Question for the more computer knowledgeable users...

[sjpaul]

Hi,
in trying to pare down the hardware costs of the SAC system that I want to put together, I've noticed in some threads that people are getting good results using older machines running Intel Xeon processors.

There are loads of these systems on eBay here in the UK, but I'm not totally clued up on what's good and what's not - so.... advice needed please!

1st system:

INTEL XEON 2 X 2.8GHZ PROCESSORS
1024MB MEMORY




40GB HARD DRIVE


DVD/CD DRIVE

APPIAN P6-RV100/4P-A2 RADEON 7000 QUAD SCREEN GRAPHICS CARD OR NVIDIA 280S WITH VIDEO LEAD

8 X USB PORT

PARALLEL PORT, 2X SERIAL PORT

ETHERNET PORT

AUDIO PORTS

Integrated Input/Output Ports USB 2.0 x 8 ***8226; Serial Port x 2 ***8226; RJ45 Lan Port x 1 ***8226; PS/2 Mouse x 1 ***8226; PS/2 Keyboard x 1 ***8226; Parallel Port (ECP/EPP/SPP) x 1
2 x 5.25" (External Access) ***8226; 1 x 3.5" (External Access)

Expansion Slots
One PCI Express x16 Graphics slot with support for 150w graphics cards
One 32-bit/33 MHz PCI slot
One 64 bit/100 MHz PCIx slot
One PCI Express slot wired as x4 (2GB/s) but with a x8 connector. A x8 card installed in this slot will function at x4 speeds



2nd system:
Ultra Fast Dual Core Intel Xeon 2.4=4.8Ghz processors
Massive 2GB (2,048) RAM memory (upgradeable to 4GB)
Large 80GB storage hard drive (upgradeable to 2 x 1.5TB HDDs)
Both DVD-ROM & CD-RW ReWriter Drives
Dual monitor AGP graphics card
6 x latest USB 2.0 ports
Built-in sound
Built-in fast 1Gbit Ethernet Network
1 x AGP Slot
3 x PCI Slots

Could either of these systems be useable for running SAC host? I realise that the HDD's are on the small side but easy enough to add a 2nd HDD...

I plan on using an RME RayDAT card.

[DominicPerry]

My recollection is that the Dual Xeon system that someone was using (Chris/Warren?) achieved low latencies but didn't ultimately have enough power to run a huge amount of channels with processing.
If you want to cut costs, you don't need big hard drives, in fact if you're not recording, you could probably get away with a 5GB drive. You don't need huge amounts of memory - XP and SAC will run in 1GB. You don't need a powerful graphics card - onboard will probably do it, or an old video card, as long as it runs at the resolution you want.
Also, consider the E7200 and E7300 chips.
Don't forget the RayDAT is a PCIe card, so your 2nd system won't accomodate it.

Dominic

[sjpaul]

....... I should have expanded that in the future I'd want to use SAW Lite alongside SAC to do live recordings......

[gdougherty]

I concur with Dominic. If I had to pick, I'd take the 2.8Ghz chip over the 2.4 as well. IIRC, SAC runs primarily on one CPU and only benefits from the second for the GUI when the load gets pretty high on the first processor.

I'd rather have a newer faster chip though. The new 65w chips run cooler creating fewer heat problems in the case. Older server systems can also be very noisy and likely will not do well in quiet environments. With all my speaker processing in SAC, I'm running a comfortable 30% load for a 4-out mains configuration and 4 monitor mixes on an E8400. One of the E7000 series chips should do quite well. 1-2GB of RAM is all you need and onboard or an inexpensive graphics card will do just fine too.

[sjpaul]

Ok folks, thanks.....

Perhaps best spending a bit more up front on a custom system with newer processor.

Here's one that I'd looked at having built:

1U rack mount case
SATA II 500GB UDMA300 7200 16MB
ASUS 775 P5QPL-AM , Gig Lan, 8GB Max Ram, -Onboard Sound/Vid
Colour Matching DVDRW - SATA
2GB DDR II 800
INTEL CORE 2 DUO E8400 1333FSB SKT775 RE
250w PSU

Could you look at this and tell me whether this one would fly?

My plan is to have all my kit in a 10U rackmount case. PC at the bottom then a space above then an ADA8000, another space then another ADA8000, etc... expandable up to 4 x ADA8000 and a power conditioner at the top.

The spaces are to allow right angle XLR's to be used on the front of the ADA8000's with cable looms routed to the rear of the flightcase and out to 8 channel sub-snakes. Everything stays patched up inside the case. All I should need to do when setting up is attach a keyboard, mouse and monitor, yeah?

[905shmick]

Personally, I wouldn't go with anything less than a 3U case to ensure proper cooling.

[DominicPerry]

Personally, I wouldn't go with anything less than a 3U case to ensure proper cooling.

Yes, I don't know where you are going to do your mixing, if at all with this rig, but you'll never get a 1U box to sound anything less than 'jet taking off'. Two reasons - the fans have to be small and the CPU can't have a decent size cooler.
The rest looks fine except the PSU - I'd go for something bigger, at least 400W. Or even more if you want multiple RayDATs + multiple drives. I have a 625w in mine, so I know I don't have to worry.

Dominic

[sjpaul]

Yes, I don't know where you are going to do your mixing, if at all with this rig, but you'll never get a 1U box to sound anything less than 'jet taking off'. Two reasons - the fans have to be small and the CPU can't have a decent size cooler.
The rest looks fine except the PSU - I'd go for something bigger, at least 400W. Or even more if you want multiple RayDATs + multiple drives. I have a 625w in mine, so I know I don't have to worry.

Dominic


This is excellent info - thanks so much cos my computer knowledge is at a pretty average level......:rolleyes:

I've revised the system - only differences are that it would be in a 4u rack mount case and would come with a 600w PSU.

Good to go?:)

[gdougherty]

This is excellent info - thanks so much cos my computer knowledge is at a pretty average level......:rolleyes:

I've revised the system - only differences are that it would be in a 4u rack mount case and would come with a 600w PSU.

Good to go?:)

I'd go with DDR2-1066 over 800 if you're going with the E8400. Price difference is usually negligible. You could save a few bucks and step back to the E7400 if you wanted and still have plenty of processing power.
Get a Western Digital Black or any other drive that ships with a 5 year warranty. Those are usually engineered for longer life. I can vouch for the Black series as being a well built drive over others.
I picked up a rackmount APC UPS. SmartUPS SC1000 I found for $200US shipped with boost and trim voltage regulation. IMO, well worth it over a power conditioner.

Oh and I like the right angle XLR idea with spaces between the ADA's and everything living in the rack. Finding space for the subsnakes in the rack may be problematic.

[sjpaul]

I'd go with DDR2-1066 over 800 if you're going with the E8400. Price difference is usually negligible. You could save a few bucks and step back to the E7400 if you wanted and still have plenty of processing power.
Get a Western Digital Black or any other drive that ships with a 5 year warranty. Those are usually engineered for longer life. I can vouch for the Black series as being a well built drive over others.
I picked up a rackmount APC UPS. SmartUPS SC1000 I found for $200US shipped with boost and trim voltage regulation. IMO, well worth it over a power conditioner.

Oh and I like the right angle XLR idea with spaces between the ADA's and everything living in the rack. Finding space for the subsnakes in the rack may be problematic.


The supplier I've been looking at doesn't seem to offer 1066 ram with their systems. And there doesn't appear to be a choice of HDD manufacturers offered either....

I hadn't thought about a UPS. The power conditioner was only being used as a distro since I already have a couple kicking around in outboard racks at the moment.

Right angled XLR's are not my idea (another user on here has done this already!) and I think the sub snakes would need to live in another box, maybe leave the short looms inside the SAC flightcase joining with EDAC connectors or something. Actually, this is starting to sound like a lot of work!! Maybe no sub snakes at all.....

Question for Dominic since he's also in the UK..... anywhere that you would recommend for a rack mount PC? I've been looking at X-Case....

[DominicPerry]

Sorry, I've never bought a rack mount case. Nor have I ever managed to buy all my stuff from one place, come to think of it. The places I do use are (in order of preference)
www.scan.co.uk
www.quietpc.co.uk
www.kustompcs.co.uk
www.dabs.com
www.ebuyer.com

Dabs and eBuyer are ok but their descriptions aren't so hot, whereas you can work out what you want easily with scan, - then find it's out of stock and buy elsewhere. Scan is generally resonably priced too, and I've cancelled loads of orders with them - their returns policy is very good.

Dominic

[mycorn]

unless you spend a fortune power "conditioners" are glorified serge protectors

the first time the power blinks you'l wish you had a UPS

please dont ask me how i know this...

mh

[IanD]

The supplier I've been looking at doesn't seem to offer 1066 ram with their systems. And there doesn't appear to be a choice of HDD manufacturers offered either....

I hadn't thought about a UPS. The power conditioner was only being used as a distro since I already have a couple kicking around in outboard racks at the moment.

Right angled XLR's are not my idea (another user on here has done this already!) and I think the sub snakes would need to live in another box, maybe leave the short looms inside the SAC flightcase joining with EDAC connectors or something. Actually, this is starting to sound like a lot of work!! Maybe no sub snakes at all.....

Question for Dominic since he's also in the UK..... anywhere that you would recommend for a rack mount PC? I've been looking at X-Case....

Assuming you want a rack case that isn't intended for a server (probably more than 500mm deep) there are very few choices in the UK (I've looked extensively) -- X-Case have "short" 2U and 4U cases (but no 3U) which don't seem very good quality, the only smaller depth cases are the Janus ones but they're very expensive (but higher quality, fan filters etc), the DS35 3U one (275mm deep, takes full-height cards) is £120+VAT (no PSU)

http://www.just-cases.com/data/janus.html

Ian

[gdougherty]

unless you spend a fortune power "conditioners" are glorified serge protectors

the first time the power blinks you'l wish you had a UPS

please dont ask me how i know this...

mh

+100,000. It's one thing if your analog or standard digital board loses power. Even with my O1v I'm about 5 seconds from restored audio. Boot time on the rackmount rig is more like 30 seconds. Then you have to get everything reloaded and set properly while everyone's starring at you and sweat's pour down your forehead.

That's not to mention what voltage swings from 104-130V off a crappy generator will do to the longevity of all the sensitive computer gear. A top quality power supply will help protect the computer but what about those ADA's?

A UPS is required gear for any digital rig IMO.

[sjpaul]

Valid points that I hadn't given much thought to, especially as losing power to an analog desk happened to me recently at a gig when a musician decided to unplug the FOH mixer power plug so that he could plug in his pedal board between songs!

He got shouted at.....

I suppose I'll need to factor in a UPS in to the costs as well then.....

[Trackzilla]

Conventional wisdom is 2-3U case for two reasons.
1) Cooling vs noise
2) you only get one card slot with a 1U case

I have gotten around both of those successfully.

1) Do not try to cool a 1U case with a standard cooling solution. They are extremely noisy for limited cooling. Instead think external & case mods. I used a PABST crossflow blower that was 45mm square & 300MM long for 120CFM of airflow with only about 45dB of noise. Take a dremel and cut a slot in the top panel of the case in the back near the connectors. Mount the fan with two face tape so it is an exit fan almost the whole length of the case. It sticks up making the back of the case 2U height, but lots of other equipment is shallow enough that it can fit in the front section and you lose no rack space. This method has worked for both my e8500 based SAC rig & my dual Dual core xeon video processing computer. Both have not exceeded 40 degrees in the hottest weather we've seen so far. One advantage server boards have is they are designed for rack mounting, so the components are often laid out to allow better airflow (standard PC MB will position the RAM so it obstructs the front>back airflow past the CPU).

2) MOTU gets you the whole 72 CH IO capability in one PCI or PCIe slot, the only thing that MOTU does 'better' than RME ;) and the onboard video is fine for SAC so no need for an external graphics card.

Not saying "do this instead", but rather pointing out that it CAN be done if you really want a 1U(ish) solution ;)

On both computers I used Supermicro 1U 14" deep 'shallow' cases...they even fit a slim DVD-RW & 2 hard drives

[sjpaul]

Thanks for all the replies....

It seems the more answers there are, the more variables to system design it throws up!

Current state of play:
PC not yet ordered..... still looking at the 4u short rackmount from X case with the E8400 CPU and 2 Gb ram, as much because they will put the whole thing together as a package and I'm not that confident to build a PC myself having never done it!

I've an RME Hammerfall HDSP9652 bought s/hand from eBay, so the system will be used as 24 ins and probably a max of 8 outs, so I need the PC to fit around this soundcard now.

I already have 2 x ADA8000's and also I have that firefly 808 that I think I can use as 8 pres and 8 outs using ADAT?..... I'd probably sell it and get another ADA8000 just to keep things matched.

I already have a laptop with wireless that can be used as the remote machine.

Do the FX plugins shown in the SAC demo come loaded on the full software or do I still need to buy a load of plugins?

So, still need to a) buy a PC for SAC host, b) buy full version of SAC, c)buy a wireless router (any suggestions)

Have I missed anything? My head hurts now....!:confused:

[DominicPerry]

Conventional wisdom is 2-3U case for two reasons.
1) Cooling vs noise
2) you only get one card slot with a 1U case

I have gotten around both of those successfully.

1) Do not try to cool a 1U case with a standard cooling solution. They are extremely noisy for limited cooling. Instead think external & case mods. I used a PABST crossflow blower that was 45mm square & 300MM long for 120CFM of airflow with only about 45dB of noise. Take a dremel and cut a slot in the top panel of the case in the back near the connectors. Mount the fan with two face tape so it is an exit fan almost the whole length of the case. It sticks up making the back of the case 2U height, but lots of other equipment is shallow enough that it can fit in the front section and you lose no rack space. This method has worked for both my e8500 based SAC rig & my dual Dual core xeon video processing computer. Both have not exceeded 40 degrees in the hottest weather we've seen so far. One advantage server boards have is they are designed for rack mounting, so the components are often laid out to allow better airflow (standard PC MB will position the RAM so it obstructs the front>back airflow past the CPU).

2) MOTU gets you the whole 72 CH IO capability in one PCI or PCIe slot, the only thing that MOTU does 'better' than RME ;) and the onboard video is fine for SAC so no need for an external graphics card.

Not saying "do this instead", but rather pointing out that it CAN be done if you really want a 1U(ish) solution ;)

On both computers I used Supermicro 1U 14" deep 'shallow' cases...they even fit a slim DVD-RW & 2 hard drives

Clever stuff.:)

Dominic

[Bob L]

SAC comes with very high quality and cpu efficient Eq, Comps and Gates on all the mixer input channels. It also supplies the Echo/Delay plug, and Graphic/Parametric Eq plug.

My Reverb, Frequency Analizer and Levelizer plugs are purchased separately... and there are some very good native protocol plugs available from some third party vendors... there are also hundreds of free VST and DX plugs available, as well as many more commercial ones out there to pick from.

Bob L

[sjpaul]

Bob....
I'm so dumb. I've just realised that all the plugins (apart from the 2 SAC ones) that are showing on the demo when I go to "view FX" are the waves plugins I use with Cubase!
I take it that I can just install these on my SAC host machine?

[Bob L]

You can install any plugins you already have on the SAC Host machine... as long as the plugs do not lock you out with copy schemes for multiple machines.

DX plugs already installed will show in the list by default. VST plugs have to be dropped in the VST_Plugins folder under the SAC folder or you must create link .ini files to point SAC to where they are installed (a much better method than moving the dlls).

Bob L

[dbarrow]

You can install any plugins you already have on the SAC Host machine... as long as the plugs do not lock you out with copy schemes for multiple machines.

DX plugs already installed will show in the list by default. VST plugs have to be dropped in the VST_Plugins folder under the SAC folder or you must create link .ini files to point SAC to where they are installed (a much better method than moving the dlls).

Bob L
Tell me again how to do the link.ini file(s). I missed that one somehow.

[Bob L]

This info is in the helpfile... again... its good advice to read thru the entire file at least once... it will answer many questions before you think to ask them, and many questions you would never think to ask, because this environment can take you places you have never been before.

From the helpfile.....

Regarding installation of VST Plug-ins: Many VST installers will ask for a destination folder. You should choose the VST_PlugIns folder under the SAC main folder. Some of these installers will create another subfolder inside of the chosen folder.

For VST plug-ins to show up correctly inside of SAC, they must be directly inside of the VST_PlugIns folder. If a VST plug-in does not show up in the SAC FX Choices list, check the VST_PlugIns folder to see if a subfolder was created and simply move the applicable plug-in .dll file(s) into the VST_PlugIns folder directly.

Some VST Plug-In installations will hardcode or otherwise force their plug-in path to remain intact as installed and will not allow the .dlls to be moved into the SAC VST_PlugIns folder.

SAC will allow VST Plugins to reside in any folder on any drive by placing an .ini file substitute in the VST_Plugins folder pointing to the full path of the dll file itself.

Open the Notepad (or any other ascii text editor) to create a new text file. Inside the file, type the full drive and path and original .dll filename on the first line of the file. Make sure to finish the line with a carriage return by pressing the [Enter] key to return the cursor to the start of the next line. Then save the file as an .ini file using the same name as the plugin itself.

For example, if a VST Plugin called TestPlug.dll is installed to D:\VST\Work, then create an .ini file called TestPlug.ini and inside the file type the line D:\VST\Work\TestPlug.dll followed by a carriage return. This .ini file, placed in the VST_PlugIns folder under SAC, will now link SAC to find the VST plug-in in its originally installed path. This can help solve compatibility issues with hardwired path plug-ins and their various copy protection schemes.

[Wam3]

I would get a wireless N router, and wireless N card/usb for your laptop. Not only is it faster, but it is way less crowded .... I have been in places where the G traffic was so huge that I couldn't get a good connection and had to run cat 5 - yea, get a 100ft cat 5/5e cable. You never know when you will need it.

W

[dbarrow]

I would get a wireless N router, and wireless N card/usb for your laptop. Not only is it faster, but it is way less crowded .... I have been in places where the G traffic was so huge that I couldn't get a good connection and had to run cat 5 - yea, get a 100ft cat 5/5e cable. You never know when you will need it.

W
Aren't B. G & N all the same frequency? I have a combo router/access point that does A, B & G. I use 802.11a most of the time, because I NEVER see any other traffic on A. I may get a D-Link combo router that does A, B, G, & N, so I have everything covered. Also, I carry 2 100' CAT5 cables, with another 50' and a 25' and some couplers just in case. I had to use them several times before I switched to using 802.11a, due to choking levels of B and G traffic (both are the same?).

[Bob L]

Its not just about frequency... its about speed... A is extremely slow for SAC host/remote data... B can work, but even G is on the edge.

N would be my choice... DLink N Xtreme seems to be working very well in two Vegas hotel installations where RFI interference can be pretty tough to get around.

Bob L

[gdougherty]

Aren't B. G & N all the same frequency? I have a combo router/access point that does A, B & G. I use 802.11a most of the time, because I NEVER see any other traffic on A. I may get a D-Link combo router that does A, B, G, & N, so I have everything covered. Also, I carry 2 100' CAT5 cables, with another 50' and a 25' and some couplers just in case. I had to use them several times before I switched to using 802.11a, due to choking levels of B and G traffic (both are the same?).

Yes and no. The basic level of N is still in the 2.4Ghz range. The spec also allows for 5.2Ghz transmission though. 5.2Ghz N is probably the optimal if you want to be isolated from everything else. You pay more for those, but it seems worth it.