Laptop - Firewire vs. PCIMIA

[Rick Stansby]

Hello all.

I am new here, but I have searched the forums for a while to learn about SAC.

This question has probably been addressed before, so point me to any threads that cover it. Or just tell me what you know in this thread, if you prefer.

I want to set up SAC on a laptop. I want to start with a simple 8x8 interface and use this as a micro mixer with all the bells and whistles on small shows. I hope to upgrade to more channels down the road. I currently use several analog boards, as well as Yamaha digital boards (I own an LS9-32, but use an M7 frequently when working for other sound companies). My use is strictly live sound reinforcement, no multitrack recording or studio use. My current laptop has a 4-pin Firewire port.

For some reason I am leaning towards a firewire interface. I don't want an extra interface box with ADAT i/o between my laptop and an ADA8000 or similar unit.

Of course there are PCIMIA interfaces as well, and they fit in the computer, so maybe that wouldn't be so bad.

Can anyone tell me why PCIMIA would be better (or worse) than firewire?

Thanks in advance.

[DominicPerry]

Hi Rick,

The general consensus is that the RME PCMCIA approach is the most stable and reliable for this purpose. You can choose between a PCMCIA Cardbus card or a newer PCIExpress card. Either way, you attach a Digiface or Multiface to the end. RME also make a MADI solution with 64 channels attached to a PCIExpress card. Expensive, but good.

Firewire devices are being used successfully but they tend to be a little less stable. The RME Fireface 400 & 800 are notable here. Other Firewire devices are often a bit more flaky.

The PCMCIA devices made by Digigram and the like are not really suitable - Digigram doesn't make much effort with their drivers. Echo used to make a PCMCIA card for the Layla and Gina; these are now discontinued and were not always reliable, as reported here (I think MikeBuzz used one for a while, with plenty of problems).

The reason PCMCIA or PCIExpress is better than firewire is that you are plugging straight into the computer's bus, and, especially with the RME cards, this presents no CPU load, whereas Firewire, as well as having lower bandwidth, tends to require more CPU intervention.

Hope this helps.

Any other questions or clarification, just ask.

Dominic

[Rick Stansby]

Hi Rick,

The general consensus is that the RME PCMCIA approach is the most stable and reliable for this purpose.

Thanks for the info. I was really tempted by the idea of firewire directly from the preamps to the laptop, but it sounds like this is a situation where you get what you pay for. The nice thing about the RME is that once I buy the PCIMIA card and digiface I will have enough ADAT inputs to upgrade to more channels for little money.
There is really no reason for me to "reinvent the wheel".



You can choose between a PCMCIA Cardbus card or a newer PCIExpress card.

What are the differences between these? [edit: now I see that the digiface has 3 ADAT I/O ports, while the Multiface II has only 1, I also see that the two cards you mentioned are a PCI card and a PCIMIA card. Only the PCIMIA card will work in a laptop.]

Can both of them support a second digiface/multiface so that I can upgrade beyond 24 inputs. I know I asked about a small 8 channel micromixer, but I tend to use 32+ channel mixers, so if this pans out I really want to be on the right upgrade path towards 32 or 40 channels.

I'm off to the RME site to look for these answers myself.

Thanks again.

[Rick Stansby]

So the two questions I'm left with are:

1) Can I use 2@digiface with the PCIMIA Cardbus card. [edit: Looking at the cardbus card and the digiface I see that they only have one port each, so I assume I need two PCIMIA cards to go beyond 24 channels of I/O]

2) What channel count can I expect to run on a Gateway CX210S with windows XP, and a "Genuine Intel (R) CPU T2050 @ 1.60 GHz with .99 GB of RAM" I think it is a Core Duo processor.

[Bob L]

Rick,

Another vote here for the non-firewire devices... especially with 4 pin connectors... these have been known to be extremely fickle in my experioence... and I have seen many a show go down because someone bumped the cable and lost the connection... at which point Windows will drop the driver until you unplug and replug... not good.

You can only use 1 DigiFace or Multiface box per card... so unless your laptop has multiple slots you will be stopped at 24 i/o.

This is also another good reason to consider a small micro atx motherboard system... not much bigger than the laptop, but will allow multiple rme pci or pcie cards inside, which can then get you 48 chans of i/o or more with the new 32 chan RayDat cards.

Bob L

[Craig Allen]

1) Can I use 2@digiface with the PCIMIA Cardbus card. [edit: Looking at the cardbus card and the digiface I see that they only have one port each, so I assume I need two PCIMIA cards to go beyond 24 channels of I/O]

You are correct here


2) What channel count can I expect to run on a Gateway CX210S with windows XP, and a "Genuine Intel (R) CPU T2050 @ 1.60 GHz with .99 GB of RAM" I think it is a Core Duo processor.

I used to do 16 channels with SAW in live mode (similar to SAC) with a Multiface and a 1.6G Centrino processor with 512M RAM without breaking much of a sweat, so 24 or more probably won't be a problem with it. But the only way to be sure it to test it out with the demo.

[Rick Stansby]

I used to do 16 channels with SAW in live mode (similar to SAC) with a Multiface and a 1.6G Centrino processor with 512M RAM without breaking much of a sweat, so 24 or more probably won't be a problem with it.

Thanks. I have a feeling 24 channels will be plenty with this laptop (and it only has one PC card slot anyway (IIRC) so 24 channels would be the max on this machine). If I really go up to 40 channels I'll probably get a rack-mount PC anyhow.


the only way to be sure it to test it out with the demo.
I need the RME interface too, right?

[Rick Stansby]

Thanks Bob.

Good point about the 4 pin jack being easy to knock out. I hadn't even considered that. This type of forum is great, because in 2 hours I have been saved from wasting money and time on the firewire interface.

Right now I'm thinking of trying out the software on my current laptop. With plans of upgrading to a rackmount PC if all goes well.


Rick,

Another vote here for the non-firewire devices... especially with 4 pin connectors... these have been known to be extremely fickle in my experioence... and I have seen many a show go down because someone bumped the cable and lost the connection... at which point Windows will drop the driver until you unplug and replug... not good.

You can only use 1 DigiFace or Multiface box per card... so unless your laptop has multiple slots you will be stopped at 24 i/o.

This is also another good reason to consider a small micro atx motherboard system... not much bigger than the laptop, but will allow multiple rme pci or pcie cards inside, which can then get you 48 chans of i/o or more with the new 32 chan RayDat cards.

Bob L

[Craig Allen]

I need the RME interface too, right?

To test it fully, yes. But you could download the demo just to see how it loads the CPU using the stock soundcard. However, you probably won't be able to get the buffers down low enough to make it feel live.

[Rick Stansby]

To test it fully, yes. But you could download the demo just to see how it loads the CPU using the stock soundcard. However, you probably won't be able to get the buffers down low enough to make it feel live.

I've already got the demo on my laptop so I'll try that. Hopefully 2 channels doesn't bog things down much. Thanks.

[Craig Allen]

I don't think it'll even make it break a sweat.

[Rick Stansby]

Thanks.

[DominicPerry]

What are the differences between these? [edit: now I see that the digiface has 3 ADAT I/O ports, while the Multiface II has only 1, I also see that the two cards you mentioned are a PCI card and a PCIMIA card. Only the PCIMIA card will work in a laptop.]



Rick,

I wasn't clear enough - my terminology was wrong, and there is some ambiguity in the naming. So here we go..........

There are four kinds of cards to attach to the Digiface (or Multiface).
1) PCI Card - this goes inside a desktop in a PCI slot called HDSP PCI Card.
2) PCIe Card - this goes inside a desktop in a PCIe slot, irritatingly RME call it HDSPe PCI-card
3) PCMCIA Card, also called Cardbus Card - goes in an older style laptop in the PCMCIA Type II slot. Equivalent to PCI in a desktop.
4) PCExpress Card, goes in a newer laptop, called an HDSPe ExpressCard by RME. Equivalent to PCIe in a desktop.

So it you're buying for a laptop, you have two choices - just make sure you get the right one, as the wrong one simply won't physically fit.

Dominic

[DominicPerry]

An internal soundcard is probably only going to give you 6x1024 buffers, which is way short of what you need to do live work. But that is true even of really powerful machines, the internal soundcard and its drivers won't give you a clue about what latency you'll get with a decent soundcard, but it will give you some indication as to how many channels you can run - you need to assign the same mono or stereo input to all the channels and send then to the single stereo output - you'll need to pull the output fader down a long way as you are feeding the same signal 20,30,40 times to the output so it will overload.

Looks like a T2050 is an early Core Duo processor. I can't tell you how many channels you'll run, but my P4M (laptop Pentium 4 processor - predecessor to yours) runs about 40 channels with actve EQ, gate and comp on all of them. When you do your test, make sure you actually use some EQ, rather than just turning it on. You can set a channel up as you like and then Alt-Right click and Store All to Memory - Cell01, then select a bunch of channels - say ten at a time, by clicking on the track numbers at teh top and then Alt-Right click and Recall All from Memory - Cell01 to set all the channels up the same, very quickly.

Dominic

[bassthumper]

Rick I am one of the unfortunate ones who has to use the pcmcia slot on my laptop. I am using it with a firewire card because my Acer doesn't have built in 1394. Plain and simple I like what Greg and I do with the RME Fireface 800 with and Octamic II and an Octamic D. I also use for extremely small stuff (less than 4 channels of audio) a M-Audio Firewire Solo. On my Acer when it is the one hauling the load I tend to get buffer slips that I have not been able to explain. on all of the rest of our systems we don't seem to have much issue with buffer slips. My Acer is the only one using PCMCIA and so I have always figured that to be the breakdown and causing the buffer slips. I am sure the RME cards are probably better suited for this purpose.

[jazzboxmaker]

Rick,
you can try the SAC demo with ASIO4All with your onboard soundcard and get a little better performance.
http://www.asio4all.com/

[Rick Stansby]

So it you're buying for a laptop, you have two choices - just make sure you get the right one, as the wrong one simply won't physically fit.

Dominic

Thanks for the clarification. I get it now. I'm pretty sure my laptop has the standard PCIMIA slot.

[Rick Stansby]

Dominic,
Thanks for the tips. I now see that I can test the amount of processor power used by assigning the same input (from my built-in soundcard) to multiple channels.

The main reason for using it on this laptop would be to get a feel for using the software in a live situation. If I was really going to use it a lot I would get a dedicated computer (laptop or otherwise).

I had these hopes of buying a $400 Firewire interface, and the software and getting some time to use the board, without making a huge investment. Now it seems like the firewire is not a good option, and I pretty much have to buy the whole system to get a good feel for how it works.

I am currently using a Yamaha LS9 and controlling it from a tablet. There are definitely some short-comings, but overall I have grown accustomed to how it works.

[bassthumper]

Dominic,

I had these hopes of buying a $400 Firewire interface, and the software and getting some time to use the board, without making a huge investment. Now it seems like the firewire is not a good option, and I pretty much have to buy the whole system to get a good feel for how it works.


Rick,

You can get a feel for how the system works with an inexpensive firewire setup. I would even go so far as to say that you could even have good results with a firewire setup. Most importantly you need to determine what really will be necessary for the application you are attempting to do.

For me personally I am having to explore all of the options simply because I am attempting to market retail package deals and I have customers that are wanting to go in different directions so knowing the best, most expensive, as well as least expensive configurations is always beneficial.

[Rick Stansby]

Rick,

You can get a feel for how the system works with an inexpensive firewire setup. I would even go so far as to say that you could even have good results with a firewire setup. Most importantly you need to determine what really will be necessary for the application you are attempting to do.

For me personally I am having to explore all of the options simply because I am attempting to market retail package deals and I have customers that are wanting to go in different directions so knowing the best, most expensive, as well as least expensive configurations is always beneficial.

Thanks. For most of my shows I am running between 16 and 30 channels, plus a few inputs for Talkback and playback. Even when using a 48 channel digital board I find that I am usually using about 32 inputs at most (plus playback and talkback). With scene recall I can reuse most mics on different bands, so I don't need the same channel count I would need with an analog board. There are also some speaking gigs, and dance troupes that only require a few channels, but a rack-mount analog mixer doesn't have all the dynamics, output EQ and fx I might need. I am constantly looking for a small digital mixer with no control surface that can be controlled from a laptop. Something that will give me a few channels with lots of EQ, dynamics, routing and fx. I had a vision of using SAC with modular I/O racks for small shows and big shows. Reading here I am starting to realize that there are a lot of drawbacks to running SAC on a laptop, and the laptop ADAT interfaces aren't compatible with desktop computers, so the idea of starting on a laptop and moving to a rackmount PC doesn't make as much sense as I thought. For the time being I bring the 32 channel digital mixer to even the smallest of shows. It is bigger than I would like, but it is paid for:) For larger shows and festivals I usually just bring 2 boards and a snake. The lack of dual Cue buses on my digital board prevents me from using just one board on important shows. Shared gain has been an issue from time to time, but for the most part it works out fine. Today I ran a show for 2 bands. I used the tablet at FOH and had a monitor engineer using the console on stage. The bands were easy and there weren't a lot of changes in the monitor mixes after the show got rolling. I ran soundcheck from the console on stage, and then I went into the audience for the show. I did without PFL and Talkback at FOH. I had to walk up to the mixer at the the end of the set to start house music. It was fine for that level of show, but it wouldn't fly on bigger show. I have built a small rack with CD player and headphone amp, which I use with an 8 channel snake to give me Talkback, PFL, Playback and intercom at a fixed FOH position. I can still walk the room and mix from the tablet, but I spend most of my time at the fixed FOH position, and while I'm there I have access to the PFL, TB, com and playback. To use the PFL I just add channels to an unused aux send which goes to my headphone amp. It isn't as convenient as hitting the pfl button, but it works. All of this is dependent on me mixing shows, a guest engineer would never be able to get up to speed on the tablet and all of its intricacies. This Fixed FOH rack and small snake would work equally well with SAC as it does with the LS9.

I suppose I could start with a cheap firewire interface and the software on the laptop, and then upgrade to a desktop and RayDAT card at a later date.

[DominicPerry]

Rick, just to throw a spanner in the works, and go back on everything I've said about interfacing, there has been some success using the M-Audio Lightbridge, although I can't remember the latest status. It's a cheap 32 channel ADAT only interface, Firewire connected, pretty cheap with no internal hardware DSP mixer (unlike the RME cards which all use TotalMix, which some people find a pain, others like, but functionally gives you a zero latency digital mixer if you need it). Have a search on the forum for Lightbridge. My main concern was that you can't daisy chain them, so it's 32 channels or bust.

Dominic

[mycorn]

my expierence here says avoid presonus

i forget who said they had good luck with Maudio

reguardless you'l need to position your laptop where it
it absolutely cannot be disturbed and still strain relief the firewire hose

if you loose firewire sync
you'r starting over


...not pretty

and dont forget the MS hotpatch!

mh

[Rick Stansby]

my expierence here says avoid presonus

i forget who said they had good luck with Maudio

reguardless you'l need to position your laptop where it
it absolutely cannot be disturbed and still strain relief the firewire hose

if you loose firewire sync
you'r starting over


...not pretty

and dont forget the MS hotpatch!

mh

Yeah, I guess it isn't a good idea to go with Presonus, several people (including Bob L) have mentioned M-audio as better.
The firewire cord is certainly a big issue. Besides I would need a second laptop to roam the room, so it seems like the rackmount PC is a much better solution. I'm starting to like idea of a pre-configured systems more and more.

Is there anyone in Northern California who has a system running. I would love to come out to a gig to really see this in action. I find using any sound board at home just doesn't give me a good idea of how it will work "in the heat of battle". I have mixed a couple shows on a Gamble DCX, and software is clearly similar (Did Bob write the control software for that mixer?)

[Rick Stansby]

Rick,
you can try the SAC demo with ASIO4All with your onboard soundcard and get a little better performance.
http://www.asio4all.com/

Vinny, Thanks for the tip. I will get off my butt and set it up today.

[Rick Stansby]

Rick, just to throw a spanner in the works, and go back on everything I've said about interfacing, there has been some success using the M-Audio Lightbridge, although I can't remember the latest status. It's a cheap 32 channel ADAT only interface, Firewire connected, pretty cheap with no internal hardware DSP mixer (unlike the RME cards which all use TotalMix, which some people find a pain, others like, but functionally gives you a zero latency digital mixer if you need it). Have a search on the forum for Lightbridge. My main concern was that you can't daisy chain them, so it's 32 channels or bust.

Dominic

My other concern is sampling rate. I believe ADAT is limited to 16-bit, 44.1K (48K?). I am happy with 44.1 K and I know the internal processing isn't at 16 bits, but I sort of thought the idea of 24 bit on a firewire interface was tempting. Are you running at 44.1/16? If so I guess I should stop worrying about that.

[Iain Westland]

adat will run at 24 bit, at least i believe so

[DominicPerry]

My other concern is sampling rate. I believe ADAT is limited to 16-bit, 44.1K (48K?). I am happy with 44.1 K and I know the internal processing isn't at 16 bits, but I sort of thought the idea of 24 bit on a firewire interface was tempting. Are you running at 44.1/16? If so I guess I should stop worrying about that.

Nope, ADAT runs 8 channels at 24/48 or 24/44.1. You have to use S/MUX to get higher sampling rates (88.2 or 96KHz) which means using twice as many ports for the same number of channels. (i.e. you only get 4 channels per ADAT at 24/96).

But standard ADAT is 8 channels at 24 bit or 16 bit, maximum 48KHz at both.

Dominic

(The original Alesis ADAT tape machines were 16 bit - perhaps that's what you're remembering?)

[Rick Stansby]

Nope, ADAT runs 8 channels at 24/48 or 24/44.1. You have to use S/MUX to get higher sampling rates (88.2 or 96KHz) which means using twice as many ports for the same number of channels. (i.e. you only get 4 channels per ADAT at 24/96).

But standard ADAT is 8 channels at 24 bit or 16 bit, maximum 48KHz at both.

Dominic

(The original Alesis ADAT tape machines were 16 bit - perhaps that's what you're remembering?)

Dominic and Iain,
Thanks. My memory gets all these 16s and 44.1s confused with all these 24s and 96s. That is a relief, even though it is all just numbers in the end, and the sound quality is what really matters. Yes I think it was the ADAT tape specs that I was remembering.

[Rick Stansby]

(The original Alesis ADAT tape machines were 16 bit - perhaps that's what you're remembering?)

It's funny how the ADAT connectors and ELCO patch snakes have outlived the ADAT tape decks they were designed for. I use ADAT ELCO patch snakes to connect my Analog FOH rack to my Analog mixer.

[Bob L]

Actually two of my employees from IQS broke off into their own business and helped Gamble with the DCX software... and yes... it was based originally on the SAC and SAMM interface which I was developing since 92.

Bob L

[Rick Stansby]

Actually two of my employees from IQS broke off into their own business and helped Gamble with the DCX software... and yes... it was based originally on the SAC and SAMM interface which I was developing since 92.

Bob L

I figured they were somehow related.

[bassthumper]

Yeah, I guess it isn't a good idea to go with Presonus, several people (including Bob L) have mentioned M-audio as better.
The firewire cord is certainly a big issue. Besides I would need a second laptop to roam the room, so it seems like the rackmount PC is a much better solution. I'm starting to like idea of a pre-configured systems more and more.

Is there anyone in Northern California who has a system running. I would love to come out to a gig to really see this in action. I find using any sound board at home just doesn't give me a good idea of how it will work "in the heat of battle". I have mixed a couple shows on a Gamble DCX, and software is clearly similar (Did Bob write the control software for that mixer?)


I am having the success on M-Audio with firewire, HOWEVER, M-Audio is limiting there firewire to 24 analog input only. Lightpipe and Octane pres or even the Profire 26/26 all you can get Analog is 24. Using the Lightpipe and the Octane pres has another set of issues in that there are only 2 outs on the Lightpipe and only direct outs on the Octanes. For small gigs it works well but to jump over the 24 ins and more than 2 outs its going to take some serious effort.

ART has what they call the Tubefire8 which has 8 analog ins and outs on each (not sure how good they are but they do have tube pres on each input and are fairly inexpensive at just under $500.00), and they claim that 4 of them coupled with an external clock can be chained together on 1 firewire buss at 16 bit 44.1 (in order to go higher you have to reduce the ins down to 16). The Question I have not been able to get answered is if you have 2 separate firewire buss can you do 64 ins and outs. The only communication I have had with them is via email (they don't share a phone number on their website) and they either don't check their email or they don't feel my question is good enough to answer.

[Rick Stansby]

The Question I have not been able to get answered is if you have 2 separate firewire buss can you do 64 ins and outs. The only communication I have had with them is via email (they don't share a phone number on their website) and they either don't check their email or they don't feel my question is good enough to answer.

That can be frustrating, especially after dealing with people like Bob L who bend over backwards to provide great support. At this point I am going away from the idea of doing this on a Laptop. I need a rack of preamps anyhow, and the "desktop" computers seem to have a lot of advantages.

[DominicPerry]

My personal take on this is that a laptop, however convenient for small 2 channel setups, is just too expensive and risky for a big gig. My laptop has enough power for a 40 channel setup, but I have fried the PCMCIA slot (it just got too hot and broke my Echo Indigo card) and the PSU connector on the MoBo has gone funny. I spent two hours taking the thing apart to see if I could solder it back on, with no success (although I did break the screen surround). Two hours to reassemble, and I used to be a computer hardware tech. You have no maintenance capability with a laptop at a gig, whereas a 'proper' desktop, you can swap the PSU, swap the soundcard, swap the HD, add another firewire card etc. There are possibilities in an emergency. And they cost half the price. And a good stable RME card like the RayDAT is 2/3 the price of a Digiface and Cardbus card, and half the price of a Fireface 800.

Dominic

[Rick Stansby]

Dominic,
Great points. I haven't really used SAC, but I'm coming to a lot of the same conclusions that you have. Desktops have cheaper interfaces, they are easier to build and repair, and they are more reliable.


My personal take on this is that a laptop, however convenient for small 2 channel setups, is just too expensive and risky for a big gig. My laptop has enough power for a 40 channel setup, but I have fried the PCMCIA slot (it just got too hot and broke my Echo Indigo card) and the PSU connector on the MoBo has gone funny. I spent two hours taking the thing apart to see if I could solder it back on, with no success (although I did break the screen surround).
:D That sounds like something that would happen to me.

[bassthumper]

My personal take on this is that a laptop, however convenient for small 2 channel setups, is just too expensive and risky for a big gig. My laptop has enough power for a 40 channel setup, but I have fried the PCMCIA slot (it just got too hot and broke my Echo Indigo card) and the PSU connector on the MoBo has gone funny. I spent two hours taking the thing apart to see if I could solder it back on, with no success (although I did break the screen surround). Two hours to reassemble, and I used to be a computer hardware tech. You have no maintenance capability with a laptop at a gig, whereas a 'proper' desktop, you can swap the PSU, swap the soundcard, swap the HD, add another firewire card etc. There are possibilities in an emergency. And they cost half the price. And a good stable RME card like the RayDAT is 2/3 the price of a Digiface and Cardbus card, and half the price of a Fireface 800.

Dominic


Dominic,

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. I have done my share of gigs on a laptop but after this past weekend I think the Laptops will move into remote only position. the benefits of the desktop are much too great to overlook....

[Trackzilla]

In answer to the ART Tubefire8 question (I'm a Yorkville/ART/Alto dealer) direct from ART tech support:

No, unless the software had some unexpected way to bridge between them, you cannot use two separate firewire busses to run 8 units, your software will only address one firewire buss at a time for devices...so 4's the limit.

Bob, feel free to chime in if your software does something that the factory is unaware of & I'll correct them ;)

[DaveS]

I think the drawback to using desktops, for me, is having to drag a monitor with you...that is the one thing in my book that makes a laptop an attractive prospect. Still, I have not been able to justify buying a laptop because of all the benefits that a desktop does give you. What I have done to try and self contain the system is mounted a monitor in the flip-up top section of a roll-about rack. I'm still futzing around with the keyboard and mouse (don't want to waste a rack space for the keyboard and mouse). the monitor is only a 17" but eventually I'll upgrade it to the biggest one I can fit. The rack is a Gator rack. Over-ll it takes up some space - but I can fit a lot of stuff in it including the 3-space computer rack, ADA8000's, MOTU Traveler, etc.. I'll have to get a picture of it and post it. I was looking at the smaller Gator cases that have a slopped top and 2, 4 or 6 rack spaces in the front. Still thinking though...

[Fat Cat Music]

Hello
I have picked up a couple of Dell c840's for a couple hundred each that have two card slots - that with only a little tweaking work great for SAWStudio and SAC
I maxed out the memory and put in a 7200 rpm hard drive and have been burning away all summer and now Fall and the begining (BRRRRRR) of winter.
48 channels with two rme digiface
have fun
drb

[bassthumper]

In answer to the ART Tubefire8 question (I'm a Yorkville/ART/Alto dealer) direct from ART tech support:

No, unless the software had some unexpected way to bridge between them, you cannot use two separate firewire busses to run 8 units, your software will only address one firewire buss at a time for devices...so 4's the limit.

Bob, feel free to chime in if your software does something that the factory is unaware of & I'll correct them ;)


Is the Tubefire8 stable enough to use on a 32 channel configuration or not????

[Trackzilla]

Is the Tubefire8 stable enough to use on a 32 channel configuration or not????

well...it is specifically advertised as working at 32 channels (4 units)...and the question posed was whether two separate firewire interfaces could be used at the same time to yield 64 channels, so I didn't ask them if they were lying about 32...do I really need to?

As far as latency vs. stability with SAC or SAW, just like MOTU or RME or (insert brand here) they won't have a clue what our experience will be, but they do know the performance of their units...unlike most hardware companies, they'll ship any dealer a stack of them to demo for a customer free of charge.

From my experience as a dealer, Yorkville/ART/Alto has been nothing short of stellar in their support...as good as TCElectronic has been...almost Bob-like

[IraSeigel]

This company - http://www.lindy-usa.com/usb-firewire/firewire-cards/ - seems to have some good adapters, both CardBus and ExpressCard (and PCIe). They seem to consistently use the TI chipset in their adapters.

They have versions of their website in several countries. Check them out.

Ira

[IraSeigel]

And here is another company that I hadn't heard of before:

http://www.syba.com/Product/List/Id/26

Ira