Stepping into SAC world - any suggestion ?

[mortenpa]

Hi


First, I'm Norwegian, so my english is not that good.

After 10 years touring Scandinavia doing live sound, I have been "off" for 12 years.

But now, I'm soon "doing" live gigs again

After discovering SAW and SAC I want to try "no-hardware" mixing.
No more two-tonn mixer and effects-rack, no more snakes.
But I'm kind of scared, only a compyter, no fysical nobs or faders :eek:

What experience have you guys (and girls) from using SAC in a live enviroment?

I'm going use it at my small Sportsbar (soon to bee Rock and Sportsbar :) (capacity of 300)
In addition to do live sound, I'm also going to use SAC to distribute sound from my 6 sattelitterecivers. I have different zone's (and TV screens) so I can have picture and sound from up to 6 games simultanely. (Have a 6 by 6 HDMI switch to distribute TV signals)

On the stage I have 4 ADAT8000, and my RME HDSP 9652 is on its way.
I'm going to use a laptop (with a 19" external screen) for remote/FOH mix (and of course one master computer on stage).

Any experience and/or suggestions is happily recived :)

I will try to make a small "documentary" from setting up, rigging and from my first "live" gig.
And I might share it with you, if things go as I hope.


Thanks for reading


Morten PA

[Wam3]

The "live environment" is what SAC is for, read the posts here and you will see how much everyone loves it, and the kind of work it's doing out in the field.

I do think your short on ADAT in's/out's, unless you have a Raydat card coming instead of the 9652.

Look forward to seeing the video.

W

[sebastiandybing]

As you, I was a bit shaky doing my first show with just a computer.
But after doing a dusin shows with SAC and SAW and recordings with
SAC as a front end for SAW, I must admit I feel like working with a dedicated hardware mixer. SAC has never crash for me, and the computer
has also been 100% reliabel. My last to recordings have been done at just 1 buffer at 32 samples, such low latency is not nessesary for live sound, but to me this prove that SAC is stable and reliabel.

If you are going to remote control the foh. comp. there are some plugin
limitations, it is not possible to remote control a vst plugin e.g..
On the other hand, you can just make a fix setup with eg. 2 aux reverbs
and wathever efx you need to sent to. and then thats it.

I think I would start with placing the main computer at foh. and then when things has settle and you have a clear picture of how you will mix and wath you need to do so. you could remote control it.

btw. I am living in Denmark.

Sebastian

[mortenpa]

The "live environment" is what SAC is for, read the posts here and you will see how much everyone loves it, and the kind of work it's doing out in the field.


I have read many posts, and, yes, there are many (almost everyon) that loves it.
But I kind of miss reading about users that does use SAC every day (or at least every weekend) and a SE, not a band member, for real FOH use.



I do think your short on ADAT in's/out's, unless you have a Raydat card coming instead of the 9652.



I know, I have one ADAT extra/spare, if everything goes as planned I get one extra 9652 :)

[mortenpa]

If you are going to remote control the foh. comp. there are some plugin
limitations, it is not possible to remote control a vst plugin e.g..
On the other hand, you can just make a fix setup with eg. 2 aux reverbs
and wathever efx you need to sent to. and then thats it.

I think I would start with placing the main computer at foh. and then when things has settle and you have a clear picture of how you will mix and wath you need to do so. you could remote control it.



Takk Sebastian :)

This is the kind of reply I'm looking for, I'm doing my first SAC live gig in only three weeks, so I really need/want some help.

Suggestions like this helps me implement SAC, and helps me teasing the guys that sold me my PA (so they could buy a new BIG digital (hardware)mixer) :D


Morten PA

[Wam3]

Ok, here is a real world tip you can use .......

After you set up you input and outputs, set the SOLO MODE to Solo in place - mutes other channels. Then save it as default, in the preferences. This will save you the agony of blowing your head off the first time you press a solo button.........

W

[Bob L]

Solo in place mode is not something to use for a Live console... it can be used during a rehearsal if you want to hear soloed instruments thru the main stacks... but you should definitely use one of the soslo bus modes during performances.

You have individual level controls for every solo on every chan on every mixer... so you have no excuse for having solo level problems. :)

Bob L

[905shmick]

Any chance of getting PFL or AFL solo mode choice for the inputs and outputs sections in an upcoming release?

[Wam3]

Well yea ........... It's pretty obvious that during a performance, muting all the channels to listen to one probably isn't going enhance the performance.

But given that it is routed to device one (where most people, or at least me put the mains), pre fader .... it is pretty exciting when you press it for the first time with the mains up .......

I use it during sound check to hear how things sound through the mains.

What is your configuration of choice? Output that go to a headphone amp? Wireless in-ears so you can hear it from the mix position while using the remote?

W

[905shmick]

You can change the solo device to a new set of outputs. I'd suggest outputting to a headphone amp or wireless IEM.

[Wam3]

You have individual level controls for every solo on every chan on every mixer... so you have no excuse for having solo level problems. :)
Bob L

Where do I find that? I see the solo bus level, but that seems to apply across the board....

W

[905shmick]

Right click on the solo button for the channel.

[Bob L]

The AFL / PFL at the same time can already be simulated now... use the Pre Solo Bus mode... and then st the master output solo level (on the solo switch itself) down the same setting as you master out fader level.

Bob L

[Wam3]

Duh ... I thought I tried that........

I didn't mean to hijack this thread ....... I was just passing on something that I had experienced, as he was getting into this from scratch. It can be daunting going from an analog mixer to SAC where everything can go everywhere.... I guess technically it would have been more correct to just point out the default solo routing, and warn against an inadvertent pre fader solo to the mains.

I love the flexibility that SAC gives me, there is A LOT here and I am constantly finding more and getting the various shortcuts engrained into my head ..... For me its very similar to using the keyboard shortcuts in photoshop, once you know them it dramatically speeds up your workflow!

W

[905shmick]

The AFL / PFL at the same time can already be simulated now... use the Pre Solo Bus mode... and then st the master output solo level (on the solo switch itself) down the same setting as you master out fader level.

Bob L

Yeah, then it's still similated. For working monitors this isn't ideal. I really need to be able to listen to the inputs PRE and outputs POST. When I solo a monitor output and move the fader, I need to hear the change.

I too didn't mean to hijack the thread, just thought it was sort of on topic since soloing was being discussed.

[Bob L]

To hear a solo change when moving any fader you must be in PST solo mode... pre solo on inputs and pst on outs will not change that.

If you want to hear mixes... use PST solo bus... if you just want to hear signals that may be muted... use Pre Solo Bus... the only thing pre on ins and pst on outs would do for you is adjust the solo level on the outs to follow the levels being sent to the mains so you don't get blasted if your master faders happen to be set down -10db... this can be done by simply lowering the gain on the individual solo switch on the outs feeding the mains.

You can use Pre solo mode and still hear final mix changes by soloing the out chan itself... this will let you hear input fader level adjustments in the final mix.... this is so regardless of using pre or pst modes.

Learn how the chase solo mode works by engaging solo from the master solo lite itself... this then allows you to hear the mains mix and any monitor mix as you change mixers... the master solo chases the mixers... and... any other chan solo engaged will overide the master solo mix and solo the individual chan or chans engaged, until they are all dis-engaged... at which time the master solo engages again.

I'm pretty inclined to say SAC has one of the most, if not the most, versatile solo designs in the industry... at least in my opinion.

Bob L

[905shmick]

I only want to hear the change on the output, not the input, thus the request for selectable solo modes for inputs and outputs.

I shouldnt have to change solo options from PRE to POST when moving between input and output sections. Every analog and digital live desk is setup this way by default.

I'm already using the chase master solo function but it still doesn't address my situation of needing inputs on PRE and outputs on POST.

[gdougherty]

I only want to hear the change on the output, not the input, thus the request for selectable solo modes for inputs and outputs.

I shouldnt have to change solo options from PRE to POST when moving between input and output sections. Every analog and digital live desk is setup this way by default.

I'm already using the chase master solo function but it still doesn't address my situation of needing inputs on PRE and outputs on POST.

While it may be industry standard, I have to say I kind of like the pre-fade masters instead of the traditional post-fade. Maybe it's just because of how my gains have always set, but I always got a loud earful on a channel pfl and a soft level on an output afl. On top of that, with the ease of VCA mixing, and selecting all the channels and backing them down a few db, I find that I'm doing that now rather than using SAC like a traditional non-VCA analog desk where I mess with sub group levels and output levels. My master output goes to 0db and I leave it there.
While it may seem like more of a pain to back all the channels down, I'm liking that methodology better. Otherwise I back down the mains, then slowly everything has a tendency to creep up individually and I reach for the mains again to bring it back in line and eventually my gain stages are all out of whack. This may be less of a problem in SAC with all the headroom and sweet engine mathematics, but it still seems like running your channels hot and pulling the main outputs back 15db is the wrong way to run things.

[905shmick]

I want outputs specifically on post because I'm using those for IEM feeds. I want to hear what is being sent to the artist and the level it's being sent at.

[Bob L]

Why... the artist usually has his own master volume on his in-ears receiver anyway, so you are not in charge of how loud he sets his final volume.

All you really can hear is his mix itself.

Anyway... relax... I have already added this option for a pre/pst combo setting to the list. :)

Bob L

[gdougherty]

Why... the artist usually has his own master volume on his in-ears receiver anyway, so you are not in charge of how loud he sets his final volume.

All you really can hear is his mix itself.

Anyway... relax... I have already added this option for a pre/pst combo setting to the list. :)

Bob L

Bob, I think it's been asked before, but is there any way you'd be able to put up a list of future ideas, maybe classify them as immediate future development, near future development and far future dreaming?

[tatkin]

Bob, I think it's been asked before, but is there any way you'd be able to put up a list of future ideas, maybe classify them as immediate future development, near future development and far future dreaming?

+1

Could provide some useful 'tools' for justifying impending purchases of SAC.

Tom

[tomasino]

Hi
First, I'm Norwegian, so my english is not that good.
Morten PA


Hey Morten, welcome to the SAC board.

Long ago I spent some time in Stavanger..what a beautiful place. With so many beautiful women.. Just incredible.

Yea, as you've read..SAC is the way. Sounds like you already have most of the hardware you need.

You will blow some minds using SAC.

Peace and have a great time.

[RBIngraham]

While it may be industry standard, I have to say I kind of like the pre-fade masters instead of the traditional post-fade. Maybe it's just because of how my gains have always set, but I always got a loud earful on a channel pfl and a soft level on an output afl. On top of that, with the ease of VCA mixing, and selecting all the channels and backing them down a few db, I find that I'm doing that now rather than using SAC like a traditional non-VCA analog desk where I mess with sub group levels and output levels. My master output goes to 0db and I leave it there.
While it may seem like more of a pain to back all the channels down, I'm liking that methodology better. Otherwise I back down the mains, then slowly everything has a tendency to creep up individually and I reach for the mains again to bring it back in line and eventually my gain stages are all out of whack. This may be less of a problem in SAC with all the headroom and sweet engine mathematics, but it still seems like running your channels hot and pulling the main outputs back 15db is the wrong way to run things.

Actually on a traditional analog board that is the way you would minimize any noise in the console. That is why it used to be a lot more important about setting your input gain/trim levels so that you would get as much signal over the noise floor of the console. If you wanted the best signal to noise ratio what you really want to do is go through the entire sound system and adjust everything so your gain structure is just below clipping at every stage. That's easier said than done of course, and if you err in the direction of too much, well then it just sounds like crap of course.

But this is the method folks like Pat Brown teach at Syn Aud Con. They use a 440Hz tone generator and a piezio tweeter to really get all their systems matched across the board. This way when something is clipping at the console it's also likely clipping at the EQ/Drvie rack and at your amps possibly. What they do is feed the 440 tone through the gear, use the level meters on the gear to get it close, then listen on the piezio tweeter. Since a piezio usually doesn't produce sound as low as 440 hz, you won't hear anything. At least not until you clip the signal and produce overtones then you'll hear sound in the tiny tweeter. They will start at the console and go through the entire signal chain until they get to the inputs of the amps. Then they will adjust the amp gains by ear to suite how loud the sound system really needs to go. If you have the time to do this it does work very well. Of course it's best for things like permanent installed rigs. Doing this on touring systems would be a lot of extra work but could be done if you use the same gear every day. Just adjust the amp gains to match the venue.

So yes if you want to be anal it would be best to keep your channel levels up and lower your outputs. Digital toys like SAC have changed the need to really pay attention to this kind of thing since there is less noise inherent in the system itself these days. (less gear, fewer gain stages, less noise) But it also serves another purpose in my mind. It makes it easier to mix. By keeping your outputs lower, you are free to make more subtle changes at the input fader.

If all my inputs are at -10 tops that this that much less fader movement I have to adjust my mix. But if I bring down my output master to say -10 or even -12 to -15 or so, then I can bring those input faders up, I can use more of the fader travel to adjust my mix and make more subtle changes at the inputs.

Just my method of working anyway. As long as it sounds good for you and works, then it really doesn't matter much these days with modern digital technology.

Richard

[RBIngraham]

Where do I find that? I see the solo bus level, but that seems to apply across the board....

W

Go to the Mixer Menu and select Solo Mode. In that menu you can select which hardware output you want to use for the FOH mixer Solo Bus and which output you want to use for the Monitor Mixer Solo Bus.

Yea, having your Solo bus on the same output as your Main FOH would be a real pain wouldn't it? LOL... :p

I could see how it might be a bit confusing since this is the way SAC sets its defaults. However having SAC try to make some educated guess as to which output it should use instead would also be just as problematic. Then people would be complaining that they can't hear their solo bus at all, because it's assigned to some output that they have nothing plugged into. It's just one of those things that end users will have to learn how to use the tool correctly I would suspect. :D

Richard

[905shmick]

I think that question was about individual channel solo levels, not the solo device.

[RBIngraham]

I have read many posts, and, yes, there are many (almost everyon) that loves it.
But I kind of miss reading about users that does use SAC every day (or at least every weekend) and a SE, not a band member, for real FOH use.



I know, I have one ADAT extra/spare, if everything goes as planned I get one extra 9652 :)

Well here is an article I wrote about my first experience with SAC.

http://www.rbicompaudio.20m.com/articles/sfx/Evil%20Dead/ED.html

The best way to put it is this....

I have worked with just about every Yahama digital desk out there except the PM1D and PM5D along with some other offerings from others (Mackie, Tascam, Korg, etc...) If I have my choice (and I don't always) I will be using SAC on all my shows from this point on. It has it's quirks you need to get used to just like any other mixer. But I far prefer it's quirks to your typical mid priced to low cost Yamajunk digital console.

At least for what I do anyway.

Richard

[RBIngraham]

I think that question was about individual channel solo levels, not the solo device.

OK, but there was post in there that seemed to indicate that he didn't know how to assign his solo bus to an output either. If you read through the entire thread. At least that is what I thought. But maybe I'm wrong.

Happens every once in a blue moon... :D

RBI

[RBIngraham]

Well yea ........... It's pretty obvious that during a performance, muting all the channels to listen to one probably isn't going enhance the performance.

But given that it is routed to device one (where most people, or at least me put the mains), pre fader .... it is pretty exciting when you press it for the first time with the mains up .......

I use it during sound check to hear how things sound through the mains.

What is your configuration of choice? Output that go to a headphone amp? Wireless in-ears so you can hear it from the mix position while using the remote?

W

This is the post I meant to respond to. Sorry I picked the wrong post! LOL

RBI

[Bob L]

Attempting to list all the future features and developments and to hook them into a time table would be very limiting to me and SAC's development... and I doubt I will spend any time attempting to do so.

The idea of gauging a future purchase based on some promise of a new feature is not a good one... if what SAC brings to the table right now is not enough to pull you in... I suggest you are just not ready yet to be a candidate for virtual mixing... stick with what you know and let others lead the way.

SAC represents an amazing leap forward in the world of live and studio mixing technology and concept... many will resist... many will jump in with both feet and revel in the freedom and power that it brings to the table... that's just human nature... those that jump in now... will be the leaders as the SAC technology starts to change the audio industry in ways not imaginable... those that wait... may find themselves left behind in the near future as the technology advances more and more rapidly to the point where making the jump later may be too overwhelming for them.

If you don't see the value SAC represents right now... at only $500.... plus a small cost for the computer and audio front-end.... which brings you up into and beyond the high priced world of digital mixing... then nothing else I can do will probably change that... its up to you... you will either recognize it or not... and you will either resist the idea and cling to your current methods, or you will gladly let go and expand your horizons by jumping on board and taking part in leading the way.

How many new frontiers are there left anyway... SAC represents a brand new adventure that you can participate in right now... how exciting a time this is. :)

Bob L

[sebastiandybing]

Hi Morten
I am not sure what happen to your first question, if I am not wrong
it was about if SAC is stable and if you will be able to mix a live band
and use it for zone control.
The answer is yes to all of them:),

like any other digital mixer SAC has its own way of presenting things,
mainly because its not possible to show all parameters on a comp. screen.
this is also true to the 500.000 dollers Studer vista8 I am also working with, actually Studer sent a system tecnichian with it, who did set it for us and learned us to navigate it, so what I want to say is, before doing a real critical concert one have to learn to navigate sac and in some
cases find solution that one might have done differently on another mixer.
Like when I should use SAC's cue function for the first time, I did not undestand it, becouse vista8's cue function work compleate opposit.
So when I got hand on SACs way of doing it, I realised that SACs way
of handle it would have been a better solution for my work. And in some
cases vistas way is better. But both mixers could do the job, just in 2 different ways.
SAC is a piece of software you will like more and more, and like yours idea
of using it for zone playback is a piece of cake for SAC, it can easyli do
what people are using Yamahas faderless mixers for.

I can also help you buying the right computer pieces you will need to have
a low latency computer up and running.

Sebastian

[mortenpa]

Hey Morten, welcome to the SAC board.

Long ago I spent some time in Stavanger..what a beautiful place. With so many beautiful women.. Just incredible.

Just love those woman :)



You will blow some minds using SAC.

Peace and have a great time.

Thanks. hope to blow some minds :D

[mortenpa]

Hi Morten
I am not sure what happen to your first question

:( Too many OT's


like any other digital mixer SAC has its own way of presenting things

I have never used a digital mixer, so everything is kind of new to me


I can also help you buying the right computer pieces you will need to have a low latency computer up and running.


Thanks, Sebastian, but I have a spare computer (just two years old) with a OK P4, and 2GB memory.
But if it don't work out, I'll get back to you


Morten PA

[RBIngraham]

:( Too many OT's



I have never used a digital mixer, so everything is kind of new to me



Thanks, Sebastian, but I have a spare computer (just two years old) with a OK P4, and 2GB memory.
But if it don't work out, I'll get back to you


Morten PA

OT stuff is the norm around here. LOL. :p
(and I'll take blame for some of it, but not all...)

Anyway, the biggest thing about moving to digital mixing is just getting used to the fact that there is not a knob and/or a button or fader for every function on the console. Like there is with almost all analog mixing consoles. Most digital consoles will give you some type of controls for a single channel strip at a time, and then you select which channel you want to work on and then tweak it's parameters. That's pretty easy to get used to. Or at least I thought so when I first started working with digital consoles. SAC has pretty much the equivalent of that concept it's just all done in software on the screen. But the F Mixer window is equivalent to your rows of faders or your "overview" of the console. (depending on how big your computer display is and how many inputs you are using at a time, you might actually be able to fit all of them in one screen view) Then SAC has the W Mixer view, that is akin to your "selected channel" view, showing you all the settings for 1 channel at a time. This is all very similar to almost all the digital consoles out there.

The other thing that will often throw first time users of digital consoles is that the faders don't always serve the same function. I've watched this throw many a board op over the years. For example Yamaha often has modes where the faders on the consoles are no longer the input faders, but they become the aux send levels for each input or some other function. Well when you're in that mode it can sometimes be hard to remember that you can not just grab the fader for Input 1 and expect it to bring the level up and down, but really you're just turning up and down Input #1's Aux 1 send Level instead. (just as an example) That can be confusing. SAC doesn't really have an equivalent to this for what it's worth. The only thing I would point out with SAC (if you are using any sort of control surface at all) is that the faders might not always be the FOH mixer. If you are adjusting the Monitor Mixer #1 on screen then that is what the hardware faders will be as well. If you are working on the FOH mixer on the screen then that is what will be shown to you on the faders. So the faders can serve more than 1 purpose, sort of. But at least they will always match what is displayed on the computer screen in front of you. So I think that is actually a much easier to use model than some of the other makes and models where it's not always clear what mode you are in and I even confuse myself some days and think I'm in one mode when I'm in another, and I've been using digital consoles for years now. :)

I would suspect that with a P4 that is fairly well optimized you could mix 16 to maybe 24 channels of audio as long as you don't go hog wild with all the plug ins and how many outputs you are using. For example, the show that is showcased in that article I sent the link to, used a 3GHz PIV, with no Hyperthreading and only a 533MHz Front Side Bus, 1 GB of RAM. So while that is a fairly high clock speed on the PIV, it's not a terribly powerful computer by modern standards at all. And I was able to mix 16 inputs, with 3 separate reverbs running on Aux sends, lots of delay and echo effects, pitch shifting effects, plenty of EQ and dynamics used on the channel strips and using about 8 outputs total. So that's not a huge amount of mixing, but it probably had a lot more vocal effects than a typical show would as well. And my CPU display in SAC was running in the low 20***37; range. (20 to 24 percent at most) I suspect I could probably mix 24 inputs to a modest number of outputs on this system with no problems. And with one of my faster rigs I could mix a heck of a lot more. I would bet that your PIV system would at least serve to get you started and help you get used to SAC and digital mixing and then maybe you'll have to invest in a newer system. But you don't need to run out and buy some really pricey Quad Core with tons of RAM to reliably run plenty of I/O and mixing in SAC.

Richard