps, gates and eq should handle most everything you need to do anyway... patch a few different length verbs into the auxes, one short, one long, one with pre-daly... etc... then control everything from the remote auxes if you need to switch around.

I am working on some remote plugin solutions... but if you read my messages, you can see that it is quite a complex problem.

Bob L

mycorn
12-15-2008, 12:03 PM
yeah-
i understand the uphill battle-
i'm already doing the multi aux thing

i figured that out strait away as a workaround
and my mix "templets" load the rev. and your DDL plugs

i'v got my machines going strait to SAC on bootup

and i did read the part about commandline loading of a mix file

but-

i'v never been able to get it to boot
into host TCP-IP mode so i dont need the host
keyboard or monitor set up

[it doesnt seem to remember that setting as default]

while it is certainly not a big deal for me
as my rig rarly stays anywhere overnite
[i cant hardly spell "installe"]
it'l come in handy if the power blinks befor i get
a UPS in the rack

thnx
mh

PepoElMaster
01-05-2009, 06:56 AM
Hello people.

Germán is my name, writing from Argentina here, this is my first post.

I found SAC recently looking on the internet for digital mixer and found something even better.

I have been away from home this past weeks, so I haven't had the chance to really test the SAC Remote yet. So I have a question.

The problem you are trying to solve is to actually control remotely the plugins hosted in the main computer?
Or this feauture is already on SAC Remote and you are trying to have each plugins GUI availavle on the SAC Remote?


Im asking this as I think GUI is not that important on live mixing situations... Its nice... but necesary in my opinion, just having some ramdom looking Knobs with the parameter name will do for me :).

Bob L
01-05-2009, 07:11 AM
Yes... I have left more detailed messages about this issue and some of its complexities.

In the end... I would like to have the original plugins running on the host machine to be displayed intact on the remotes with full use of all controls remotely... there are many issues with making that happen... but I am confident I will find a solution soon. :)

Bob L

PepoElMaster
01-05-2009, 08:32 AM
Yes is see it as a complex process to make.

Im not familiar with the VST, DX or SAW plugins architecture, I only program web-based apps...

But I supouse they use some kind of template for the GUI... can't this templete be read from the DLL file of the plugin?

If that's so, you can get the host (SAC) to send the templates over the net to the SAC Remote when a plugin is loaded. And the parameters values everytime the SAC Remote opens the plugin or make a change on the parameters.

Then you just need the SAC Remote to render the template so the GUI looks like it should...

Offcourse... this would work for GUIs that have knob like or fader like controls... but more complex controls as seen in new "fancy looking" plugins will be harder to implement...

The parameters value coul be sent over virtual MIDI conections... it would be like an automatization or external controler implementation...

Just trowing some Ideas.. tought I think this must have been considered already :p


Sorry about my english there must be a lot of mistakes there.

Bob L
01-05-2009, 09:01 AM
Unfortunately... its more difficult than that... the plugins are their own apps and the control parameters and what the values mean are unique to each one and not necessarily available outside the plugin app itself.

Also... when a plugin is onscreen... mouse and keyboard controls are passed directly to the plugin and SAC has no direct control of this process... and to make things worse... I am trying to allow remotes to popup plugins on the remote screen without affecting the host screen display and vice versa... to say the least... this becomes more complex the more you look into it. :)

Bob L

mycorn
01-05-2009, 02:48 PM
my wish list is really short

if you could put the 5 band eq [like the channel]
on the outputs [even just 'out 1' in each mixer] so it didnt need an insert-

the only other thing i'd really need would be controle
of the delay _time_ on a single instance of your DDL
[so i dont need 5 of 'em]

you can do about everything else
with channel sends and the return volumn

i'm sure this is still a big bandaid...

did anybody mention
YOU ROCK
today?

mike

Bob L
01-05-2009, 05:03 PM
I'm currently working on hooking the plugins and all their parameter settings into the scenes... this would then allow you to change the delay time or anything else in any other plugin with a scene change.

Bob L

mycorn
01-05-2009, 10:36 PM
that'l work

the only major "complaint" i'v heard from
my buds and visiting engineers is not being able to
tune the PA from FOH

is coding the EQ onto the outs a major?

even knowing my rig pretty good
i'd still agree

obviously EQing an empty room
and mixing to a packed house are 2 different things

it'd be nice not to have to make a trip
to the stage to whack a bit more mid from the house
or take the 6.3 out of the deaf singers mix
the 4th time you'v turned it up

thnx!!
mh

Bob L
01-06-2009, 01:30 AM
I agree... am working on a solution.

I may add graphics to the output section... we'll see... yes... it is a major code update.

Bob L

mycorn
01-06-2009, 06:16 AM
as always...

thnx for allllllll you do