Strange SAC session issue

[DaveS]

I've run into a strange problem with SAC that I have been unable to figure out.

I have an older machine - 3ghz P4 with 1G of ram that I wanted to re-purpose as a small mixing system. It currently has two RME Hammerfall 9652's and the latest driver installed - Ver 2.11. OS is Win XP with SP3 in it. Only using the native plugins and JMS EQ and RCD. There is really not much else on the machine. It is a hyper-threading CPU which I have set to one cpu in the startup files. I also have the program set to realtime under options.

I've configured SAC to access 9 devices - basically all off the first 9652. Latency is set to 4x64 for both in and out (unable to select X x 32 - don't know if the 9652's can do that).

What is strange is that if I start SAC, then right-click on the Live button - nothing seems to happen as far as the indicator shows however if I open the options menu the Audio settings is grayed out like the system is running. If I then click on the Live button to 'turn off the engine (sometimes this takes a couple clicks) I can see the Audio settings under options. Then, all I have to do is open the Audio Settings, click ok (without making any changes) and then when I click the Live button all is normal.

I also tried making an actual session using aproximately 12 channels and 4 monitor mixers. Similar problem occurs.

I tried doing a re-install of SAC but that didn't help. Should I completely remove the directory and try this again?

I'm not really looking to have a super-powerful system with this - 16 channels in with main and 4 or 5 monitors max.

Thanks!

[DominicPerry]

Sounds like maybe a video card problem. Have you tried turning down the windows video trobleshooting slider?

Dominic

[Naturally Digital]

Are you using the SAW-SAC links in this test?

The only time I've noticed similar behavior is (I think) when SAW hasn't been started and/or I'm loading a SAC session that has it's inputs set to SAW channels.

[Bob L]

I'm guessing a video card drawing issue... try setting the Windows Display Troubleshooting slider down 1 notch to turn off some of the hardware acceleration options in the video driver... that may solve it.

Bob L

[DaveS]

Thanks for the quick replies!

Domenic - I thought at first that it might be a video issue and tried the old turning off buss mastering on the video card (Matrox 450) and tried dropping the Troubleshooting bar...still didn't help....

Dave - I'm just running SAC. I would like to be able to run SawStudio down the line but I honestly don't know if it will be possible with this machine. Even though it's a 3 ghz machine, it only has a 533mhz fsb. But if I'm only recording 12 to 16 channels it might work... I sure wouldn't complain! Actually that sounds a little funny considering that several years ago this kind of power is what DAWs were running on...:)


HOWEVER - I just found out what was causing the issue.... :o

It was the JMS HiRes EQ. I copied it from the SawStudio Native effects folders along with others to make effect installation faster. I have to check with John - I don't know if his license covers use in Sac on the same machine as SS or not...

When I was checking the various effects I noticed that when I checked the options for the hiRes Eq it had my registration but also said something about a JMS-buss not being installed. i didn't think much about it but then started having these issues so I did a complete directory purge and started from scratch. But again I just copied the native effects folder over - and the problem started again. so I was going to go thru and delete each effect, one by one to see which it was. The HiRes Eq was the first one to be removed and the system started behaving again.

I will contact John (unless he sees this and wants to drop a note) and check on the A)the legality of using the HiRes eq (and for that matter RCD) in SAC - I certainly don't want to violate his license - and B) if it's ok if there is a new installer that will allow you to install into SAC. I tried to run the installer but got an error about it not being able to find the SawStudio FX ini file.

Given what is already in SAC I probably don't need the HiRes EQ but I've gotten pretty used to using it and RCD in SawStudio....

[Bob L]

Well... your machine speed should be fine.

I have been running my P4 3gig machine for the last two days in rehearsals at the Golden Nugget here in Vegas... it has been doing fine.

I am set to do monitors... I am running SAC for 6 stereo in ears monitor mixes and my own FOH mix... 25 channels... and been recording all 25 channels with SS using the SAC-Link... its only running at about 38%... and today, for about 5 hours, I hooked in two remote machines on a 100 mbs wired network... looked great.

Bob L

[Bud Johnson]

Not positive about it being the Hi-Res EQ. I do have that, but I' not sure I put it into SAC. I have the same issue, on start up only. (Also running 9652, and no, x by 64 is as low as it will go.)
On my system, the on light also remains off, but the system is actually on. To remedy I can turn SAC off, open audio options, or the RME config applet, then close, and the on off light behaves normally. I presumed it had something to do with initializing the asio connection to SAC. But it's just that- presumption. It only happens, for me, the 1st time I load SAC after a boot. If I close SAC, then open again, it behaves normally....IIRC.
Happens on 1st SAC run regardless of SS Status.
When I'm near the machine I'll check to see if I put the JMS EQ into SAC s VST folder.
Dual anthlon, running both cores, XP sp2, Matrox dual graphics.

[DominicPerry]

Both using Matrox cards. Mmmm

Dominic

[DaveS]

Bob - that's great to hear about your machine! Do you recall what the FSB was on the CPU? I think some were up to 800mhz before the Core 2's started coming out but I could be mistaken. Mine is 533Mhz..might cause a bit of a bottle neck. Unfortunately the board is pretty difficult if not impossible to overclock - it's an Intel D845GEBV2. Still, I was running about 18% with 10 channels, Reverb and Delay returns and 5 monitor sends. Buffers set to 4x64 on inputs and outputs. So I'm pretty confident the system will work ok. I'm going to try the SawStudio link tonight and run it for a couple of hours...then NYE it get's to shine at a gig with a new group I'm playing in.

Bud - That's interesting. What I found was that whenever I first started SAC and I had the HiRes installed, the Live indicator would not indicate till I opened the Options/Audio Setup menu, clicked ok, and then clicked on the Live button. It would work fine until I shut the program down and then start it again, and I would have to go thru it again. Even if I called up a mix that was working. I would recommend cutting all of the effects out of your Native Effects directory and put them in a temp folder on your desktop, then try SAC and see if the problem happens again. It might not be HiRes but maybe something else. I was thinking it might have been something in the ini file, but from what I remember I made sure entries were correct...

[DaveS]

... I am running SAC for 6 stereo in ears monitor mixes and my own FOH mix... 25 channels... and been recording all 25 channels with SS using the SAC-Link... its only running at about 38%...
Bob L

Bob - did you have EQ, Comps/gates, etc. enabled? Also - what was your effects setup (if any)? Looking to get a ballpark comparison.

[DaveS]

Both using Matrox cards. Mmmm

Dominic

Interesting indeed...I wonder why removing HiRes would have caused the system to start behaving normally? It's not like HiRes was being used...unless there is something in it's code that would interect with the Video card before being used. And why only the Live indicator?
...Actually, I'm not sure if I had any active indicators at all as I was just focusing on the Live button and the resources meter.

I'll have to pop it back into the effects folder and run a signal in to see if the meters are working...

[Bob L]

I was only using one FOH reverb and passing that output thru to the monitor mixer returns by assigning the Pst Tap on the monitor returns.

Yes, eq and comps used on the FOH mix and the rest pst eq tap... I did use extra comps on the monitor mix vocals also.

Bob L

[Bud Johnson]

I noted we are both using Matrox cards (550 for me) but I also noted the problem never came up before till I installed the latest Version of SAC. Never happened with previous versions, and I've done nothing new with my fx folders.

BTW, I'd be very surprised if you cant get 24 tracks and several monitor mixes with lots of eq and comps and record all in SS on your machine. Try it.

[DaveS]

Thanks Bob! That's good info. Sounds like similar channel setups to what I will be using though I didn't have the EQ's engaged. I was also using your delay on each of the vocal and gtr channels set with ~5 to 9 ms delays for fattening up the vocals, guitar...but I'm thinking it might be better to just run that as another return...

BTW - speaking of engaging EQ and such...does having unused channels set to use output 1 and not-muted use resources? Would it be better to have each unused channel not assigned to an output and muted?

[Bud Johnson]

Thanks Bob! That's good info. Sounds like similar channel setups to what I will be using though I didn't have the EQ's engaged. I was also using your delay on each of the vocal and gtr channels set with ~5 to 9 ms delays for fattening up the vocals, guitar...but I'm thinking it might be better to just run that as another return...

BTW - speaking of engaging EQ and such...does having unused channels set to use output 1 and not-muted use resources? Would it be better to have each unused channel not assigned to an output and muted?
Device assignments in audio options increase load, but unused channels do not, as long as you don't have EQ/comps etc. engaged I believe.

[DaveS]

Device assignments in audio options increase load, but unused channels do not, as long as you don't have EQ/comps etc. engaged I believe.

Ah - that's good news! I really wasn't looking forward to doing 60+ channels x 25 (FOH and monitors) of mutes and un-assigns! :eek:

Regarding the 'issue' - I can check by reinstalling 1.2...that might be enlightening...

[Bud Johnson]

Ah - that's good news! I really wasn't looking forward to doing 60+ channels x 25 (FOH and monitors) of mutes and un-assigns! :eek:

Regarding the 'issue' - I can check by reinstalling 1.2...that might be enlightening...
I stand corrected on both counts. The problem persists on subsequent runnings of SAC. (I was sure yesterday it didn't) and I do have JMS Hi-Res in the native FX folder. Yup, removing it from the INI solves the problem, at least on re opening SAC. Will try a new boot and then open.
Yup, still fixed after reboot.

Let us know if it can be repeated in earlier versions so we know who to alert, Bob, or John.

[DaveS]

I just downloaded the HiResEQ demo and loaded it into my computer here at work along with SAC 1.3 - it seems to be working ok. Of course this is strictly a business machine with ASIO4ALL installed...and no RME or Matrox cards....

I don't have an older version of SAC here, so I won't be able to test any further till this evening...

[Bud Johnson]

Bob,
Had a chance to install 1.2 with the JMS Hi-ResEQ. The problem is gone. Activation light behaves as it should...blinking till I start the engine or kill the light.
Reinstalled 1.3, problem is back. Remove the JMS plug from the .ini and all is fine again.
Not saying it's not a JMS issue, but might you know what changed between 1.2 and 1.3 that could have awakened this problem?
Dave, can you confirm this please when you have a chance?

[Bob L]

Input channels that have no source assignment at the top of the module will not add load to the engine... or channels that are disabled at the top of the module.

As far as the code changes in 1.3... nothing there comes to mind that would specifically affect changes in the FX API... but anything is possible.

Bob L

[Bud Johnson]

I just downloaded the HiResEQ demo and loaded it into my computer here at work along with SAC 1.3 - it seems to be working ok. Of course this is strictly a business machine with ASIO4ALL installed...and no RME or Matrox cards....

I don't have an older version of SAC here, so I won't be able to test any further till this evening...
Dave, did you have a chance to see if the problem happens with SAC 1.2. or only with SAC 1.3?

[DaveS]

I just ran the test.

My machine with an RME HDSP9652 and SAC 1.3 had the failed Live indicator with HiResEQ installed. I installed 1.2 and it started working again.

I thought maybe it was something to do with the RME driver, so I tried it on my internet machine which has an M-Audio FW1814 on it, I put SAC 1.3 and HiResEQ on it and it had the in-op Live indicator problem as well. Installing 1.2 removed the problem. :(

[DaveS]

I just tried something on the internet machine with the FW1814. I opened SAC and it wouldn't start...while it was 'running lights out' I attempted to load the EQ and it came up - and half of the Live indicator came on. Since then SAC has worked fine. Complete shutdown and restart and it works correctly.

I tried the same thing on the Core 2Duo machine with the RME HDSP9652 and the half-lit Live indicator came on and it worked ok until I restarted SAC when it started behaving incorrectly again. :(

So - I would think that there is something between SAC 1.3, RME drivers and HiResEQ going on....

Bob - any ideas or tests you want me to run?

[Bud Johnson]

I just tried something on the internet machine with the FW1814. I opened SAC and it wouldn't start...while it was 'running lights out' I attempted to load the EQ and it came up - and half of the Live indicator came on. Since then SAC has worked fine. Complete shutdown and restart and it works correctly.

I tried the same thing on the Core 2Duo machine with the RME HDSP9652 and the half-lit Live indicator came on and it worked ok until I restarted SAC when it started behaving incorrectly again. :(


So - I would think that there is something between SAC 1.3, RME drivers and HiResEQ going on....

Bob - any ideas or tests you want me to run?

Dave,
What graphics card on the internet machine?

[Bob L]

I have no ideas really... except that there might be something causing corruption when the Hi-Res Eq is first loaded at the start of the program.

I will try to step thru the debugger with Jon's plug installed and see what may be happening.

For now... I would leave it out of the loop... there are plenty of eq options to use in SAC... including just the built-in eq... which should more than handle your eq needs.

Bob L

[Bob L]

Well... I just installed Jon's Hi-Res EQ into SAC and it is in fact the culprit... I don'y know exactly what is happening but it somehow blocks my main window updates until the SAC program has been minimied and then restored... or until I repaint the entire interface by using an F-Key to switch workspaces.

The problem couldd tie into the changes I made in 1.3 to handle the ontop windows when switching apps... somehow Jon's plug may not be hooking the proper window handle that the API is passing to the plug... we'll have to investigate further.

Not sure if the corruption would be causing any stability issues further down the line, so at the moment, I would suggets removing it from the ini list until we can figure out what is happening.

Bob L

[DaveS]

Bud - the internet machine has an ATI card in it, don't recall the actual number. It's a Sony Vaio, 3.4ghz, P4

The Core 2 machine has an ASUS video card in it, ASUS mobo.

The original machine I noticed the problem on has a Matrox video card.

The two machines that keep exhibiting the problem both have RME cards installed - the original has two Hammerfall 9652 cards and the Core 2 machine has an HDSP 9652. The Sony has the M-Audio FW1814. Bob, If I'm not mistaken you also have RME cards in your systems?

Bob - I wasn't planning on using the HiResEQ because as you said, there are plenty of EQ options in SAC already... Plus I have several 15 band EQ's outboard...(sometimes it's nice to have a volume knob to reach for in a hurry...)

I didn't try using an F-key option - I'll have to try that too. No doubt it will be the same as what you found.