OT: Altiverb Impulse conversion to .wav

[Dave Labrecque]

I found this cool-looking funky site of IR's.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fokkie/IR.htm

But he's only converted a few to .wav format. He's using Altiverb, and from what I can tell, that means these are in the Sound Designer II format. Each impulse consists of four files: xxx.R.rsrc, xxx.L.rsrc, xxx.R and xxx.L. The latter two seem to have the audio data in 'em. I tried adding an SD2 extension and opening them in Quicktime Pro, but it didn't recognize them. I'm guessing it's a 'resource fork' issue, whatever that means.

Can anyone tell me how to convert these into .wav's? Sure would appreciate it! :)

[razor]

Dave

I've got know idea if this would work but its probably a good place to start looking.

Wasn't there a version of protools free for PC win 2000 I think.

Open SDII file in PT and export as wav only a guess.

Just a thought and I would also like the answer to this question. I went on the site cool.

Cheers

Phil

[Dave Labrecque]

Phil,

Good idea. Unfortunately, Pro Tools FREE won't install on anything but Windows ME and 98SE. So, the question is... is this worth putting Windows 98SE on a separate partition?

[canipus]

All the Altiverb IRs have been converted to WAVs and to Samplitude and have appeared on the net in various places over the last 12 months. I believe doing the conversion (whoever does it) is a copyright infringement. The Altiverb IRs belong to the company producing them and you buy a license to use. The license does not cover changing them - tho' as I said above people have already done it AND distributed them all over the net.

[Jesse Skeens]

The imulses on tha link werent done by the people from Altiverb though so there is no copyright.

[Dave Labrecque]

It appears that the Altiverb folks provide extensive direction on capturing your own IR's. The site I posted is by a guy who has done just this. It's really a fun-looking (and, hopefully, -sounding) collection. He has made them available for free. I'd like to know a way to convert the ones he hasn't to .wav.

So whaddaya say? :)

[canipus]

The imulses on tha link werent done by the people from Altiverb though so there is no copyright.

YES there IS a copyright. Copyright is created at the moment of creation. You need to register copyright to prove ownership but the copyright exists from the moment the impulses are made and the copyright belongs to the person making them. When you compose an item of music while dicky doodling around on your PC, a copyright exists immediately at the point you have a recording on hard disk or some other recorded format.
Anyway the point I was making is that the impulses in the distributed version of the Altiverb have been converted and distributed to WAV files in spite of the fact that the owners of that product have specifically asked users in writing not to copy or convert them. A direct breach of confidence AND copyright.
I see now you were referring to other impulses but regardless whoever created them owns the copyright on them. Even if the creator intended to distribute them free on the net, the copyright still exists and still belongs with the creator - you can't ignore it. Whether there is any notional monetary value in said copyright or whether it is enforceable or not is purely another matter and is irrelevant to the meaning of copyright as it exists in law.

[Jesse Skeens]

Sorry I meant that there would be no copyright "problem" in the sense that this guy isn't worried about people copying/converting etc...

[razor]

Thanks Canipus

I never thought converting a file as copyright infringement, so thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Ignorance is bliss but no excuse. :eek:

[Arco]

I believe AWAVE can handle SDII files...

[TotalSonic]

Not trying to encourage copyright violations - but if people need an excellent sd2 to wav converter Rail Rogut has one available on his site for free -

http://www.railjonrogut.com/sdTwoWav.htm

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Perry]

Though I don't want to enter into a real debate over copyrights at the moment... I have read quite a few comments about all of this as it relates to impulses on other forums... particularly the noisevault forum that deals with impulses and the making of impulses more or less exclusively. And I've read the statement from the Altiverb guy that was posted there.

FWIW, I tend to think there are parameters of just where impulsing is or isn't acceptable from both a moral and a legal standpoint (and here I'm not necessarily just talking about impulses that someone has already made and claims ownership of.. like the Altiverb impulses... but also the whole idea of "impulsing"... "cloning" in the audio world if you will... that are yet to be "established".

I'm not taking a stand one way or the other at the moment... just expressing that there are unresolved "issues" here it would seem to me. Like.... Is this moral? Is this the beginning of the end? Or is it the beginning of the beginning? ;)

No matter how I try to look at it, I can't help but find it interesting that Audioease (the makers of Altiverb) wants to closely guard *their* ownership (and who can blame them for that?), when obviously they have impulsed hardware such as the Lexicon units and then sell these impulses to the public for profit as part of "their" products.

They seem to sidestep this issue by using slightly different names and not ever referring *exactly* to the Lexicon brand name or particular model numbers (at least not that I saw on their site). But.... "Classic High end 1980's digital reverb - A selection of presets from a classic top end reverb unit introduced in the late 80's" ???

L480 ???

Who's kiddin who here? :rolleyes: They've impulsed another company's products and are selling these. Is that OK? If it is... then when is it not OK.. exactly when?

Again... I'm not wanting to debate this myself (at least not at the moment)... and I am certainly not wanting to promote infringing upon anyone's ownership of copyrights. I'm also not saying that any of this is an excuse to then use "their" impulses in some "wrong" or "illegal"way... if it is in fact illegal. I'm not sure that this has been absolutely established at this point. Is a sound spike an "original composition"? The software for using this is certainly protected... no question... but the spike itself... beats me. Of course audioease certainly thinks so.

And I actually tend to argue in general *for* ownership... I think the whole idea of ownership is becoming a bigger and bigger problem due to "licensing" where the public is never allowed to own anything at all... like in the case of software such as Windows and so forth. When we can no longer own anything... I think that *is* the beginning of the end :mad: ....but maybe that's a different subject for a separate discussion?

Also, from what I've read on the Noisevault forum Audioease lets you make your own impulses with Altiverb... but unless I remember this incorrectly... they only "license" you to use "your" impulses on "their" product... they don't grant you license to use them elsewhere.. or distribute them to your friends or on the internet, even though you made them from your own sources. (I could be wrong about this, though I believe that this is the consensus from what I read on the Noisevault forum)

So who owns what then? If you "impulse" someone else's room.... particularly if you don't pay for the use of it while doing it (or even if you do) ...who owns the "sound"? It would almost seem if this sound is "owned" then the sounds that were made using a Lexicon reverb unit (for example) would be owned then by Lexicon? ;) But in this case Audioease clearly claims ownership. And back to Altiverb again... they have impulses of real studio rooms.. of rooms that others own... rooms and echo chambers that you would otherwise have to pay to use..

Can you do that? Obviously Audioease has... but what are the moral and/or legal issues? In theory at least, it should be possible to take old recording done in famous recording facilities and take say a snare hit into some echo chamber (like the Cello Rooms that Altiverb has for example, or the Bill Putnam Echo Chambers) and recreate the room "sound" via impulse... and then use it... without paying anything for the use of that room again. Should you be allowed to do that?

Good question.... and that to me is where all this stands. And even if the decision is that it shouldn't be allowed... how would it ever be enforced? Particularly if it becomes something that is like falling off of a log to do... which it likely will. This all harkens back to the same issues that arose when sampling started in.. or for that matter when synths began replacing real orchestras... it was uncharted waters there for a while and there were questions about it. I remember when it was being questioned if we'd be able to use a synth to replace an orchestra... if the Unions would allow this for a legitimate recording.

I have access to quite a bit of gear myself here in town.... Lexicon reverbs, EMT Plates, AKG BX reverb... these types of units have all been impulsed and can be found on the internet... and they have also been done by Audioease. But... I could also make my own. I guess a fair question is, should I? Is this "wrong"? I mean... the fact is at one point not very long ago I was considering buying a Lexicon unit (at least a PCM 90/91) just so I would have "that" sound available to me when I wanted it or when a client requested it.

Buying a unit was the only way to get "that" exact sound.... until IRs came along. Of course it still isn't the same as having an actual unit... but in my case (and I'm sure a *lot* of others) it's close enough that buying a hardware unit is no longer on my "list".

If anyone has the right to question or object to the use of impulses.. I'd think it would have to be Lexicon. Their products are probably the most impulsed hardware units of all!

I just find all this an interesting development that no one seems to have foreseen and that maybe doesn't quite fit into the current definitions of what "is". :) This is "virtual" taken to the extreme! This looks to me to be the opening of quite a large door. Pandora's box maybe? :eek:

These things will eventually be sorted out I'm sure (especialy since money is involved! ) But... it would seem that "sound" itself.. taken on its own... will be hard to define unless we are talking about melody as in current copyright for compositions. How can the courts agree that the "sound" of the "The Vienna Mozart Hall" (for example) can be owned by "Audioease" (for example)?

A lot of viewpoints can be taken... and are taken. In the "real world" (wherever that is!) ...thank goodness we have the "Law" :rolleyes: to guide us!

It's a new world (again)... at least on the digital front!

The rest of the world? ...same old madness! :eek:

All the best,

Perry

[Dave Labrecque]

Most excellent! Thanks Steve-o! :)

Rail is quite something. Always seeming to crank out yet another helpful utility! Thanks, Rail-o! :cool:

[matt]

Hey Perry, I'm back in Ottawa... it's really cold here! :(
This issue of ownership is very interesting. I look at impulse responses like samples. They really can't do much on their own. It's up to the plugin, which requires time and experience of the programmer, to make that sample into a useable tool. Should IR reverb plugins have a price tag... Yes. Should IR themselves have one... not unless they are bundled on a CD for distribution.
Let the good times roll ;)

[Dave Labrecque]

Perry,

I think you've scratched the surface of an even larger issue (ultimately, perhaps, the largest). In general I think technology is bringing us all together as one (here I go getting Buddhist on you) in so many ways... radio, TV, Internet... samples, file sharing, IR's... I'm starting to think that the future is going to require a dropping of artificial (man-made) rules about these things (a.k.a. ethics, laws) and an embracing of a new and completely different paradigm. And I mean like completely different. The good news is that when we get there, there will be no more war. The bad news is that there will be much struggle before we get there. IMO.

It all sounds so new age... so woo-woo... yet, I find truth in it. How can one go on making more and more laws about things that are becoming less and less concrete (and "as easy as falling off a log," as you say) without ultimately having the legal and "moral" infrustructure implode under it's own weight?

I think the music industry got it wrong when they went after file sharers. Better to find a way to work with the times (i-tunes), rather than try to beat them back into the dark ages. Or at least the 80s. :)

Imagine no possessions... I wonder if you can. ;)

[Perry]

Imagine no possessions... I wonder if you can. ;)

:) :) :)

[canipus]

Perry,


Imagine no possessions... I wonder if you can. ;)

Yes you can where software applications are concerned. Microsoft have a development team that is working on x gen platform client technologies where the only s/w on your machine will be a communication portal to a web site. All procesing and applications will be remote on the web site. You won't own any s/w applications in the future. You physically won't even see the s/w. You just receive licensed access. You feed data in and you get data out and all your files and records will be store remotely. You won't need hard drives for anything other than virtual memory as opposed to data storage. It's a whole new ball-game. You better get used to it because it IS going to happen - it kills software ownership, software distribution and software piracy stone dead.

[Bob L]

And it will also kill all possibilities of any high quality well written applications running on your computer ever again.

When this truly happens... is when I get off the boat and find something else to do with my energy. :)

Bob L

[canipus]

Yes you can where software applications are concerned. Microsoft have a development team that is working on x gen platform client technologies where the only s/w on your machine will be a communication portal to a web site. All procesing and applications will be remote on the web site. You won't own any s/w applications in the future. You physically won't even see the s/w. You just receive licensed access. You feed data in and you get data out and all your files and records will be store remotely. You won't need hard drives for anything other than virtual memory as opposed to data storage. It's a whole new ball-game. You better get used to it because it IS going to happen - it kills software ownership, software distribution and software piracy stone dead.

.... forgot to mention because of it's centralized nature it enables all world data to be internally formatted to meet the requirements of the parallel processing protein arithmetic units that are under development by Western Governments. Which means your tax dollars are paying NOW for the way in which you will be doing your computing tomorrow.
(You didn't think all Microsoft's R&D was paid for by Microsoft did you?)
This is another way of saying the reason the change is going to happen is because the Government says so. :-)
At least look on the bright side. All your music will finally get world-wide recognition and reception while its being scanned for steganographic identification prints.

[canipus]

And it will also kill all possibilities of any high quality well written applications running on your computer ever again.

Bob L

Bob, I heartily agree with you. It's not a rewarding outlook. Look at what's happened to music recording anyway. We spend all our time producing high quality masters for the old CD, DVD Audio and DACD and yet look at the public outside the industry. What are the new adults of tomorrow listening to? Lossy compression format MP3s. Outside that the only thing that is important is how many channels of sound have you got and how loud is it. None of the kids are concerned about quality unless you call channel count, bass, treble and volume quality quotients.

[Perry]

And it will also kill all possibilities of any high quality well written applications running on your computer ever again.

When this truly happens... is when I get off the boat and find something else to do with my energy. :)

Bob L

And please throw me a life line 'cause I'm jumping off the boat too. It may happen... but I definitely ain't going to "get used to it"! :(

Perry :)

[Perry]

Yes you can where software applications are concerned. Microsoft have a development team that is working on x gen platform client technologies where the only s/w on your machine will be a communication portal to a web site. All procesing and applications will be remote on the web site. You won't own any s/w applications in the future. You physically won't even see the s/w. You just receive licensed access. You feed data in and you get data out and all your files and records will be store remotely. You won't need hard drives for anything other than virtual memory as opposed to data storage. It's a whole new ball-game. You better get used to it because it IS going to happen - it kills software ownership, software distribution and software piracy stone dead.

"This is the end, my friend......" :eek:

I've argued about the "doomsday" side of the Internet/Microsoft connection for a while.... and no one wants to think about it... and they likely won't until it's far too late... of which it probably already is now anyway. Slavery seems to never go out of style on this planet.... it just gets more efficient! :(

Well... back to SAWing and making music and having fun while we still can! Anybody got a good joke? I could use one about now! :p

[canipus]

"This is the end, my friend......" :eek:

Anybody got a good joke? I could use one about now! :p

Did you read about the Irishman who sat on the top of a mountain all night long trying to work out when the sun would rise?





It suddenly dawn ed on him

[Perry]

Did you read about the Irishman who sat on the top of a mountain all night long trying to work out when the sun would rise?





It suddenly dawn ed on him

NOt bad! ;)

I think I'll need more than one like that though.. or one *really* good one! ;)

You know... I've known this stuff was coming though.. it's not like I'm *suddenly* bummed out mind you! :eek:

Still.... bring on the clowns if you will! :p

[omaru]

Maybe Bob could do a port for the Atari Falcon :) :)

[Perry]

You know... I've known this stuff was coming though.. it's not like I'm *suddenly* bummed out mind you! :eek:


Along these same lines... I don't remember now exactly where I read this, but I read just recently a prediction that in the near future "old" computers ...like the ones we have now :rolleyes: ... will be highly prized and sought after because they won't be "controlled" or part of the "system".

They'll basically be "outlaw" systems and underground type stuff.. that will run *any* software.. whereas the newer systems will only be able to run "approved" and "controlled" software. And guess who will get to "approve and control" what will run.

Hint... it won't be you! :eek:

Microsoft will probably buy Digidesign/Avid and let Pro Tools only run on Windows... and be the only DAW that is allowed to run on Windows! :eek: ... with LOGIC running on MAC.

And really none of the above would surprise me... at all.

So... hang on to these "OLD" computers guys! We'll need 'em for the revolution to come! AND to run SAWStudio!!! ;)

Cheers,
Perry

[Mountain Media]

And it will also kill all possibilities of any high quality well written applications running on your computer ever again.

When this truly happens... is when I get off the boat and find something else to do with my energy. :)

Bob LAmen, and Amen!! -- I'm gettin' too old for this -- I'm gonna start a 'hermit' commune in the mountains of Virginia -- where all us hermits can live alone, together - (and run our 'old, banned, illegally-held' 3.8Mhz P4's that will STILL run SAWStudio!!)!!:)

[RobertV]

My best friend has a really beautiful philosophy that to me puts a different angle on this whole debate, it goes like this;
Anything he uses, does not belong to him, it will allways belongs to the person who created it, he is merely borrowing it (no matter if he paid for it or was given it), this way, he treats everything with great respect, and appreciation.
As we do not ever fully create anything from scratch, but use tools, either in the form of knowledge or wisdom gathered (from other individuals) during our life's journey or physical tools created by others, we never really fully own anything.
Sure, we (or our employer) own the copyright on anything we create, but this would in essence only apply to the nett value we added.

If we apply this to impulses, before any of the Altiverb (or any other) files representing spaces could be passed on, one would at least expect to see permission of the owner of the source of the wave, i.e.; the owner /creator of the space or instrument (Lexicon, etc;) that provided the character, and was the reason for the exercise in the first place.

I find it a great concern when someone claims to own the product produced by the use of a tool or process, because following this argument through, makes for an unworkable situation.

I buy a lathe, and the manufacturer of the lathe, claims copyright on whatever I produce on that lathe! Also it would be equally valid for the manufacturer of the raw materials used to produce anything on the lathe, to claim copyright as well! There is no end to this argument if one would accept the validity of the claim in the first place!

Maybee I should just go to bed and get some sleep!

Cheers........Robert V.

:confused:

[MMP]

While synth and processing companies have title to the circuitry they designed to make their audio products, they have no claim whatsoever on the audio that passes through those circuits.

If companies make impulses through a Lexicon, they own the rights to that sample, the same way they would own the rights to any mix put through the unit that they created. This doesn't stop you from creating your own impulses through a Lexicon. It is their right to protect audio they have created, but they have no exclusivity here.

IMO, impulse reverbs often sound better than other types of software reverberation, but hardly begin to really challenge the many states of excitation that a room or processor can obtain.

In the same way that the musical limitations of early samplers became quickly apparent, I think convolution technology has a long way to go to challenge the musicality of a real room or higher end DSP system.

That said, I use 'em and abuse 'em.

Regards,

MM

[Carl G.]

So...
Why not accelerate SawStudio usage to Linux, (Mandrake, RedHat, FreeBSD, or sumpn'!) ??

Remember, MS doesn't own the world... unless we let them.
Carl

[Dave Labrecque]

I dunno. Sounds like it puts all the control in someone's hands. And dat ain't right.

[Dave Labrecque]

Hey, FWIW...

I've discovered that, although Sound Forge won't recognize these SDII files when opening them directly (Open/*.* or drag 'n' drop from the outside world), if I select the RAW filetype (*.raw, *.*) in the Open File dialog, select the SDII file (I've been assuming that's what it is, anyway), and click the Custom button, I can select from a bunch of parameters which apparently tells Sound Forge what to look for in it's interpretation of the data. I tried different combinations of settings and got nothing but white noise, till I picked 44,100 KHz, 24-bit PCM, Big-endian (Motorola) Byte order, and Mono. Then, voila, the impulse response magically opened. And I was able to save it as a .wav file. I then used Rail's wonderful Interleaver program to put the L and R mono files together into a stereo file for SIR. :)

But, I think I'll check out his SDII convertor, just the same...

[Perry]

I dunno. Sounds like it puts all the control in someone's hands. And dat ain't right.

The whole thing boils down (IMO) to self-determinism. Either you are a self-determined being.. or you are a other-determined being and someone else is making your decisions for you... which fits into the definition of a slave. The corporate and government mentality (as far as I see at least) prefers that we fit into the latter category.

All endevors directed towards the goal of controling our self-determinism... of taking over the individuals rights to making their own choices and to do things for themsleves... are endevors towrd enslaving the individual. And if you take a very good, and honest, look around you, you will find that this is exactly what is being done.... every day.

OK.... the only way to stop this... and to win out over it... is to "out create" them. Create a world that is better than that by you creating your own immediate environment. Create "good" things and let people know that there are good things possible and that there is beauty in the world and that it doesn't *have* to be this other way.

People have to know that they can actually cause things and influence their environment in a positve way... they can create. They don't need others to take over this function for them.

Soooo... back to SAWing and creating good stuff! Let's make the sun shine!
:D

All the best,

Perry