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DaveS
01-29-2009, 08:54 AM
I have two Hammerfall 9652 cards in one of my systems. More inputs then I need but they are there. I've setup SAC to take all of it's inputs and outputs from the first 9652. Only running two ADA8000's, works fine. The second 9652 is sync'd to the first one via the internal S/PDIF connection. Has one ADA8000. Again, works fine.

So, having two RME cards and supposedly their cards/drivers have been multi-client capable for while, I figured I would try loading Guitar Rig 3 into the system and setting up it's I/O off the second 9652. By itself it works great. So, I figured that I might be able to get Guitar Rig into SAC by interconnecting the third optical ports on both 9652's.

If I setup SAC and GR3 to run at the same time, you can see input into SAC and the output master shows signal going out, but nothing comes out of the main output. I think this is a driver issue because if I change which program I start first I either loose main output from one or the other programs. I wouldn't expect it to run any different if I ran between the ADA convertors...just one more chance for the signal to get degraded.

I do something similar on my other studio system but I am using a HDSP 9652 and a MOTU Traveler. This allows me to control Guitar Rig (or whatever audio processing like KORE) with MIDI and still use SAC for mixing. Works fine.

Is there something I am missing? I have thought about the WDM drivers - but I don't recall if Guitar Rig will work with them or not. It would be a bit of a bummer not being able to access both cards seperately. :(

Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

Bob L
01-29-2009, 07:10 PM
Some of the RME asio driver are multiclient... some are not.

But... you should not need to worry... you should be able to patch Guitar Rig in to a pre patch in SAC and plug your gtr into that chan input... should play thru with all the effects... if you want to use SAC eq and compression, you can adjust the Pre Patch point to be in front of the eq and dynamics section in the mixer menu.

Doing it this way leaves SAC as the only app contending for the soundcard output drivers.

Bob L

DaveS
01-29-2009, 08:19 PM
Thanks for the reply Bob!

I suspect that these drivers are not working 'quite right' and being that they are older cards, they probably never will. It would be nice though to be able to load two instances of the driver - one for each card - instead of the two cards sharing the same driver. That might mean one card couldn't be used with SAC (I can live with 26 channels in :)) I could then, theorectically, safely use GR on the second card... However I have not been able to find anyway to do that. I just spent a lot of time on the RME forums and support site looking for solutions...:(

GR works great inside of SAC...and the EQ on SAC work great as do the gates, compressor, etc.. However, I need to have MIDI input to GR to control settings like volume, balance and wah pedals, turning effects off and on, patch change, etc... which are features I really need. If MIDI in to a VST effect was implemented then this wouldn't be an issue at all. :D

And man would I be smiling!

Bob L
01-30-2009, 08:32 AM
I am looking into what it would take to get the midi control in a VST effect (as oppossed to Vsti synth)... we'll see what happens.

Bob L

DaveS
01-30-2009, 09:36 AM
That would be FANTASTIC! :D

Thanks!

tom_cellist
03-22-2009, 09:28 PM
Hi,
FWIW, my solution is to use the Plogue Bidule 32 bit VST in SS. Bidule at http://www.plogue.com/ , has a demo that will time out in another 10 wks or so. Bidule is a prerelease ver 0.9685, and is a VST patcher extraordinaire, also comes in standalone, and both 32 and 64 bit versions of VST and VSTi. Sort of a Rewire software, but maybe more controllable at the lower levels.

I am running XP64, SP2, SS 4.5, RME FF800, BCF2000. I was not able to overcome problems with SS and a VST/VSTi that has both input and output connections, Augustus Loop FX (ALFX), and I needed MIDI input to do realtime control of this wonderful effect. (http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8715&highlight=augustus+loop). BTW, ALFX doesn't run in Sonar either, I can access either the inputs of one instance, or the outputs of a different instance, but not the I/O of the same one.

The Augustus Loop developer recommended Bidule, and although not perfect, it is doing the job. I am a neophyte with Bidule, but have had some good success getting the job done without too much pain.

So, Dave, I have GR3-XE working with my BCF2000 and a foot pedal in all the GR versions I have on this machine: GR3 standalone 32 & 64 bit, as a VST32/64 inside the Bidule standalone 32/64 bit, and as a VST32 inside the Bidule VST 32 patched into the effects pre location inside SS.

For a test patch, I patched in GR3 the "Master Volume Audio out" selection for the "RK Pedal", using the GR3 learn function, and all appears to be fine, with an expression footpedal plugged into BCF, and GR3 responding. Apparently there are means to get BCF to do fader feedback from Bidule, but I have not attained that level of understanding yet.

One repeatable bad thing that happens is when I have the Bidule VST32 (patched to a MT in SS) do a Bidule VST plugin directory search/update inside SS - Bidule runs through it ok, but then SS and Bidule freeze up and I have to pull up Task Manager and put SS and Bidule "to sleep". But I just restart SS, Bidule comes up fine and sees the latest additions to the VST directory, and I am off and running. You have to start the SS transport or Rec-Ready to see stuff happening on the VST modules patched within Bidule.

Two VST additions I would love to see come available in a SS update concerning VST are: 1) the ability to patch both Input and Output of VST/VSTi, and 2) the ability to update SS with new VST added to the VSTPlugin directory after SS has opened.

Tom

Pedro Itriago
03-23-2009, 12:18 AM
2) the ability to update SS with new VST added to the VSTPlugin directory after SS has opened.

Why would someone want to install a plug-in with the program running?????? Is this what you want to do?

DaveS
03-23-2009, 06:49 AM
Tom -do I understand you correctly in that if I run GR3 inside Bidule which is running as a VST effect in Saw Studio or - more importantly for me - SAC - I should be able to process audio coming in the the SS or SAC channel and still be able to have MIDI control over GR3 parameters? If so that might be what I need.

Does bidule access the midi ports outside of Saw or is it limited to the one selected by Saw?

IraSeigel
03-23-2009, 08:28 AM
...

I am running XP64, SP2, SS 4.5, RME FF800, BCF2000. I was not able to overcome problems with SS and a VST/VSTi that has both input and output connections, Augustus Loop FX (ALFX), and I needed MIDI input to do realtime control of this wonderful effect. (http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8715&highlight=augustus+loop). BTW, ALFX doesn't run in Sonar either, I can access either the inputs of one instance, or the outputs of a different instance, but not the I/O of the same one.

...
Tom

Tom,
The Augustus Loop that you reference in your post above can be found at this site - http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/augustusloop.html - not at the site whose address you posted.

Just thought I'd save folks the trouble...:)

Ira

tom_cellist
03-23-2009, 12:41 PM
Tom,
The Augustus Loop that you reference in your post above can be found at this site - http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/augustusloop.html - not at the site whose address you posted.

Just thought I'd save folks the trouble...:)

Ira


It's great to see there's an audio product named after a character in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.:) (Augustus Gloop)

The link didn't work for me, but this did:

http://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/

Thanks Ira and Ian !! that bad url I posted is still haunting me.

**************************
Dave's question, a quote:
Tom -do I understand you correctly in that if I run GR3 inside Bidule which is running as a VST effect in Saw Studio or - more importantly for me - SAC - I should be able to process audio coming in the the SS or SAC channel and still be able to have MIDI control over GR3 parameters? If so that might be what I need.

Does bidule access the midi ports outside of Saw or is it limited to the one selected by Saw?
**************************** apologies for my quoting techniques!

In answer to your question Dave, I believe Bidule finds its own. I will find out more soon, I joined the Bidule forum today to get more info.

I was using just a single BCF2000 for controller; I also have a CME VX-8 controller that I can add in, I should be able to confirm your midi port selection question with that. The VX-8 has Mackie emulation available also, so I should be able to control faders in SS, and GR3 with BCF in Bidule.

Bidule won't load the BCF module (USB Audio Device on MIDI devices I/O) if it was selected in SS, but if I selected my RME FF800 or selected "no selection" for MIDI input device in SS, then Bidule was able to get to the BCF2000 without problems. The BCF functions just fine in SS, (either as the Mackie control with the SS template, or as a BCF with the new Behringer 8 ch template -after the sysex upload via MIDI Ox and save) if not being used in Bidule.

BTW, if not for the SS/SAC forum I would have had a tough time getting my BCF to become a Behringer in SS. Thanks to all that provide assistance and of course thanks always to the MasterCareGiver, Bob.:)

Bidule has MIDI monitor modules, some other diagnostics and tools that work within its confines, amazing considering still in official prerelease.

Tom

tom_cellist
03-23-2009, 12:53 PM
Why would someone want to install a plug-in with the program running?????? Is this what you want to do?

Pedro,

I have been testing lots of plugins lately and I usually have everything in the correct directory for SS. However, Bidule, (the VST I recently began using that lets you run VST modules that have both Inputs and Outputs - those currently won't run for me by themselves in SS), can look there, but I have been keeping the two directories separate, and I don't know how to get the Bidule VST to update its own VSTplugin directory without being in SS.

I can do it in the Bidule standalone, but I think the VST version requires its own scan.

In any case, after the freeze and then ending the programs with Task Manager, SS comes right up, Bidule loads fine, and everything worksl

Tom

tom_cellist
03-23-2009, 09:47 PM
Tom -do I understand you correctly in that if I run GR3 inside Bidule which is running as a VST effect in Saw Studio or - more importantly for me - SAC - I should be able to process audio coming in the the SS or SAC channel and still be able to have MIDI control over GR3 parameters? If so that might be what I need.

Does bidule access the midi ports outside of Saw or is it limited to the one selected by Saw?

Hi Dave,

Well, I am able to report success. I can work the SS board with a Mackie Control emulation on my VX8, and GR3 sees a volume pedal via the BCF2000, with GR3 running in Bidule.

In answer to your question, I am not sure just yet which MIDI is which, but I believe I am working around the main SS MIDI as it is patched to the VX8 running the U-CTRL mode 1, which is Mackie Control, and the GR3 is talking to me through the BCF and a pedal and SS doesn't complain, as the BCF is not selected in the MIDI device menu, although present. I have not tried the converse as yet, using the BCF to run SS, and the VX8 to work GR3.

Here is my setup:

again, XP64 SP2, SS 4.5, Bidule 32bit VST, RME FF800, CME VX8 ver 2.0, BCF2000.

Midi ch 1 is selected on the GR3-XE, I am playing the RK pedal setup as master audio out, using the BCF2000 footpedal on CH1, CC5 of BCF. I don't own the fullup GR3, nor the Rig Kontrol, so this is my current best shot. BCF is in mode U1, and in Behringer mode, not any of the emulation modes for this test.

The VX-8 comes into SS 4.5 as USB Audio Device [2] note bracket. This part was tricky, as I had problems distinguishing the BCF from the VX8 as both are given names of USB Audio Device, and the BCF on my machine is (2), while the VX8 is [2]. I ended up trying each separately first to verify performance before putting them together. I believe this identity issue is an issue with the operating system folks, but there might be a method to give the two a different alias within SS.

Anyway, my success sure didn't happen the first time, and seemed to be dependent upon the order in which I loaded the BCF and the VX8, I have to admit I don't completely understand just yet why it worked 4th time and not the first.:)

I have a screenshot of one of the monitors loaded up with stuff, if I can figure out how to host or post.

BTW, I own SAC, but have only looked and not touched as yet, shameful yes, but there it is.

Tom

tom_cellist
03-24-2009, 12:47 AM
Here is a little followup.

both the controller working SS (VX8 in this test) and the controller working GR3 within Bidule (BCF2000 hosting a footpedal in this test) have some sayso as to audio level, even though the MIDI functionality appears to be quite independent. (more on this...) So, the VX8 controller working in this case as a Mackie Control, has ultimate say on the MT 1 track fader, but the BCF hosted pedal on the GR3 output vol within Bidule controls the GR3 level to the channel.

Also, nothing is patched special in Bidule; meaning, there is a wonderful "parameter" window that allows selection of a midi path from any applicable device module currently in the current patch/file to any available path in any other applicable device module in the current patch/file. Parameter is a list window used to accomplish the creation and editing of the path. But I am not using anything concerning this.

one small nag about bidule vst32 is that the delete key does not work, removal or modules or cables requires a rightclick to access a menu. Delete key works fine in standalone.

And currently with the VX8, I can report an interesting behavior; by design, it is able to switch between a mackie control emulator (1 of 3 emulations) and its default mode without turning the power off like the BCF2000. And in a late test just now, apparently I have it selected for both SS and Bidule as MIDI, I apologize for the confusion here as to how exactly, as earlier I was having issues not being able to connect to a single controller in both SS and Bidule simultaneously. But its late enough that I have to leave it at that for the moment.

So, within SS, with Rec-ready on or rolling in Record, I can switch the VX8 on the fly between the emulation (Uctrl mode 1) and its default mode as an 88 note keyboard with MIDI control out including pedals, and have the controls follow and function correctly respectively to each program - as Mackie to SS, and BCF to GR3. Except one issue is that having the same controller component, example fader #1, used for different purposes in each respective application, this will lead to problems and unexpected changes in audio due to having entirely different control physical/electrical position requirement between the 2 apps.

Any issues I have had seem to be which controller is powered up first. The situation I describe above occurred during a test that included rebooting and, when control of the Bidule module appeared to have failed following reboot, reload of SS and power cycle the USB controllers, I found that the VX8 was providing the input to GR3, not my intent, and apparently due to which controller XP recognized first, the VX8 or the BCF, or some furtherly lower level anomaly, like if the VX8 was in Mackie mode when SS was started, or was in default. I will have to do more testing later. SS was preferentially saved to USB Audio device [2], which apparently had changed to the VX8 from the BCF following the power cycle as far as Bidule was concerned, but SS was ok. Bidule seems to lose the link to the correct MIDI input device.

And I will have to try this purposefully in the other version, with the BCF doing the BCF template control of SS, and let the VX8 host a volume/expression pedal to control the GR3 within Bidule. The VX8 is in the loop here really just for convenience of test as I have only 1 BCF.


Tom

tom_cellist
03-24-2009, 11:42 PM
Issues with BCF2000 working or not within SS seem to be related to incompetence on the part of the chronicler.

Always important to select correct BCF program, and to have correct template loaded in SS. I got confused with the Behringer between Mackie control mode, and correct BCF mode for SS versus correct BCF mode for Bidule.

The order of initiating the USB MIDI controllers needs to be specified to remove it as a major headache factor, and so, if the BCF powers up first, then it is the "USB Audio Device", and the VX8 or whatever becomes "USB Audio Device (2)" or "..[2]" and probably more; although the RME is always found with its common name. This is probably old news.

If SS has an assigned controller, Bidule will not load it, and loading a patch or group with a MIDI controller that is not available has that component highlighted in red.

First test had success with 3 different MIDI input controllers simultaneously showing control data input to MIDI monitor windows in Bidule running in SS. No controller assigned for SS.

2nd successful test was assigning the BCF as a "BCF for 8 Ch SS" controller for SS faders etc, and used VX8 in its default standard mode with the footpedal and a footswitch to control GR3 running in Bidule inside SS. This is likely the most typical way of doing it, and the 2nd controller for the GR3 could be your choice.

Finally, in a 3rd test, no SS assignment for controller, but with BCF controlling in Bidule running in SS, using BCF in "standard BCF" mode, hosting the two pedals, I can run the GR3 with pedals, and have the BCF run a mixer within Bidule. And Bidule mixer has fader feedback with the BCF and MIDI learning to help make the connections.


This was SS 4.5, Bidule 0.9685, XP64 SP2, BCF2000 templates and sysex load, VX8 ver 2.0, GR3-XE 3.2

Tom

Bob L
03-25-2009, 04:21 AM
You should load the BCF drivers... this will then change the USB Audio Device to BCF2000 in the listbox.... and my guess is the data stream should be handled much better than with the generic Windows UBS driver.

Bob L

DaveS
03-25-2009, 07:57 AM
I'll have to try Bidule and see if it will do the job. All I really want to be able to do is plug GR3 into an effects slot in SAC/SAW and control it with a Yamaha MFX-10 midi foot controller. Of course being able to plug other VST effects in other channels controlling them with external controllers like a BCF/BCR-2000 would be great too.

Did I read the Plogue web site correctly that to use Bidule VST you need to be registered? Is that a paid thing or are they running it as a free beta as well?

Bob L
03-25-2009, 09:28 AM
Does the GR3 show up in SS as a VSTi synth? Is the Assign Midi Port option available on the VST window blue pyramid logo or is it grayed out?

Bob L

tom_cellist
03-25-2009, 10:19 PM
You should load the BCF drivers... this will then change the USB Audio Device to BCF2000 in the listbox.... and my guess is the data stream should be handled much better than with the generic Windows UBS driver.

Bob L

Great advice, but unfortunately there is somewhat an issue with x64 driver support and the Behringer BCF/R devices; the updated drivers do not load in XP64, apparently this has been problematic for some time. The default MS version for XP64 Pro which is 2003 Server is in use here, thats 5.2.3790.1830, 10/1/2002. I am running XP64 SP2.

I have seen no reports of successful multiple BCF/R in XP64 using USB, according to web discussions I read this evening. I tried with my BCF with no success. The other controller used here, the CME VX8, also does not have a product specific driver, so hence the source of the confusion.

The solution for me in XP64 is one of timing, ie powering up the controllers in a specific and repeated order so that I can have confidence that the controller described as "USB Audio Device X" is actually the the one I think it is.

Otherwise, my easiest solution was to use Bidule in a diagnostic mode - I have a patch that just sets up the controllers, each to a MIDI data monitor window; the controllers have their confusing names of course. I can then sort out which is which in Bidule simply by moving the control and seeing which window is showing data in. Once I have identified which name is actually the BCF, I remove it in Bidule, activate it in SS, load the palette, and presto, the BCF controls SS, and the other controller is working the VSTs in Bidule running in SS.

BTW, the GR3 software here is a VST, and no options show up when it is loaded directly into SS 4.5, in pre effects location. The Assign Midi Port option on the VST window blue pyramid logo is grayed out. The GR3-XE here is version 3.2, the XE is a somewhat lite version of the main one.


I'll have to try Bidule and see if it will do the job. All I really want to be able to do is plug GR3 into an effects slot in SAC/SAW and control it with a Yamaha MFX-10 midi foot controller. Of course being able to plug other VST effects in other channels controlling them with external controllers like a BCF/BCR-2000 would be great too.



I think that you will have a great time with it, especially if you are not running x64, the driver issue for multiple BCF/R is the limiting factor there.


Did I read the Plogue web site correctly that to use Bidule VST you need to be registered? Is that a paid thing or are they running it as a free beta as well?

You can get the free standalone, its a 3 month demo with timeout, and it was released St. Pat's Day. But what you want is the VST and/or VSTi versions, which need to be purchased. Try the demo for getting the control of the GR3, and maybe make the decision on that. If you have the time to play with the standalone a little, you will see that it is possible to have good control. Then imagine it running within the wonderful SS/SAC environment with SS optimized BCF/R MIDI, and your favorite pedal controller taking care of the GR3.

I think that you could also run BCF/Rs in Bidule, along with the others running in SS, but I have not been able to test that. There may be an issue with multiple IDs. On the Bidule forum is a thread describing MIDI feedback control of the BCF with a mixer module all within Bidule, and it is a very simple patch that makes it happen.

As a tool, Bidule has enabled some wonderful MIDI control and has allowed for patch bay fun with signal processing that I have been waiting years for. It handles VSTs I could not run otherwise. The integration of this new creative space with SS was a bit of a learning curve over the past few weeks or so, but was worth it for me.


Tom

DaveS
03-26-2009, 07:26 AM
Does the GR3 show up in SS as a VSTi synth? Is the Assign Midi Port option available on the VST window blue pyramid logo or is it grayed out?

Bob L

As Tom mentioned - it shows up as a VST effect - no midi port selections. I guess since it processes audio it is considered an effect.

Bob L
03-26-2009, 10:40 AM
Ok... well... I am working on an extension to the code to try to give midi access directly to VST plugs that do not register as a synth... originally, there was never a reason to pass midi directly to an effect plugin... until later they started using midi for automation and remote control of paramters in certain plugs.

Bob L

DaveS
03-26-2009, 01:25 PM
Bob - that would be great if you could do it (actually, I KNOW you can - it's just a matter of when..:))

I believe Forte by Brainspawn has a way of doing it as does some of the other hosts out there.

Native Instruments KORE 2 does it as well - but it's not a DAW -it's a hosting program.

Thanks for looking into this! I know I would appreciate being able to use it for GR3 - as well as controlling other VST effect programs.

Pedro Itriago
03-26-2009, 03:51 PM
Well, if I remember correctly, the old DSP/FX could be controlled via midi

DaveS
03-27-2009, 06:59 AM
That's a plug-in package I haven't used in years...and I believe you are right...but was that under SawStudio or SawPro?

Hmm...

Pedro Itriago
03-27-2009, 08:09 AM
That's a plug-in package I haven't used in years...and I believe you are right...but was that under SawStudio or SawPro?

Hmm...

Sawplus, then Pro.

MikeDee
03-27-2009, 10:54 AM
I got DSP/FX working under SAWStudio...a bit quirky but functional, for the most part.

Of course, on those rare occasions I decide to use one of these plugs, I immediately assume the role of Sir SaveALot...I never know when the plug is gonna hang SS or cause it to disappear altogether. :eek::D [Able to smile 'cause I save after every edit when using DSP/FX...of course, the .uxx files help, too.]