Drum triggering inside SAC

[Larry Burger]

We use drumagog in SAW but it does not operate in SAC so the latency must be to much.
Does anyone use trigger samples via midi and or microphones live with good results?

[Bob L]

It does work in SAC if you use the Zero Latency mode of Drumagog... although there is something about it that forces you to start and stop the engine, then start again before it passes audio... not sure what that is... but then it does work.

Bob L

[phoneeko]

Getting drumagog to work decently is mostly up to the drummer and his drum kit
A good drummer will give consistent hits that are less prone to false triggering and also in my experience using drumagog live with a vst host u need the drummer to tune his heads as tight as possible and get lots of absorbant in the drums itself. Since drumagog will be set up with 0 latency (crap) this will make the triggering via microphone much more efficient, but unfortunately will also usually kill the natural sound of the drum. ...and the toms are gonna sound like plasic when they bleed in to the overheads.
In the end i opted to buyng an old Alesis D4 and cheap Ddrum triggers off ebay, the alesis working simply as a midi out to EZDrummer or even drumagog running in the vst host.
Will try this set-up with SAC in 2 weeks during a metal performance :) .

Alex.

[phoneeko]

I just played around with a vst called apTrigga2 from apulsoft. Similar to drumagog but without multisamples (i think). U can tweak the samples in to realtime pitch/envelope etc depending on trigger level thou. I think its awsome. Try it out!

[Wam3]

What kind of cpu load did it add when you loaded it up with samples? I would try it out, but I don't have any drums samples handy :)

[IraSeigel]

It does work in SAC if you use the Zero Latency mode of Drumagog... although there is something about it that forces you to start and stop the engine, then start again before it passes audio... not sure what that is... but then it does work.

Bob L

I'm resurrecting this old thread because I'm trying to get Drumagog to work in v 2.4 of SAC. There are many threads containing info on Drumagog - I just picked this one.

For the life of me, I can't figure it out. And unfortunately, I mentioned to the artist I'm working with that I was going to try it out, and now she's expecting it to happen. Yesterday.

I installed the most recent version of Drumagog into the VST_PlugIns folder of SAC, and I let the install routine choose where to install the other files. I have not done anything with a SAC FX ini file.

I chose to patch Drumagog as a return. Then I chose the mic channels to send to the return via an Aux send. I can get the mic into and out of the return bus, but I can get Drumagog to process anything. The meters show no input. I'm using the Live mode of the demo download.

If I can get it to work, then I'll buy a license, as was suggested in a current thread on this topic.

Any (immediate!) help will be most welcome.

In the meantime, a contributor just before me suggested apTrigga, which I'll try

Cheers,
Ira

[sjpaul]

Ira,

having tried out the Drumagaog demo in a DAW, I'm slightly confused by your setup....

Is it not usual to patch an instance of Drumagog as a pre-fade insert on each channel you want it to trigger from? i.e. kick, pre fade then select the mix as 100% drum sample, etc.... this is how I've got it to work. Can't say I've tried it live in SAC though. You need to tweak the input level and sensitivity so that it doesn't stutter or miss out actual drum hits.

[gdougherty]

Ira,

having tried out the Drumagaog demo in a DAW, I'm slightly confused by your setup....

Is it not usual to patch an instance of Drumagog as a pre-fade insert on each channel you want it to trigger from? i.e. kick, pre fade then select the mix as 100% drum sample, etc.... this is how I've got it to work. Can't say I've tried it live in SAC though. You need to tweak the input level and sensitivity so that it doesn't stutter or miss out actual drum hits.

+1, this is how I suggested using Drumagog in the other thread. Ira, you need to play with an input source to be able to trigger Drumagog. It'll likely take some adjusting of the thresholds and whatnot in Drumagog. There are lots of options to tighten things up and reduce false triggers. I know it works in SAC as I've downloaded and played with it using my laptop and firewire interface last year. Patch it on the channel you want to replace instead of on an aux. I had a mic turning a slap on my leg into one of the included kick samples. It was sweet and wild.

[Larry Burger]

The last version I used was 4.11.
As Bob stated I had to engage. disengage and re-engage SAC to get Drumagog to trigger.

I also used Drumagog NOT fixed latency.
Click the advanced tab and set to LIVE 00 latency

[IraSeigel]

Ira,

having tried out the Drumagaog demo in a DAW, I'm slightly confused by your setup....

Is it not usual to patch an instance of Drumagog as a pre-fade insert on each channel you want it to trigger from? i.e. kick, pre fade then select the mix as 100% drum sample, etc.... this is how I've got it to work. Can't say I've tried it live in SAC though. You need to tweak the input level and sensitivity so that it doesn't stutter or miss out actual drum hits.

OK, thanks Steven. The Drumagog GUI is huge, tho. Having even one instance open (I'd need 2) would really eat up a lot of my screens. But I'll try it that way.

Meanwhile, the GUI for apTrigga (I hate that name) is very small. I was able to use it on an Aux send and return, but with no drum samples to patch into it, I couldn't give it a complete test.

But thanks for these suggestions, and I'll do this at my next soundcheck tomorrow. Asheville, NC.

Ira

[gdougherty]

OK, thanks Steven. The Drumagog GUI is huge, tho. Having even one instance open (I'd need 2) would really eat up a lot of my screens. But I'll try it that way.

Meanwhile, the GUI for apTrigga (I hate that name) is very small. I was able to use it on an Aux send and return, but with no drum samples to patch into it, I couldn't give it a complete test.

But thanks for these suggestions, and I'll do this at my next soundcheck tomorrow. Asheville, NC.

Ira

Drumagog only does one output sample set at a time. It's a kick or a snare or what have you. Being on an aux only adds unnecessary complexity. Patch your first one and tweak it to properly trigger. Once that's done, you shouldn't need to touch it again. You may want to move the fx point before the EQ and dynamics if you want to tweak anything. Repeat for as many channels as you need, keep the GUI closed.

[Brent Evans]

Asheville, NC.

That's not too far from me. Details?

[Craig Allen]

That's not too far from me. Details?
Me, either. Where are you at Brent?

[Brent Evans]

Near Salisbury.

[IraSeigel]

I forgot there are some NC folks here.

Diana Wortham Theater in Asheville. Mon and Tues 8p.

If anyone can make it down, I'll put them on my guest list.

Providing you can get this silly Drumagog to work!!!!!!!! Grrrrr.

Ira

[Brent Evans]

I forgot there are some NC folks here.

Diana Wortham Theater in Asheville. Mon and Tues 8p.

If anyone can make it down, I'll put them on my guest list.

Providing you can get this silly Drumagog to work!!!!!!!! Grrrrr.

Ira

Love to come (which was why I inquired), but they're forecasting freezing rain tonight, and it's a 3 hour drive. :mad: Hence, the trip got vetoed by SWMBO.

Any other NC shows soon?

[gdougherty]

Okay, I'm looking at the demo version.

Example, Kick on input 1, patch Drumagog (not the fixed latency version) as a pre-fade fx on input 1. Set input 1 on the FOH Pre-fx Patch Signal Flow list under the Mixer menu if you want to EQ or compress the result.

On the Drumagog GUI, go to the advanced tab and select live mode. We're dealing with a kick channel so we don't need to mess with optimizing, it's mic'd not midi triggered so nothing to touch there. I left the other stuff alone. Jump back to the Main tab, select PRockKick or Techno Kick 4 for your sample set. I use the visual mode toggle down at lower right to make my adjustments on Sensitivity and Resolution. Sensitivity is your trigger threshold, resolution is how closely the trigger impulses can be spaced IIRC. Set those against your input to get it firing on only the appropriate signals. You can play with the filters to cut down the triggering frequencies if you need. The default mix and pitch settings should output what you want for standard drum replacement. Everything else is standard SAC routing.

Give it a go from there.

[IraSeigel]

Okay, I'm looking at the demo version.

Example, Kick on input 1, patch Drumagog (not the fixed latency version) as a pre-fade fx on input 1. Set input 1 on the FOH Pre-fx Patch Signal Flow list under the Mixer menu if you want to EQ or compress the result.

On the Drumagog GUI, go to the advanced tab and select live mode. We're dealing with a kick channel so we don't need to mess with optimizing, it's mic'd not midi triggered so nothing to touch there. I left the other stuff alone. Jump back to the Main tab, select PRockKick or Techno Kick 4 for your sample set. I use the visual mode toggle down at lower right to make my adjustments on Sensitivity and Resolution. Sensitivity is your trigger threshold, resolution is how closely the trigger impulses can be spaced IIRC. Set those against your input to get it firing on only the appropriate signals. You can play with the filters to cut down the triggering frequencies if you need. The default mix and pitch settings should output what you want for standard drum replacement. Everything else is standard SAC routing.

Give it a go from there.

Thanks for these details.

I finally got it to pass audio.
I reinstalled into the Drumagog default folders and wrote an .ini file. But I'm not sure that's what fixed it. What I did was stopped and started the SAC engine, then stopped and started the engine AGAIN. After the second time, I got it to pass audio and generate the effect.

And it seems that each time to do an insert (I have it inserted onto 2 different inputs), you have to go thru that routine. Strange (I think that's what Bob said, too.)

I also got apTrigga2 to work, but it had a very annoying click at the end of each sound, which I couldn't get rid of.

Question: when the VST is used as a PreFade insert, the gate on the channel doesn't work. Would the gate work if the VST was inserted PostFade. Sorry, never mind. I should just try it. But just ran out of time. Oh, never mind. I see your answer below!!

Ira

[Craig Allen]

I forgot there are some NC folks here.

Diana Wortham Theater in Asheville. Mon and Tues 8p.

If anyone can make it down, I'll put them on my guest list.

Providing you can get this silly Drumagog to work!!!!!!!! Grrrrr.

Ira

Love to make it, but working on a wiring job at night right now. More XLR's than I care to think about. Maybe next time you're around with the Fixx.

[Craig Allen]

Near Salisbury.

If you ever get out to G-boro, my band is gigging with SAC. Simple setup for a small band - 10 channels, 2 monitor mixes, all with an older Toshiba laptop. What shows are you doing in Salisbury?

[Brent Evans]

When you resurface from the show, how did Drumagog work?

[Brent Evans]

If you ever get out to G-boro, my band is gigging with SAC. Simple setup for a small band - 10 channels, 2 monitor mixes, all with an older Toshiba laptop. What shows are you doing in Salisbury?

My rig is installed in my church at the moment, I'm still building up the speaker part of it to try to do some gigs. I hope to have it complete by the end of summer, and I'll have to build up a second SAC rig, as we're finding we can't/won't do without it at the church.

[IraSeigel]

When you resurface from the show, how did Drumagog work?

I have to be REALLY conservative when I'm trying something new, so I ran D'gog on a channel in the background tonight, just to test things out (didn't route the output to the mains).

It added a few percent to CPU load, so no problem there. I did notice for the first time that I had a total of 5 slipped buffers for a 2 1/2 show. I couldn't tell where they came from - maybe when I moved the sliders on the SAW Reverb? - but I hadn't had any slipped buffers til tonight.


I used GDougherty's suggestion about the Mixer menu and the Pre-FX Patch Signal Flow option, and I was able to gate the sound to what I needed. THANKS!!


Tomorrow the crew is going to take me to a local music store called Musicians' Workshop, and I hope to talk to someone knowledgeable about contact mics and drum triggers. Maybe one of those will be a better trigger for D'gog than an SM91.

Natalie is very excited that I got it to work - THANKS TO ALL WHO HAD THE PATIENCE TO WALK ME THRU THIS!!! And I'll use it tomorrow in the show. Fingers crossed.

Yup, bad freezing rain forecast for tonight. But the moon is out now!!!

Cheers,
Ira

[gdougherty]

I have to be REALLY conservative when I'm trying something new, so I ran D'gog on a channel in the background tonight, just to test things out (didn't route the output to the mains).

It added a few percent to CPU load, so no problem there. I did notice for the first time that I had a total of 5 slipped buffers for a 2 1/2 show. I couldn't tell where they came from - maybe when I moved the sliders on the SAW Reverb? - but I hadn't had any slipped buffers til tonight.


I used GDougherty's suggestion about the Mixer menu and the Pre-FX Patch Signal Flow option, and I was able to gate the sound to what I needed. THANKS!!


Tomorrow the crew is going to take me to a local music store called Musicians' Workshop, and I hope to talk to someone knowledgeable about contact mics and drum triggers. Maybe one of those will be a better trigger for D'gog than an SM91.

Natalie is very excited that I got it to work - THANKS TO ALL WHO HAD THE PATIENCE TO WALK ME THRU THIS!!! And I'll use it tomorrow in the show. Fingers crossed.

Yup, bad freezing rain forecast for tonight. But the moon is out now!!!

Cheers,
Ira

Good to hear. I patched the demo on two mics we use on a cajon at our practice tonight. Snare sample for the side/slap mic, Kick sample on the rear port mic. It was pretty sweet listening to the percussionist pound away but in FOH it sounded like he was on a drum set.

[sjpaul]

I downloaded the demo the other day and tried it out on a live multitrack recording from Saturday night. I substituted kick and snare that just weren't really cutting it... Wow... what a difference! Punchy kick in the butt kick drum and sizzly brassy snare......

Triggering consistency was great, with the only issue being the snare on songs where the drummer was playing rimshots, but the hi hat mic was picking up enough spill from that anyway. Mics that were used were an Audix D6 on the kick and a Heil PR-20 on the snare.

As I mentioned, I haven't tried it live, but I could definately see it having uses for those times that a drummer turns up with a kit that sounds like biscuit tins being thrown down a flight of stairs...:D