Potential SAC user

[gdougherty]

I've been looking at SAC for the last 6-12 months, ever since some loudmouth bums started singing its praises over at BillFitzmaurice.com ;). It's progressing nicely since I first downloaded the demo. I'm especially excited about the output processing that's coming up. Bob, very impressive for a one man coding team. :) I've worked on several teams and your output and code quality given the amount of stuff you're working on deserves high praise.

I own an original Yamaha O1v, my first digital board and I've fallen in love with digital mixing and how compact it makes my FOH setup. I sold off a large 32 channel Soundcraft board in hopes of purchasing the latest O1v96VCM with a MY16AT expansion, then adding preamps to get it out to 32 channels. I have an M-Audio ProFire 2626 right now and planned on adding 2 more because I like how they sound for the price.

My current problem is that I'm back to seriously considering a SAC rig, but now instead of using for an installed system at my church, it's actually feasible that I could assemble one for my portable system. From a feature standpoint, I've looked at both and decided I could be happy with either. SAC has tons of features that put it more in league with the LS9 or larger boards way out of my price range, but in reality, the O1v96 can do everything I really need. DCA's, dynamics processing, multi-band EQ, built-in FX. I get by with two monitor mixes and plan to grow that into 4 with 2 spare for IEM's if anyone has their own. With Studio Manager I can mix remotely and eliminate my analog snakes just like I can with SAC.

Most of the time I'm on my own doing small venue performances at prisons, rehab centers, halfway homes, etc. and I'm comfortable enough with SAC that I'd have no problems using it as my FOH/monitor setup. The big question I have is whether or not SAC would be ideal in all situations. 99***37; of the time I'm with the system, however I've had events where different volunteers ran FOH over the course of a week and I wasn't there to hand-hold their session with bands switching out every 2 hours. In some cases it required a completely different setup with no real prior knowledge of input needs. With my O1v things went pretty well. It's not that big a jump from an analog console once you adjust to aux on faders and selected channel controls rather than full channel strips.

From comments here on the board it sounds like an experienced mixer could walk onto a configured SAC system and mix successfully without hicups, but the people who I let mix aren't always the most experienced, and there are times where the system may not be as configured as they'd need. This is probably my biggest worry about going with a SAC system.

I also have a question about SAC sound quality comparisons. I've not mixed on any of the big analog boards people favorably compare SAC to, though I've used some higher end boards from Soundcraft, Allen & Heath, and the M7CL. One thing I've seen in Digital Snake reviews is constant amazement at how removing several hundred feet of copper cabling from the equation instantly improves the clarity of any setup. It seems that improved clarity is also a consistent comment about SAC's quality and so I'm curious if this new found clarity, especially in comparison to other boards, is gained despite still using copper snakes or whether the majority of people are placing the input rack on stage and eliminating the snake as well.
The SAC engine sounds very good to my ears, but I haven't demo'd it next to my O1v without all the copper in-line. I'm an old compression codec audio quality guy and well aware of how our minds will tell us something sounds better just because it's new or different, and how much emotional attachment can affect our perception. If I can't A/B something I tend to take things with a bigger grain of salt. Perhaps it's naivete on my part, but I'm quite happy with the mixes I get, even on my O1v. I have heard major improvements in sound quality in the past moving from low-end boards to higher end boards, so I wouldn't call myself deaf to improvements by any stretch. I'm mostly wondering if I'd get even 80% of the way towards SAC just by dumping the copper.

Another concern I have, is probably a question only Bob can answer. What are the business continuity plans for RMLLabs, and what happens if, God forbid, something happens that prevents Bob from continuing work on either SAC and/or SAW? SAC is very usable in it's current form, but I'm sure small bugs would continue to be found on occasion and I'd expect, as with many open source projects that lose a main developer, it would kill a lot of enthusiasm for the product.

My budget right now is right at $2600 and that jumps me into either setup at a usable point. What I wish I had was a full featured demo of SAC I could run in a live test and/or compare head to head if I could also find an O1v96 to borrow. With the random volume drops though, it's not anything that I'd be willing to try in a live stress situation and I can't afford to purchase anything then later decide it's not going to work out.

I passed the demo and a 28 channel large band setup with VCA's and monitors configured to a number of sound guys I know asking for their feedback on usability, but I'm still waiting for results. Any thoughts and input from people here would be much appreciated.

[Bob L]

Only you can make the choice... SAC offers you the ability to replace consoles much beyond your normal budget... and for the price you get 25 consoles at the same time....

I can't answer for any possibilities of something happening to me to take me out of the game, but my plans are such that I am in for the long haul... this is my life's dedication... as already I have stuck it out for 18 years with SAW.

As to the audio quality difference between SAC and other digital or analog consoles... it seems to be EXTREMELY obvious to EVERYONE that listens... with or without long copper runs... with even the cheapest of cheap Behringer mic pres.... you can test and hear it even with the demo... ignore the volume drops and explore the possibilities.

Good Luck,

Bob L

[dbarrow]

I built a 32in/32out system about a month ago using a current fast Intel computer, RME RayDAT, 4 Behringer ADA8000's, etc. With the shock mount 12u rack that houses the system, the whole thing ran about $4K. I have done about twelve shows with it for a band that varies from five core members up to 10pc with added female singer and horns. The system has performed flawlessly and the difference in sound quality is STARTLING! At several clubs and local hotel gigs members of other bands have come up and remarked on the stunning difference in quality. These are people that saw and heard pretty much the same show a few weeks before the changeover. At EVERY show venue employees, wedding coordinators, clients and guests of the events, etc. have come up and asked about the system. They immediately notice that there isn't this huge console with FX racks, massive cabling hookups and a snake running around the room AND they notice the sound quality. Several "less than knowledgeable" people even thought it had to be fake, since it sounded so good.

My FOH setup now consists of a notebook computer and a Behringer BCF2000 fader surface. The whole thing fits on a 2x2 foot table made by placing the cover from the stage shock mount rack on an X-stand and putting a tablecloth from the venue over it. It requires only an AC outlet.

The band noticed the difference in audio quality over their monitor mix immediately. Between that and having clients come up to them and remark on the improvement in sound quality or just that it sounds so good (from people that haven't heard them before, but have heard other bands) they are practically giddy about the new possibilities.

My only issue (and it's a minor one) is not being able to directly view and edit the plugin FX parameters. I briefly used Netsupport Manager to log in to the host computer's desktop remotely to view and edit the FX plugins, but that caused a slight "warbling" in the audio as the CPU cycles were being hogged by Netsupport Manager. Bob has stated that he will make the FX presets saveable withing scenes in an upcoming update. That will solve the last remaining "issue" I have with the program. For so me people this might not even be an issue.

I mixed the same band with a Yamaha PM5D the other night at the Glass Cactus in Grapevine, TX and I thought the sound was actually a bit better with SAC. It is hard to compare, because that club had completely different speakers, etc., but I got a sense of the quality of the Yamaha board and I think SAC sounds better. SAC is also more flexible than the PM5D (for me, anyway). The one thing I would like to have from the PM5D is the FX engines. If there was an "FX engine" like the Yamah boards have built i to SAC to where you could select an effect, change and store parameters, etc.; I think SAC would be virtually untouchable. I would love to see that feature bult in to SAC that was directly accessable, like the EQ and dynamics.

My sense is that once you use and adapt to the SAC philosphy you will never go back. It just makes so many aspects of mixing a show so simple AND being able to recall everything the next time you have a similar show is something you are probably already in love with form other digital consoles.

[Wink0r]

I am a relatively new SAC user and had no digital experience prior to my first time out with SAC. To date I have only used the SAC system one time without a snake. Running through the snake there is a definite sound quality improvement over my good analog desks through the same racks and stacks. I notice improved definition on all signal sources.

[dbarrow]

I am a relatively new SAC user and had no digital experience prior to my first time out with SAC. To date I have only used the SAC system one time without a snake. Running through the snake there is a definite sound quality improvement over my good analog desks through the same racks and stacks. I notice improved definition on all signal sources.

I'm working on selling the idea of a SAC system to a church I do sound for every Sunday. They already have a sound booth, snake etc., so the system wouldn't have to be wireless. The host computer could actually go back in the booth at the FOH position and have all the inputs come from the stage via the existing snake. This may seem obvious, but I have already gotten used to the idea of having the host rack on stage from the SAC system I current mix on and having a wireless versus snake connection. One benefit of having the host rack at FOH is direct access to the preamp trim levels. This hasn't been a huge issue with the rack being on stage, but I can see the benefit of having access to those knobs versus having to go to the stage to adjust them.

[mloretitsch]

I've been looking at SAC for the last 6-12 months, ever since some loudmouth bums started singing its praises over at BillFitzmaurice.com ;)

I can't stand those guys over there! Oh wait...that was me. Nice to see you over here. :)

[Wink0r]

So far I have kept the rig out front for a combination of reasons. One of those is not entirely trusting the cheap wifi radio that I put into my remote unit, although I put it on stage and used it for monitors at a recent event without real problems. I am still carrying an analog desk as a backup most of the time. The SAC rig has been reliable without problem, but I often work far away from my warehouse and I usually carry spares for many things.

[gdougherty]

I'm working on selling the idea of a SAC system to a church I do sound for every Sunday. They already have a sound booth, snake etc., so the system wouldn't have to be wireless. The host computer could actually go back in the booth at the FOH position and have all the inputs come from the stage via the existing snake. This may seem obvious, but I have already gotten used to the idea of having the host rack on stage from the SAC system I current mix on and having a wireless versus snake connection. One benefit of having the host rack at FOH is direct access to the preamp trim levels. This hasn't been a huge issue with the rack being on stage, but I can see the benefit of having access to those knobs versus having to go to the stage to adjust them.

I figured it wouldn't be a big deal for most of my stuff to have the preamps on stage. It'll just be a change in use to where I can make any adjustments I need up on stage for inputs, simultaneously adjust monitor levels, then grab the laptop and mix FOH. If I have a spare volunteer traveling along it'd be good to stick them on monitor duty. I may be overly optimistic on how that'll work out. It'll take an adjustment in gain setting to where I leave myself excessive headroom at the preamps, then make up whatever I might need with attenuation.

One thing that would be really nice to have is recallable preamps, if only to cut down on the number of channels needed for a large show with multiple bands where gain settings need to move with bands but there isn't time. I suppose a picture with my iPhone may work as well.

[gdougherty]

I can't stand those guys over there! Oh wait...that was me. Nice to see you over here. :)

Thanks for the tip on SAC, or maybe I shouldn't thank you. It'd be an easy choice just going with the Yamaha I'd been looking at and not sweating any of the pros and cons. :D

[dbarrow]

Thanks for the tip on SAC, or maybe I shouldn't thank you. It'd be an easy choice just going with the Yamaha I'd been looking at and not sweating any of the pros and cons. :D

You may find that the Yamaha doesn't actually sound as good and that there are cool things you can do with SAC that you could never do with a "fixed" hardware console. Plus, the software is continuously upgradeable. You can log in to SAC with multiple notebook computers. I believe you can only login in once with the Yamaha consoles. Several of all stage musicians could have separate control over there own monitor mixes.

All we need now is an iPhone app to control individual monitor mixes in a small, elegant way...

[Brent Evans]

I can't stand those guys over there!

Well I Never!! :D

BFM and RML... audio excellence!

I'm acquiring parts for both. Good to see you guys.

[mloretitsch]

Thanks for the tip on SAC, or maybe I shouldn't thank you. It'd be an easy choice just going with the Yamaha I'd been looking at and not sweating any of the pros and cons. :D


LOL Man I know the feeling! I was very fortunate to pick up a lot of jobs so I was able to pay for my SAC system outright without selling any other gear. My gl2200 is still for sale however :) Not my two 01v's, they've earned the right to stay. Super versatile little boards! I think it's great that some of us small providers get to access the same powerful software the bigger guys can use too. I spent some time before hand with my friend yelling into a vocal mic, putting a mic on a kick drum etc. so I could get some idea of general gain on the preamps. I know on many board I can just walk up and set the gain at some starting point, and that's what I wanted in SAC. It's incredibly quiet so you can gain up in software quite a bit more.

I just thought of something...remote gains will prevent BE's from mixing on the gains..something that drives me up the WALL. You'd be surprised how many people do it....good engineers too. *shakes head*

[gdougherty]

You may find that the Yamaha doesn't actually sound as good and that there are cool things you can do with SAC that you could never do with a "fixed" hardware console. Plus, the software is continuously upgradeable. You can log in to SAC with multiple notebook computers. I believe you can only login in once with the Yamaha consoles. Several of all stage musicians could have separate control over there own monitor mixes.

All we need now is an iPhone app to control individual monitor mixes in a small, elegant way...

Correct, Studio Manager connects via USB on the O1v96. You can then run a wireless USB extender (not really recommended) or a CAT5 USB extender.
I've been playing around with SAC wired up to my ProFire2626 and laptop. Despite running Vista, it's been pretty solid. 4x128 buffers and only a handful of slipped output buffers with a 25% load on 29 channels, 2 monitor mixes and a few VST plugins I'm playing with. The more I play with it and dig into the manual, the more I like it. The laptop display did pretty well on the porch this afternoon with slightly overcast skies. That was another potential issue. I'll have to get a mouse for the laptop because the trackpad really doesn't work for extended usage. In the short term as a trial, or low budget alternative, the laptop and ProFire work quite well. The RayDat and a dedicated PC will work even better, especially since I can feed my DCX2496 via AES and never leave the digital domain til it heads for the amps.

[gdougherty]

LOL Man I know the feeling! I was very fortunate to pick up a lot of jobs so I was able to pay for my SAC system outright without selling any other gear. My gl2200 is still for sale however :) Not my two 01v's, they've earned the right to stay. Super versatile little boards! I think it's great that some of us small providers get to access the same powerful software the bigger guys can use too. I spent some time before hand with my friend yelling into a vocal mic, putting a mic on a kick drum etc. so I could get some idea of general gain on the preamps. I know on many board I can just walk up and set the gain at some starting point, and that's what I wanted in SAC. It's incredibly quiet so you can gain up in software quite a bit more.

I just thought of something...remote gains will prevent BE's from mixing on the gains..something that drives me up the WALL. You'd be surprised how many people do it....good engineers too. *shakes head*

Actually, keeping my O1v as a backup and alternative for the gigs where I don't feel SAC is the best choice is what I'm leaning toward at the moment. I hadn't planned on selling it either way, and it's the logical solution to that problem.

Agreed on the mixing by gains. Not sure why you'd want to mess with the gains all the time. I have a young pup at church who messes with them now and then after we've checked monitors and doesn't seem to recall my gentle reminders that gain adjustments require monitor level adjustments across the board unless people are complaining.
I only touch them when I realize how poorly a drummer or vocalist followed my request to give me a really hot signal level. One thing I'm liking on SAC is the color coded meters. The input meters on the O1v are such a low resolution it's hard to tell exactly where the signal is hitting between -18db and -12db. I like the analog equivalent of 0db set at -16db. Gives good headroom without worrying too much over clipping.

[RBIngraham]

My current problem is that I'm back to seriously considering a SAC rig, but now instead of using for an installed system at my church, it's actually feasible that I could assemble one for my portable system. From a feature standpoint, I've looked at both and decided I could be happy with either. SAC has tons of features that put it more in league with the LS9 or larger boards way out of my price range, but in reality, the O1v96 can do everything I really need. DCA's, dynamics processing, multi-band EQ, built-in FX. I get by with two monitor mixes and plan to grow that into 4 with 2 spare for IEM's if anyone has their own. With Studio Manager I can mix remotely and eliminate my analog snakes just like I can with SAC..

I own a ProMix 01 and a 01V myself and I've worked with just about all the Yamaha digitals on shows except for the PM5D and PM1D. (01V96, 02R, 03D, DM2000, LS9, and M7CL to be exact) So I'm fairly comfortable with just about any Yammy Digital.

Something to keep in mind, yes Yamaha has Studio Manager and it works, OK. It's not great, it's buggy and finicky sometimes. But it's also not anywhere near as slick as what Bob has done with SAC. A few points.

It only allows 1 client at a time, where SAC can have, what is it? 28 clients or something crazy like that...

In the case of your 01V96 it's a USB or MIDI connection between the console and the software. So it's not as simple as just plugging the thing into a computer network and running Studio Manager on the laptop. You would have to run either a CAT6 USB extender out from the desk (yes this works, I've done it a few times) or you would have a local computer running Studio Manager that you then remote desktop into, or you run some really long pair of MIDI lines. (yes, you can run long MIDI lines even though the offical spec states only 50') Only the LS9 and M7CL have built in Ethernet ports that allow you to just pop the console onto a standard computer network and roam the room with a laptop and Studio Manager. Even the PM5D and PM1D do not have that functionality.



Most of the time I'm on my own doing small venue performances at prisons, rehab centers, halfway homes, etc. and I'm comfortable enough with SAC that I'd have no problems using it as my FOH/monitor setup. The big question I have is whether or not SAC would be ideal in all situations. 99% of the time I'm with the system, however I've had events where different volunteers ran FOH over the course of a week and I wasn't there to hand-hold their session with bands switching out every 2 hours. In some cases it required a completely different setup with no real prior knowledge of input needs. With my O1v things went pretty well. It's not that big a jump from an analog console once you adjust to aux on faders and selected channel controls rather than full channel strips..

I had similar concerns myself in this area and I don't think anyone can really answer for your exact situation. However I actually think it would be more difficult to convince a seasoned engineer/mixer to feel comfortable on SAC rather than convincing a volunteer, student, or less experienced board op to embrace SAC. Because that person with more experience will be used to walking up to a hardware console and probably has preconcieved notions (correct or not) about mixing sound on a computer. As long as the volunteer is not afaird of computer technology I don't think you would have too many problems. My board op on my first show with SAC (that just opened a few weeks ago) is a retired music teacher (high school and middle school, lets just say well along in her life...) and while she was a bit nervous she had worked with me before on other shows and she knows I know how to set things up for less experienced ops in a way to make it as simple and easy to operate as possible. So she trusted me that I would make SAC just as easy for her and so far she seems resonablly comfortable. She is also fairly computer knowledgeable so that helps.




I also have a question about SAC sound quality comparisons. I've not mixed on any of the big analog boards people favorably compare SAC to, though I've used some higher end boards from Soundcraft, Allen & Heath, and the M7CL. One thing I've seen in Digital Snake reviews is constant amazement at how removing several hundred feet of copper cabling from the equation instantly improves the clarity of any setup. It seems that
.

Well I have not witnesses the sound quality difference myself except to say that I've used SAC on one show and I was happy with the sound quality. I have not done any side by side comparisons so I can not say, yes it blows the 01V or anything else out of the water all other things being eqaul. Some day I will have to tinker with that. But the rest of the gear in my sound rigs are probably not great enough to notice differences either. But I want to do a side by side some day when I have time for that.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if SAC sounded better than a M7CL or the LS9. These two desks have a deserved reputation for... shall we say... less than exciting mic preamps. The Yamaha stuff also regularly has workclock issues and many a engineer will throw on a dedicated wordclock generator onto their Yamaha digital to make it sound better. (Yes, I have witnessed this in an A/B test and it works, even a PM5D sounds better when it's not depending on it's built in wordclock) So lots of people are buying wordclocks for their LS9 and M7CLs to help make them sound better. Funny how you have to spend more money to make your $20K console sound better. Actually the 01V96 sounds better than a M7 for my money. :)

The v96 series use the same preamps and those sound pretty decent as do the DM series consoles. It's just the LS9 and M7 that have the lack luster preamp issues. But they just about all have wordclock issues. So it not uncommon to see someone with all sorts of external boxes on a LS9 or M7 trying to make it sound better. :)

At least this is common in my world of theatre sound, not sure if it is in the music world or not...



My budget right now is right at $2600 and that jumps me into either setup at a usable point. What I wish I had was a full featured demo of SAC I could run in a live test and/or compare head to head if I could also find an O1v96 to borrow. .

Well I personally feel my SAC purchase is one of the best $500 I've spent in a while. Of course I already had a lot of the other parts, pretty much all of them, to make SAC work. But I picked up a PIV refurbished computer for less than $250 and I have it running a show mixing 16 inputs to 8 outputs and doing some fairly signifigant amount of effects processing and it's only running at slightly over 20 percent on the SAC meter. I think you could assemble a SAC system for around the same price as a 01V96 if you shoped wisely that was able to do a heck of a lot more than the 01V96 can do. Of course I was just happy to not be stuck only with the Yamaha reverbs which never sound great to my ear with out a ton of tweaking. I now use Plug-Ins which have presets I pretty much like "right out of the box" so to speak, or they are a lot more useable with no tweaks, lets put it that way.

So unless you need gobs of mixing channels you could probably make do easily with a $500 computer. Sure it won't be as bullet proof as some of the nice Rack Mount systems many of the SAC users have pictures of, but a small Mid tower can be just as stable. It's just not as road worthy which may or may not be a problem for you, I don't know. It's not for me since I set up a show, tech it and it ussually just sits there for at least a month. So my gear isn't bouncing around in a truck every time it's used. Add to that a more modest priced sound card than the nicer RME stuff and add a few Behringer ADA8000 units. Or some Presonus, although the Behringers will still be more bang for the buck.

So...

Computer $500 (shop around and you can find a Core 2 Duo refurbished at this price, or a Pentium Dual Core brand new ussually)
SAC $500
Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe or M Audio Firewire Lightbride $400~
3 - ADA 8000 Behringer $600-$700~

So there is about a $2K SAC rig and it would have 24 inputs and outputs all on XLR all inputs with mic preamps. And your last $500 would be spent on other stuff you need to hook it all up and make it nice to work with, optical cables, maybe an inexpensive control surface, etc....

Richard

[RBIngraham]

Actually, keeping my O1v as a backup and alternative for the gigs where I don't feel SAC is the best choice is what I'm leaning toward at the moment. I hadn't planned on selling it either way, and it's the logical solution to that problem.

Agreed on the mixing by gains. Not sure why you'd want to mess with the gains all the time. I have a young pup at church who messes with them now and then after we've checked monitors and doesn't seem to recall my gentle reminders that gain adjustments require monitor level adjustments across the board unless people are complaining.
I only touch them when I realize how poorly a drummer or vocalist followed my request to give me a really hot signal level. One thing I'm liking on SAC is the color coded meters. The input meters on the O1v are such a low resolution it's hard to tell exactly where the signal is hitting between -18db and -12db. I like the analog equivalent of 0db set at -16db. Gives good headroom without worrying too much over clipping.


Keep your 01V and use it as a control surface. That is what I'm using my ProMix 01 for with SAC. :)

Richard

[dbarrow]

Correct, Studio Manager connects via USB on the O1v96. You can then run a wireless USB extender (not really recommended) or a CAT5 USB extender.
I've been playing around with SAC wired up to my ProFire2626 and laptop. Despite running Vista, it's been pretty solid. 4x128 buffers and only a handful of slipped output buffers with a 25% load on 29 channels, 2 monitor mixes and a few VST plugins I'm playing with. The more I play with it and dig into the manual, the more I like it. The laptop display did pretty well on the porch this afternoon with slightly overcast skies. That was another potential issue. I'll have to get a mouse for the laptop because the trackpad really doesn't work for extended usage. In the short term as a trial, or low budget alternative, the laptop and ProFire work quite well. The RayDat and a dedicated PC will work even better, especially since I can feed my DCX2496 via AES and never leave the digital domain til it heads for the amps.

I like the DCX2496 idea. I am currently feeding JBL powered speakers that have their own corssover/management built in, but if I build another system with actual amps I need to look into feeding a speaker management system digitally from the RayDAT card. Very nice!

[Wink0r]

Depending on budget Crown I-Tech series amps have an onboard DSP and AES input.

[mloretitsch]

The v96 series use the same preamps and those sound pretty decent as do the DM series consoles. It's just the LS9 and M7 that have the lack luster preamp issues. But they just about all have wordclock issues. So it not uncommon to see someone with all sorts of external boxes on a LS9 or M7 trying to make it sound better. :)

At least this is common in my world of theatre sound, not sure if it is in the music world or not...


Yes. Word on the street for the M7 around town is an external word clock is necessary for best sound quality. The Apogee Big Ben seems popular. I've mixed on M7's and they sound just fine to me out of the box, but again, I haven't had the chance to compare.

[dbarrow]

Yes. Word on the street for the M7 around town is an external word clock is necessary for best sound quality. The Apogee Big Ben seems popular. I've mixed on M7's and they sound just fine to me out of the box, but again, I haven't had the chance to compare.

What about the PM5D?

[mycorn]

What about the PM5D?

i have not done the blind test myself but have had
several folks i trust tell me they heard an improvement
with the external clock

i do know that my sac/rme/ada8000 rig
is _tons_ sweeter than my 01V96 ever was
and look forward to any opportunity to blind A/B
with a pm5d

and going from studio manager to sac
was a no brainer

YMMV
mh

[gdougherty]

i do know that my sac/rme/ada8000 rig
is _tons_ sweeter than my 01V96 ever was


How so? Direct comparison audio quality or feature set?

[gdougherty]

I like the DCX2496 idea. I am currently feeding JBL powered speakers that have their own corssover/management built in, but if I build another system with actual amps I need to look into feeding a speaker management system digitally from the RayDAT card. Very nice!

The only thing that occurred to me today is that I'll still be stuck with running subs via analog if I run the bus fed subs I mentioned in another thread. Not that big a deal though. The 40-100Hz range is probably much more forgiving than the upper frequency range. Personally if I didn't already have a DCX2496, I'd spend the $212 on the Sonoris EQ plugin to get 48db slopes and skip the outboard processor altogether. You can save all the buss output processing sets you want in SAC. With creative bus routing you can get everything you need without the extra rack spaces. Depending on how you mix you could use monitor boards sourced post fader off the FOH board to duplicate most items for additional outputs if necessary.

[RBIngraham]

The only thing that occurred to me today is that I'll still be stuck with running subs via analog if I run the bus fed subs I mentioned in another thread. Not that big a deal though. The 40-100Hz range is probably much more forgiving than the upper frequency range. Personally if I didn't already have a DCX2496, I'd spend the $212 on the Sonoris EQ plugin to get 48db slopes and skip the outboard processor altogether. You can save all the buss output processing sets you want in SAC. With creative bus routing you can get everything you need without the extra rack spaces. Depending on how you mix you could use monitor boards sourced post fader off the FOH board to duplicate most items for additional outputs if necessary.

I've mostly been using self powered subs or subs that have dedicated processors, so they do their own x-over. But one of our members keeps talking about Rubber Filter, which should have x-over fairly nicely.

Speaking of creative routing within SAC, on my last show I actually used the XY panner's Sub buss, to route only the channels I wanted to a subwoof output. So that was very handy and of course the less channels you send to the sub that don't really need to be there, the better. Plus it lets you dial in the amount of Sub level you want. Very fun. :)

Richard

[RBIngraham]

What about the PM5D?

From what I've been told by people that have the budgets to use that console the same is true of even the PM5D, it will perform better using an external wordclock.

Richard

[gdougherty]

I've mostly been using self powered subs or subs that have dedicated processors, so they do their own x-over. But one of our members keeps talking about Rubber Filter, which should have x-over fairly nicely.

Speaking of creative routing within SAC, on my last show I actually used the XY panner's Sub buss, to route only the channels I wanted to a subwoof output. So that was very handy and of course the less channels you send to the sub that don't really need to be there, the better. Plus it lets you dial in the amount of Sub level you want. Very fun. :)

Richard

This is essentially aux-fed subs except you're using a surround pan function to feed them instead of a post fade aux bus.

[Bob L]

And its also easy to use an aux bus... you can route the aux master directly to a device output to feed your subs... or pass it thru the return chan and assign that to a separate master out... there you can patch eq for crossovers.

Bob L

[mycorn]

How so? Direct comparison audio quality or feature set?

both
but the feature set is not really a level playing field...

however to qualify that
i'v been doing PC audio for a long time
and mouse mixing is perfectly comfortable to me

there are those compatriots who cant
"let go of the faders"

to me that's just one more thing i'd have to pack up

it aint for everyone

fwiw

[DennisC]

I built a 32in/32out system about a month ago using a current fast Intel computer, RME RayDAT, 4 Behringer ADA8000's, etc. With the shock mount 12u rack that houses the system, the whole thing ran about $4K. ... The system has performed flawlessly and the difference in sound quality is STARTLING! At several clubs and local hotel gigs members of other bands have come up and remarked on the stunning difference in quality. ........My FOH setup now consists of a notebook computer and a Behringer BCF2000 fader surface. .....

dbarrow,
I am curious about the type(s) of speakers you are using when getting these great results. Could you share that?

Thanks,
Dennis

[dbarrow]

dbarrow,
I am curious about the type(s) of speakers you are using when getting these great results. Could you share that?

Thanks,
Dennis

The band I started working for right before I got them to switcht to SAC uses JBL PRX515 powered mid-high cabinets, JBL PRX 518 S subs and a couple of Cerwin-Vega CVA-121 powered sub woofers under the drum riser. I have a stereo master out going to the JBL stuff and another master out feeding the subs. I don't put much in the subs, just a touch of kick drum bass and low synth notes. We confiugre all this various ways. They also use the PRX515 cabinets as monitors.

We had an Allen & Heath GL-2400-32 console and I had made an FX rack that had a bunch of studio quality FX: TC 2290, Eventinde H3000, SPX900, etc. We had a big, gnarly splitter snake and another GL-2400 for a monitor board. We don't use it anymore, mainly for the convenience of not having to set it up. The improvement in sound quality was a huge surprise.

[Angie]

Hey, looks like we are neighbors. Our address is Broomfield, but we are surrounded by Westminster.

I don't have much experience with SAC yet. We are hoping to use it in studio only for now. But we might be able to help you decide in a few weeks as the studio nears completion. We are having the floors done today. PM me if you'd like.

[gdougherty]

Hey, looks like we are neighbors. Our address is Broomfield, but we are surrounded by Westminster.

I don't have much experience with SAC yet. We are hoping to use it in studio only for now. But we might be able to help you decide in a few weeks as the studio nears completion. We are having the floors done today. PM me if you'd like.

Thanks, several of us Colorado folk around here. I'm pretty sold on SAC at this point. I've now figured out how to eliminate all my outboard hardware and save myself the cost of additional EQ's as I add monitor amps. When I put the options up against each other, especially with the option to have my old Yamaha as a backup, it's a no brainer. Some day I may add a second Raydat and really run up the channel count just for fun. Can't do that with the Yamaha, 32 is all I get. More channels would help make up for the non-recallable preamps with a traditional multi-band event.

[Angie]

Thanks, several of us Colorado folk around here.

There are more of us here than there have been in a long time.


I'm pretty sold on SAC at this point.

Glad to hear it! Chris and I have been SAW users since the mid-90's or so. We don't do too much live sound and since Chris sold the remote truck hardly any remote recording either. But I thought it would be great to use SAC during tracking sessions in the new studio we are (so close) finishing. Moving the system out of the studio for an occasional remote will be pretty easy.

BTW We sold Chris' 01V a couple years ago. We don't let go of equipment easily, but letting that one go was. We haven't missed it at all.