Touring: Equipment Suggestions Needed

[IraSeigel]

I have many dates on my calendar coming up with Sheena Easton in which there'll be absolutely NO time for a soundcheck - what's sometimes called "Throw 'n Go". They're mostly large festivals with multiple acts, 15-20 minute stage changes.

In past years, on the riders I write, I've asked for 2 FOH consoles and 2 monitor consoles. While the band before you is performing using Consoles A, you can be prepping the other set of Consoles B that you'll be using.

Lately, that chore and expense has been largely eliminated with digital, recallable consoles, so after a soundcheck you can store all your settings. By having something like a Yamaha PM5D as kind of an unofficial default standard, you could store your PM5D settings from a previous show on a memory card and plug them into any 5D, and if all your inputs and outputs have been patched correctly you'd be good to go even without a soundcheck.

Now I'm finding that many sound providers aren't providing the PM5D - they're supplying DigiCo, Soundcraft, "lesser" Yamahas, and still a variety of analog desks.

So with my upcoming shows, I'm considering rewriting my rider and requesting that the sound company not provide a particular console, but that they provide a particular set of interfaces or converters to be used with my SAC laptop. That way I'd have all my settings in my laptop and I wouldn't need to soundcheck.

So my question is, given my situation as described, what would you recommend that a sound company supply to me that I could then connect with my SAC laptop and be "good to go".

If you're an equipment provider, please make suggestions based on your budget, and what you could afford to stock in your warehouse. If you're an engineer, please do NOT take cost as your main consideration. I'm expecting most suggestions will be based on either ADAT/Lightpipe or MADI.

For Sheena's show, I need 24 inputs, 10 mono monitor mixes, 2 mono effects in the monitors for her vocals and 4 stereo effects in the house.

As always, when I travel my goal is to not have any checked luggage, so unfortunately I'm not looking to carry this equipment with me - unless I'd require something small like an RME MADIface or Digiface or similar that would interface with your suggested equipment.

If this request leaves a lot of unanswered questions, please let me know and I'll try to fill in the blanks.:o

I appreciate any time you're willing to spend to think about this.

Regards,
Ira

[ffarrell]

HI
I've worked for or with lot's of sound companies and I can tell you right now you will be hard press to find ANY that will have converters self contained. Some might have a recording rig.

I would try to get your production manager to do a buy out for the desk and you get 3 PreSonus DigiMax FS 8-Channel Microphone Preamp and you carry SAC.

If not I think you would be better off getting AD from a backline company.

Remember you could have a small rack shipped ground before the gig.

FVF



I have many dates on my calendar coming up with Sheena Easton in which there'll be absolutely NO time for a soundcheck - what's sometimes called "Throw 'n Go". They're mostly large festivals with multiple acts, 15-20 minute stage changes.

In past years, on the riders I write, I've asked for 2 FOH consoles and 2 monitor consoles. While the band before you is performing using Consoles A, you can be prepping the other set of Consoles B that you'll be using.

Lately, that chore and expense has been largely eliminated with digital, recallable consoles, so after a soundcheck you can store all your settings. By having something like a Yamaha PM5D as kind of an unofficial default standard, you could store your PM5D settings from a previous show on a memory card and plug them into any 5D, and if all your inputs and outputs have been patched correctly you'd be good to go even without a soundcheck.

Now I'm finding that many sound providers aren't providing the PM5D - they're supplying DigiCo, Soundcraft, "lesser" Yamahas, and still a variety of analog desks.

So with my upcoming shows, I'm considering rewriting my rider and requesting that the sound company not provide a particular console, but that they provide a particular set of interfaces or converters to be used with my SAC laptop. That way I'd have all my settings in my laptop and I wouldn't need to soundcheck.

So my question is, given my situation as described, what would you recommend that a sound company supply to me that I could then connect with my SAC laptop and be "good to go".

If you're an equipment provider, please make suggestions based on your budget, and what you could afford to stock in your warehouse. If you're an engineer, please do NOT take cost as your main consideration. I'm expecting most suggestions will be based on either ADAT/Lightpipe or MADI.

For Sheena's show, I need 24 inputs, 10 mono monitor mixes, 2 mono effects in the monitors for her vocals and 4 stereo effects in the house.

As always, when I travel my goal is to not have any checked luggage, so unfortunately I'm not looking to carry this equipment with me - unless I'd require something small like an RME MADIface or Digiface or similar that would interface with your suggested equipment.

If this request leaves a lot of unanswered questions, please let me know and I'll try to fill in the blanks.:o

I appreciate any time you're willing to spend to think about this.

Regards,
Ira

[Trackzilla]

Keep in mind, many sound companies that use the Yamaha digi consoles have the ADAT cards in them for channel expansion. The most common such card provides 16 In & 16 out in ADAT format, and even our lowly DM1000 sports capacity for two such cards which is more than ample for interfacing SAC with the onboard pres & omni outs
I have already used our little Yammy as additional preamps & outputs for our SAC rig by configging the I/O creatively in Yamaha Studio Manager software. The 16 preamps routed to 16 of the ADAT outs, and 12 of the ADAT ins were routed back to the OMNI outs. So if you are on a tour that specs the Yamaha consoles, you could use them as interfaces for SAC easily and any non-SAC support acts would still retain 'conventional' use of the console, just make sure the consoles are spec'd to provide appropriate i/o cards...with a bit of MIDI template creation, you could give yourself tactile control of SAC as well.

[IraSeigel]

Keep in mind, many sound companies that use the Yamaha digi consoles have the ADAT cards in them for channel expansion. The most common such card provides 16 In & 16 out in ADAT format, and even our lowly DM1000 sports capacity for two such cards which is more than ample for interfacing SAC with the onboard pres & omni outs
I have already used our little Yammy as additional preamps & outputs for our SAC rig by configging the I/O creatively in Yamaha Studio Manager software. The 16 preamps routed to 16 of the ADAT outs, and 12 of the ADAT ins were routed back to the OMNI outs. So if you are on a tour that specs the Yamaha consoles, you could use them as interfaces for SAC easily and any non-SAC support acts would still retain 'conventional' use of the console, just make sure the consoles are spec'd to provide appropriate i/o cards...with a bit of MIDI template creation, you could give yourself tactile control of SAC as well.

So a Fireface 800 - with 2 ADAT-in ports - and a firewire card or port in your laptop would work with your setup? Or a Digiface and the RME HDSP CardBus adapter?

Thanks very much for this info,
Ira

[Trackzilla]

I already had MOTU so that's what I'm using. To meet your 24x10ch spec, your computer will obviously need 3 adat in lines & 2 out (unless those effects you mention are hardware outboard units in which case you climb to 5 adat in & 2 out).
Just make sure to specify that they have adat port cards in the Yamaha console that match your channel count...Each MY16AT card does 16ch/card (2 ADAT in, 2 out) and the MY8AT does 8 ch (1 each direction). This applies to the DM1000, DM2000, o1v, o2r, ls9, m7cl, pm1d, & pm5d consoles, and the number of available card slots varies by model...you'll only have 16 native preamps on some of the smaller consoles, but if they're satisfying your channel count with one of these smaller frames, and they have enough cards to meet your spec as well, you're guaranteed there'll be some way to softpatch whatever outboard pres are included to achieve your connectivity.
Most probably something similar is available on most other digi consoles, but I fear I only know specifics for the Yammy toys ;)

[ffarrell]

HI Guys

I'm not tring to rain on your idea and it is a good one BUT I would ask you this.
Of all the Yamaha you have, how many have the adat option?

I think most sound companies will not have that option.

Digico is MADI out option. Just wait til you price that interface.
Midas XL8 MADI out option.
Midas pro6 4 AES outs
Studer Vista 5 SR 16 channal Adat option. ( only a few houses have one )

I own 3 D-Shows and only one of them has the HDx option. ( BTW the FW option will not work for you on the digidesign desk, 256 buffer)

I would just work on any of the Yamaha line and save your show to a card.

OR
fully commit to SAC and do the small rack thing.

How many mic pres do you need?
Can keyboards, wireless mics, and guitar racks go line level?

So if it's just drums that's what 8.

some things to think about

fvf




I already had MOTU so that's what I'm using. To meet your 24x10ch spec, your computer will obviously need 3 adat in lines & 2 out (unless those effects you mention are hardware outboard units in which case you climb to 5 adat in & 2 out).
Just make sure to specify that they have adat port cards in the Yamaha console that match your channel count...Each MY16AT card does 16ch/card (2 ADAT in, 2 out) and the MY8AT does 8 ch (1 each direction). This applies to the DM1000, DM2000, o1v, o2r, ls9, m7cl, pm1d, & pm5d consoles, and the number of available card slots varies by model...you'll only have 16 native preamps on some of the smaller consoles, but if they're satisfying your channel count with one of these smaller frames, and they have enough cards to meet your spec as well, you're guaranteed there'll be some way to softpatch whatever outboard pres are included to achieve your connectivity.
Most probably something similar is available on most other digi consoles, but I fear I only know specifics for the Yammy toys ;)

[IraSeigel]

HI Guys

I'm not tring to rain on your idea and it is a good one BUT I would ask you this.
Of all the Yamaha you have, how many have the adat option?

I think most sound companies will not have that option.

Digico is MADI out option. Just wait til you price that interface.
Midas XL8 MADI out option.
Midas pro6 4 AES outs
Studer Vista 5 SR 16 channal Adat option. ( only a few houses have one )

I own 3 D-Shows and only one of them has the HDx option. ( BTW the FW option will not work for you on the digidesign desk, 256 buffer)

I would just work on any of the Yamaha line and save your show to a card.

OR
fully commit to SAC and do the small rack thing.

How many mic pres do you need?
Can keyboards, wireless mics, and guitar racks go line level?

So if it's just drums that's what 8.

some things to think about

fvf

Frank,
I personally have never known any house or touring PM series to have the ADAT cards, so your point is well taken.

The Soundcraft VI consoles that I'm now working on at Benaroya Hall in Seattle all have MADI as standard, but I don't know any sound providers that bring these to a live gig or have in an in-house installation except the Ovation at Green Valley Ranch in Vegas.

I'm able to get my 24 channels for Sheena's show down a bit by doubling up on rack toms (1 mic/2 toms) and eliminating some spare RF mics. With all the other wireless and DI stuff I have, I'm looking at drum mics (7), an electric guitar mic and one wired vocal, along with 10 line levels (assuming I want to keep my keys and playback tracks in stereo).

So what I have now in a 3-space rack that travels inside a Pelican-type case (checked baggage, unfortunately) is a Behringer ADA8000 for all my line levels, an RME Octamic with 8 mic ins, and a Fireface 800 for the interface and the additional line ins and mic ins that I need.

I think I'm resigned to traveling with my setup, as I'm skeptical that I'll consistently find sound companies that will provide ADAT or MADI out from their consoles.

Thanks,
Ira

[DominicPerry]

I don't know about these consoles, but isn't there a delay in the A/D stage? - so if you're getting an ADAT or a MADI feed from a console, it could already be 5ms behind. Adding that to whatever you're getting from SAC might take things over the acceptable limit.

Dominic

[IraSeigel]

I don't know about these consoles, but isn't there a delay in the A/D stage? - so if you're getting an ADAT or a MADI feed from a console, it could already be 5ms behind. Adding that to whatever you're getting from SAC might take things over the acceptable limit.

Dominic

That's an interesting point.
However, in the case of the PM1D, for example, all of the conversion is done in a rack usually located onstage. The 5D systems I've used have their converters inside the console. I've seen DigiCo systems with the converters at FOH. The point being that there is no objectionable latency in their AD conversion.

So your question sounds like it's suggesting there's ADDITIONAL latency introduced at the ADAT or MADI output? Why would that be? If the original AD conversion introduces no "objectionable" latency (as opposed to measurable latency), then why would an already digitized signal be delayed further going to ADAT? Is it an intrinsic property of ADAT or MADI?

Thanks,
Ira

[DominicPerry]

Ira,

I'd have to look into this, there's certainly no intrinsic problem with the ADAT or MADI. It's more about the way the console is setup and the internal buffering, whether there is a delay between the analogue input and the digital output. There are all sorts of practical reasons why this might be the case, but I might be scaremongering. Certainly the discreet conversion itself from A to D should be less than a millisecond (the RME specs I've seen are in this order) and the digital transmission time is as good as instant, so it's more about the internal architecture of these desks. I doubt if it is a problem, but it might be worth understanding in a bit more detail if you are essentially relying on external equipment for part of your audio chain. I'll look into it and see what I can find.

Dominic

[IraSeigel]

Ira,

...
I doubt if it is a problem, but it might be worth understanding in a bit more detail if you are essentially relying on external equipment for part of your audio chain. I'll look into it and see what I can find.

Dominic

This is something that I would never have considered. Much thanks.

Ira

[sebastiandybing]

Hi Ira

Have you already done some shows with SAC or are you jumping
directly into a Sheena Easton show with SAC and a laptop ?

Most digital mixers in the 50 -100000 dollers class have dual current supply, harddrives running mirror, madi with dual in/out, self healing
dsp cards routing if a dsp prossor goes dead.

You are going to perform a serie of shows with a standard laptop using
a tiny current supply using mobilphone connection, 4 or 6 pin firewire
connection for all audio in/out, build in single harddrive with no option
for backup.

If something is going wrong for you doing the show, you have no options
to save the show and in worst case you might loose your job.

I have been looking at military/industry grade computer components, like
power supply for hospitals and so on, motherbards design for factories,
displays with plexiclass, waterproof keyboads.

The biggest problem is how to make a ghost computer witch
smoofly could take over if something happens with the main computer.

Sebastian

[ffarrell]

HI

I totally agree with you about the Laptop. That's why I went to a 2 space server unit for our systems at www.ciallc.com

You are right, some but not all, have dual power supplies but thats easy to do. Look at the Digidesign Venue. It uses a standard dual hot swap able supply available at most server web stores. ( Not for laptops )

The Digidesign is one of the only digital desk that will keep passing audio even if the computer crashes. But you lose control of mixing. It stays in it's last state.

The cheaper desk are no better than analog if they die.

Now as far as SAC goes.

It's built on SAW's basic engine and I've been doing 100 shows a year for over 10 years with the systems I've built for Kenny Rogers.

Think of that over a 1000 loadin and loadouts,
1000 truck drives across pot hole and the like.
AND not one time has it failed in a show.

I carry a spare power supply - never used it.
I carry a ghosted drive - never used it.

just my 2 cents

fvf




Hi Ira

Have you already done some shows with SAC or are you jumping
directly into a Sheena Easton show with SAC and a laptop ?

Most digital mixers in the 50 -100000 dollers class have dual current supply, harddrives running mirror, madi with dual in/out, self healing
dsp cards routing if a dsp prossor goes dead.

You are going to perform a serie of shows with a standard laptop using
a tiny current supply using mobilphone connection, 4 or 6 pin firewire
connection for all audio in/out, build in single harddrive with no option
for backup.

If something is going wrong for you doing the show, you have no options
to save the show and in worst case you might loose your job.

I have been looking at military/industry grade computer components, like
power supply for hospitals and so on, motherbards design for factories,
displays with plexiclass, waterproof keyboads.

The biggest problem is how to make a ghost computer witch
smoofly could take over if something happens with the main computer.

Sebastian

[IraSeigel]

Hi Sebastian and Frank,
I'm not as skeptical as you are (Sebastian) about digital consoles (control surfaces). Other than not saving to memory often enough and pushing the wrong buttong on a 5D and losing my entire monitor mixes at soundcheck :) I haven't had any major problems.

I know the Soundcraft VI6 and VI4 also will pass audio if they lose power. We shut down ours after events at Benaroya Hall, going to a preset that allows an announce (VOG) mic before shutdown, and it's fine. I'm pretty sure the Mackie TT24 does, as well.

I do share your and Frank's skepticism about laptops, too. I've done plenty of small gigs with "carry-on" - my laptop and a Fireface 800 that I carry in a Gator shoulder bag designed for a small Korg keyboard (extra padding added). No problems with this simple setup.

I've done FOH gigs for bands and other events with the gear I described earlier - FF, Octamic, ADA8000 - but only FOH. No problems.

But I haven't used this rig to do monitors, and that's my next big (huge) step. For Sheena Easton's show, the 10 monitor mixes are almost more important than FOH, and certainly take the majority of soundcheck time to set up. So for these upcoming gigs, I'm considering using my gear to do the stage mixes. I'm needing some "shakedown" dates in the interim, to make sure I know what the heck I'm doing!

I'll probably use the sound company's splitter to take the inputs into my gear, sending the other side of the splitter down copper wire to FOH. Yes, I know I could do an FOH mix from the monitor position, but I'm not up for that (yet).

To do monitors, I'll probably have to go to a dual screen display eventually, so I'm looking at 2 checked bags - cha ching.

Much thanks for this conversation,
Ira

[sebastiandybing]

I am glad its working for you and I may be less sceptical when I have
done some more shows with SAC, next week I have choosen to be my
first "bigger" concert test. there will be 32 inputs, 5 or 6 output for FOH, 6 monitor sends, last night I got a message that a TV team will record
the concert and they want a feed, my concern is at what latency I have to use inorder to make picture and audio feel syncron.

Today I have been testing SAC at home for 12 houers, I made a mixer with 64 inputs from a RME madi card and connected 1 micstacy with some
mic´s and cd player and connected 1 remote machine. the hole setup where running stable at 1 buffer and 32 samples for the hole day.
At 1/32 without any processing the cpu meter was running at 30%,
at 1/128 it was down at 15%.
Anyway I am happy that the hole thing felt save.

Sebastian

[Bob L]

Sebastian... I have done video feeds with as much as 3 x 256 buffer settings... even at that... 18 ms is still less than one video frame at 33 ms.

If you use 2 x 64 or 3 x64... sounds like all will be well indeed.

Bob L

[sebastiandybing]

Thanks Bob,
Sebastian

[mycorn]

I think I'm resigned to traveling with my setup, as I'm skeptical that I'll consistently find sound companies that will provide ADAT or MADI out from their consoles.


at this point in time
i agree i believe this is your only
consistant option

even in the future when AD/DA converters show up at a gig
with the sound company
they will be as varied as the number of consoles
encountered today

it's pretty much
carry production
or deal with the local

if the boss is only gonna pay for one guy
make 'um pay for flyable production

FWIW

mike

<btw>
do you know Jeff Cowan?

mh

[IraSeigel]

Mike,
I believe you've summed up the comments in this thread pretty accurately. I agree with your assessment.

The name Jeff Cowan is very familiar - can you place him for me?

Regards,
Ira

[mycorn]

he's got a studio in socal and i believe he
did some time in that organization

[DominicPerry]

OK, finally got round to looking at one of these.
The Yamaha LS9 has a delay from input to Omni out of 2.5 m/s. The omni out is the far end of the signal chain , i.e. the signal has gone from A/D, through digital processing and then D/A. The architecture of the board isn't clear, so I can't tell at what point you get a digital feed. However, the A/D is 128 time oversampling, which, based on figures I've seen elsewhere, is going to give you about 0.5 - 1.0 m/s delay. Clearly, if the D/A is about the same (and they're never identical) there's only 0.5 - 1.5 m/s worth of internal processing for the whole thing. So even if digital output comes right at the end of the chain (and it probably comes earlier), you will get 1.5 - 2.0 m/s delay.
As you will have to put up with at least 0.5 m/s delay from any oversampling convertor you use, I guess my conclusion, for the LS9, based on supposition, miscalculation and ignorance is - no big deal -perhaps nothing , perhaps an additional millisecond.

Dominic

[DominicPerry]

DM1000V has an input to omni out of 1.6 m/s (at 48KHz). Even better.

Dominic

[DominicPerry]

PM1D has input to omni out delay of 3.4 m/s at 48KHz. Less good, but ....

All 3 of these boards I've looked at so far seem to have one or more slots that you populate with a variety of cards, including digital output cards. I think all the models share the boards (sensible idea). The block diagram of the PM1D is a little clearer than the others and implies that the output cards are fed immediately after the A/D, which means that you wouldn't suffer any of the internal precessing delays.

In fact, on closer inspection, the PM1D has three digital outputs, marked console, engine 1 and engine 2, so that implies a take off at different points in the signal flow. Clever, but complicated. I'm a bit out of my depth. Can you tell ;-)

Hope this helps rather than confuses.

Dominic