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View Full Version : something to keep an eye on maybe



Iain Westland
01-06-2009, 03:32 PM
im getting excited, a couple of guys are starting to diy digital pres (API style front ends is a very easy option) where everything could eventually be daw controlled ... wont be cheap to build, but the quality and support will phenominal.

Iain

http://www.prodigy-pro.com/diy/index.php?topic=31185.0

Trackzilla
01-06-2009, 06:00 PM
intriguing....bookmarked :)

mycorn
01-07-2009, 05:29 AM
lets not start a bidding war for the first rack of 32

can i have mine in neve flavor please...

txshonk
01-07-2009, 07:23 AM
Yeah this has me thinking too. But I think I may be missing some of where you guys are going.

So help me out here for us SAC users:

1) I am thinking pres that allowed you to adjust trims and watch clipping via a remote computer. Having the GUI be the SAC console just like a real board would be great.
2) Then taking the digital pre to the next level - to have a selection of "modeled" pres on each channel. Do I want a Neve, API etc on that channel?

Beyond there what else could you guys be thinking?

On a similar note I have wondered how hard it would be to gut an 8 channel pre (say ADA8000) and stick a midi controller in it that received trim up and down commands and sent clip information to the PC. And then code some GUI with remote capabilities like SAW and SAC that would allow monitor pres in the SAC world without running to stage.

Love to hear where others heads and ideas are on things like this.

Bob L
01-07-2009, 07:53 AM
You don't really need anything special to already do remote trim control of your ADA8000 or whatever pres that you want to use as a SAC front end.... trust... there is so little noise... none in fact... even with ADA8000 pres.... that you can just set the hardware trim down 4-6 db and use the SAC attenuator control to handle mic pre trim on every channel.

SAC adds ZERO noise for all the summing and processing and aux sending and all of the features of 25 consoles wrapped up in one.... so there is plenty of headroom to go around.

I have operated this way many many times with no need to go back to the hardware mic trim at all... all control can be handled from SAC... there seems to be absolutely NOTHING to gain from some special protocol and more expensive circuitry just to handle mic trim at the hardware level... try it... and you will see what I mean.

Set your mic pres with enough headroom so they simply will not clip on the strongest signal... then adjust your inputs using the SAC attenuator controls... you have up to +20 db of gain (virtually noise free) and can easily keep signal levels properly trimmed and under control.

Bob L

txshonk
01-07-2009, 08:15 AM
Bob -

Thanks for the info - what you stated is exactly what I have been doing and havent been having any problems. So I wont waste any more time pondering if some type of MIDI retrofit into a pre would work, because beyond the can I make it work it adds no practical value.

Like my Dad taught me growing up "If it aint broke dont fix it."

Thanks

dave

kruntz
01-07-2009, 10:40 AM
You don't really need anything special to already do remote trim control of your ADA8000 or whatever pres that you want to use as a SAC front end.... trust... there is so little noise... none in fact... even with ADA8000 pres.... that you can just set the hardware trim down 4-6 db and use the SAC attenuator control to handle mic pre trim on every channel.

I agree.
ADA8000 uses Wavefront AL1101 24-bit sigma-delta converters (mine, at least...)
Every bit is roughly equivalent to 6dB, so leaving 24dB of headroom on your ADAs, will subtract "only" four bits to the max resolution. (for unknown reasons, we seems to agree that a 16 bit CD has an acceptable audio quality...)
BTW, AL1101 features a 107dB dynamic range and so it is equivalent to a 17.48 bit converter, but this is another story: I don't seem to do gigs in venues that leave me with more than 60dB of dynamic range below the 104dB SPL enforced by the sound police... :-)
That said, I managed to squeeze a couple more bits from my ADA8000s: I did a table with the number of clicks you have to turn the input knob depending on the microphone type...
For example, a SM58 can output -11dBu max when you put it in front of a human, and +3dBu *inside* a trumpet...

PepoElMaster
01-07-2009, 12:21 PM
I think both options work great... depending the case.

Setting an analog trim below the clipping and working around with the SAC controler will work great. As stated, absolutly no noise and enought A/D Headroom if working with 24bits conversion.


But a remotly controled analog trim come handy in "band festival" like shows...
Where you have 15 diferent bands, every single one with a diferent stage and instruments. I you have 64 inputs system, you dont have to worry, just assign diferent channels to each band on the sound check.

But if you have a 16 or 24 inputs system, you will need to "re-use" some channels, and most luckly it wont be the same instrument, and the same input level.

Having to go on stage to change those levels each time band goes on stage... well, not impossible, but it's uncomfortable.

That where a remotly controled with recalling option preamp is usefull.

Bob L
01-07-2009, 12:32 PM
And the reality in that situation is you most likely have to go to the stage to setup the new band and all of their different inputs anyway. :)

All I am suggesting is that this is really not that big of an issue and for the extra cost and complication of remote controlled hardware trim pots, it may not prove to be of any real advantage.

Bob L

Warren
01-07-2009, 12:53 PM
And the reality in that situation is you most likely have to go to the stage to setup the new band and all of their different inputs anyway. :)

All I am suggesting is that this is really not that big of an issue and for the extra cost and complication of remote controlled hardware trim pots, it may not prove to be of any real advantage.

Bob L

Thanks Bob:
For keeping at least my head clear on this, many a time I find myself thinking I need to mod gear, tweak this and that, at an enormous expense only to gain very little in actual functionality. If I am tracking a classical group I now may rent some better preamps than the ADA8000 but for most live work I find them fine, albeit hard to explain to some finicky clients, but once they hear the sound they shut up quickly.

Thanks and I am looking forward to the next SAC update. (Love those toys)

Chris

Bob L
01-07-2009, 12:59 PM
There are many choices out there for people who have no budget constraints... the easiest upgrade from the ADA8000 would probably be the PreSonus DigiMax FS... over 3 times the cost... but a pretty much straight replacement with a few nice extra features like direct analog outs as well as insert points in the analog side before the digital conversion.

So... you could add one or two of these in the rack for possible higher quality concerns for certain vocals or instruments.

After that... of course... you can use racks of API or Neve pres with analog line outs jumpered into any number of line in/out converters... this price can start to climb as high as you want for those finicky customers that just can't wrap their heads around Behringers... heh in the end... what about racks of Manley mic pres at $9000 each... that could be fun. :)

Bob L

IraSeigel
01-07-2009, 01:11 PM
Aphex has had remote-controllable mic preamps for years. RME's Micstasy is also great. All very expensive.

Bob's suggestion is the best and most practical.

Ira

Warren
01-07-2009, 01:28 PM
If the clients would pay the difference, that would be great, but they want the Manley at the Tapco or radio shack price. :eek:

Staying with the ADA8000 for now.

IraSeigel
01-07-2009, 04:32 PM
If the clients would pay the difference, that would be great, but they want the Manley at the Tapco or radio shack price. :eek:

Staying with the ADA8000 for now.

Hey, nothing wrong with Tapco. I used their Firewire interface and SAW in summer 2007 to record every show I did with the FIXX. They turned out great.

(But I just used the line ins - I wouldn't trust the mic inputs)

Ira

Warren
01-07-2009, 07:06 PM
Hey, nothing wrong with Tapco. I used their Firewire interface and SAW in summer 2007 to record every show I did with the FIXX. They turned out great.

(But I just used the line ins - I wouldn't trust the mic inputs)

Ira

I was not dissing all there gear I have only seen a few really old things of theirs, and it twas sad :eek:

Chris

mycorn
01-08-2009, 05:48 AM
awwwwww...

c'mon chris

mid '80s
8 CHANNELS!!!!!!!
all rotery pots
master as big as a dodge van steering wheel

those were the dazzzzzzzze

i mixed some seriously big hair on those things

IraSeigel
01-08-2009, 07:37 AM
awwwwww...

c'mon chris

mid '80s
8 CHANNELS!!!!!!!
all rotery pots
master as big as a dodge van steering wheel

...

More like mid '70s!!:)

Warren
01-08-2009, 11:30 AM
awwwwww...

c'mon chris

mid '80s
8 CHANNELS!!!!!!!
all rotery pots
master as big as a dodge van steering wheel

those were the dazzzzzzzze

i mixed some seriously big hair on those things

Guess your right I did lov those big knobs, no doubt their biggest selling feature.

And LOTS of GLAM, HAIR, FACE GOO and SPANDEX PANTS (made the fat guys look like the michelin tireman in drag)

Chris