VGA / USB extenders?

[ssrsound]

I'm still struggling with the lack of plugin control from the Remote screen. Part of my desire is to leave my snakes at home, and just run Ethernet to the back of the room. But if I can't bring my EQ control up, that's not really useful.

How about video/usb extenders? Anyone tried any of these with SAC? There's a few that will send video/usb 1.1 100 meters over Cat5 for not that high a price. if you're running your keyboard and mouse thorugh USB 1.1, is there enough bandwidth to also run a BCF2000 or two through the same wire?

[Phil]

I'd look at putting the SAC PC at FOH and run audiorail to extend the ADAT over Cat5. You could have Audio in and Solo Headphones at FOH then too if you left an I/O at the FOH location.

There are VGA and USB over cat5 too. VGA is usualy Baluns. The USB is a bit trickier. There are timing issues to be addressed with an extension.

I've been researching this for my church. I think we are going to SAC for FOH and Personal mixing. We'll probly endup with audiorails to keep the I/O's on stage. My inner geek in doing back-flips. :)

[Wam3]

Jim,

TightVNC works great for a whole bunch of folks here. I would give that a try for remotely adjusting EQ's and plugins.

W

[dbarrow]

I think Bob at least has main EQ on the way. I may be wrong, but it seems like he could add the same or similar EQ section that is on the channels to the main outs. I think he has something better than that in mind. At least that's the idea I got from his last few comments about it.

As far as FX, when he added the ability to save plugin presets as part of a scene, that got me 90% of the way there. I mainly use just a few presets anyway, versus constant tweaking. It's mainly a few reverb and delay time/feedback presets that get used over and over again. That's similar to how I mixed in the previous era.

[ssrsound]

VNC is an option. But it means a 2nd monitor to me, because I need those things available, and there's too much video latency to make VNC my only screen. I tried it and even moving sliders was painful.

Audiorail is interesting. It's more expensive than I wanted to spend right now, but it's an option I guess.

Though the most attractive thing would be to have plug-ins appear in SAC Remote. Then the FOH and the monitor person would both get them, and it's just Ethernet, so it's easy. Bob -- any thoughts yet on if that's even feasible?

[ssrsound]

An EQ on the outputs of each of the boards would make it workable. That's the only thing I really change during a show. Reverb I stick on an aux, so once I have a nice reverb for the room it's just a matter of how much I give someone.

[Bob L]

As mentioned before... remote control of plugins is a very complex issue, since the plugins are not part of the interface... and popping plugs on a FOH remote should not also pop them up on the monitior host machine (so as to not interfere with a second monitor engineer)... very tricky to attempt to control an invisible plugin interface that is not part of the main app. :)

Bob L

[Brent Evans]

VNC is an option. But it means a 2nd monitor to me, because I need those things available, and there's too much video latency to make VNC my only screen. I tried it and even moving sliders was painful.


I have no problems mixing on SAC remote and ALT-TAB flipping over to VNC to click on plugs (on the same monitor). I just keep all the plugs I need (3 instances of tapeit, mainly) up on the main screen on the host, with no mixers open. All mixing is done from remotes.

The trick to VNC working smoothly is a fast network connection, and setting a very fast screen refresh. When I installed TightVNC it refreshed automatically at something like 200ms. I changed it to 10ms, and I could (and had to for a few minutes during a laptop crash) actually run SAC through VNC, it was almost as good as running on SAC remote. I'm able to easily control plugs, DigiCheck, etc, even watch a RTA with very little issue.

I have to ask though, what plugs are you going to need to adjust so often, and why?

[ssrsound]

Mostly it's EQs. I do a whole lot of mixing where I set up in a room with really bad acoustics, get no sound check, and then have four different groups play. When joe-lead-singer starts wandering the stage and feeding back, I've got to be able to fix it.

I wish I could tune and ring out every room properly, but you rarely have the time. So you do it on the fly during the show.

[Brent Evans]

You can adjust the 5 band strip EQs from the remote, no need for plugs there.

The first few nights I used SAC I was kind of scared to mess with the Q settings on the strip EQ, but I found out that these are extremely useful in shaping sound. I kind of found it by accident, in that I swept Q when I meant to sweep frequency, and it fixed the problem.

I'd use VNC to work the 7 band (as many as you need) inserted on your outputs to work up a good shape for the sound, and then correct any feedback on the 5 band. Also, with SAC you can always set the system up in downtime and RTA or ring it out, then save those settings for later use. If using the same speakers and mics, they're going to ring in a lot of the same places each time, and if you can notch those known trouble spots ahead of time on plugs, then you've got 5 eqs at your fingertips for ringers.

You've also got those same 5 eqs on each monitor mixer so you can start by notching in the monitor mixes, then move to FOH (running monitor mixes post eq, at least) to have a total of 10 notches on each channel (assuming that each mic will probably only ring in one monitor mix).

SAC is so darn flexible you just have to not think about "how have I done this before." I'm thoroughly convinced that a large portion of bad mix decisions come from the limitations of the platform, not from the engineers ability to identify and fix problems. If you limit yourself to 'the old way' you'll make those same bad mix decisions with the most flexibile mixer ever invented.

[Pedro Itriago]

There has been something I've started to take a serious look, although you need at least XP to use it. It's wireless USB & wireless USB VGA extenders.

I've been researching this for giving the finishing touches to my new room. I want to have the computers out of it. I bought a wireless KVM that I have around here somewhere, but it's IR, so needs direct line of sigght for the IR to travel.

The difference so far I've seen regarding balun VGA and wireless USB is that the former limits itself to 1024x768, whereas the latter can go upwards of 1600x1200. I have to investigate a little depper regarding framerates & distances of both systems, but I'm liking the wireless approach more and more to even considering upgrading from w2k to xp.

Wireless vga (http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-USB-To-VGA-Kit/dp/B001JEPC40/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1251207321&sr=8-3) up to 30 feet direct line of sight

Complete wireless USB (http://www.amazon.com/IOGear-Wireless-Audio-Video-Adapters/dp/B0021AG1KK/ref=pd_cp_e_1) including vga and audio up to 30 feet direct line of sight


Then, I just found this (http://www.belkin.com/wizard/(S(5ffo0l55sguemfqp01j4u3ut))/av360/Default.aspx?type=vga&vid=0&cid=1&lid=1) Belkin wired solution. You can have vga only or vga + analog audio or HDMI from 25 feet to 300 feet

[dbarrow]

I have no problems mixing on SAC remote and ALT-TAB flipping over to VNC to click on plugs (on the same monitor). I just keep all the plugs I need (3 instances of tapeit, mainly) up on the main screen on the host, with no mixers open. All mixing is done from remotes.

The trick to VNC working smoothly is a fast network connection, and setting a very fast screen refresh. When I installed TightVNC it refreshed automatically at something like 200ms. I changed it to 10ms, and I could (and had to for a few minutes during a laptop crash) actually run SAC through VNC, it was almost as good as running on SAC remote. I'm able to easily control plugs, DigiCheck, etc, even watch a RTA with very little issue.

I have to ask though, what plugs are you going to need to adjust so often, and why?
Where do you set the screen refresh? On the server or the remote? Forgive me for asking, but I don't have SAC and the remote up and going at this moment.

[dbarrow]

The more I read these comments and the more I use SAC, the more I realize what a huge leap forward having EQ on the main outs will be and I believe Bob said that was in an upcoming update. Looking forward to it!

[Brent Evans]

Where do you set the screen refresh? On the server or the remote? Forgive me for asking, but I don't have SAC and the remote up and going at this moment.

It's on the server. Right click on the TightVNC tray icon, select properties, under the hooks tab, modify "polling cycle" to taste. A low polling cycle requires more bandwidth. There is a noticeable dip below 81mbps (based on wireless network properties) so, 100 megabit or gigabit wired, or N wireless is needed for best performance.

[ssrsound]

Oh, I am! I think that would solve about 90% of my worries.

Regarding VGA/USB extenders, I'm looking at the Gefen:
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=2294

or just the VGA:
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=1463

It's pricier than the Belkin, but it's the only one I've seen that does 1920x1024. I believe it's the same one I used a couple of years ago setting up graphics workstations in a pretty graphic-intensive space, and it worked well. It's mainly the USB I'm wondering about now... whether or not keyboard, mouse, and a Behringer fader panel would work over it at the same time.

...but then I get back to one of the things that originally attracted me to this setup, which is the easy remote. I think I may revert back to using Remote and VNC, just to keep things simple. If we get EQ on the output, that'll be enough.

[gdougherty]

Oh, I am! I think that would solve about 90% of my worries.

Regarding VGA/USB extenders, I'm looking at the Gefen:
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=2294

or just the VGA:
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=1463

It's pricier than the Belkin, but it's the only one I've seen that does 1920x1024. I believe it's the same one I used a couple of years ago setting up graphics workstations in a pretty graphic-intensive space, and it worked well. It's mainly the USB I'm wondering about now... whether or not keyboard, mouse, and a Behringer fader panel would work over it at the same time.

...but then I get back to one of the things that originally attracted me to this setup, which is the easy remote. I think I may revert back to using Remote and VNC, just to keep things simple. If we get EQ on the output, that'll be enough.

Adjusting EQ over tightvnc is easy enough with plenty of network bandwidth. The RTA and items like that become much more intensive.

[Wink0r]

If you plug a controller into a remote I don't believe you have to worry about sending those signals on the net. The control surface interfaces with the remote and the remote controls SAC. At least that is how I understand it and how it appears to work in the Harrah's video.

[Bob L]

That is correct.

Bob L

[RBIngraham]

While I have not used the CAT5 KVM extenders with SAC yet, I have used them extensivly for other applications. To my mind they are the best solution for remote of any computers and I wouldn't mess around with anything wireless in this catagory. Bob has created a very nice, stable remote applicaiton for use with SAC but his software is the exception by far. For years I tinkered around with Windows Remote desktop and PCAnywhere and various VNC apps. They all have some latency (although Windows built in Remote Desktop is pretty dam good, but it's drawback is that you then loose the local KVM, when a remote is logged in) and they all can get sluggish if there is much happening over the network or with lots of screen redraws, even on wired Gigabit networks. At least in my experience.

I highly recomend the Geffen KVM extenders if you can afford them. They have units that will do DVI rather than just VGA, they have units that support Dual Head displays and they have some that will allow you to have USB 1.1 devices remoted as well as your USB keyboard and mouse. (some have remote audio in addition, that could be very handy, image having a remote keyboard, monitor, mouse, a USB control surface and stereo audio all over 1 CAT5 cable) But the Geffen units are not cheap.

I personally own a IOGear unit and that has been rock solid. At the summer theatre I work at we depend on it to run live shows from a computer that is sometimes 3 floors away from the operator. And other than some bad cables due to us having to move ther remote KVM location around a lot this unit has been flawless. (hey, it's repertory theatre, so the one computer is being used for 5 shows in 2 rooms in the same building, sometimes 3 shows per day, plus tech rehearsals, so crew members occasionally forget that RJ45s are not the most robust connectors around) :)

And it's less than half the cost of the Geffen unit I bought for another venue.

For what it's worth I think Belkin makes some of the worst crap in the IT world. And their KVM extenders are no exception. I have seen endless issues with Belkin KVM extenders in the theatre world. 9 times out of 10 when I've had a report of KVM extender issues (mouse suddenly stops working, keyboard stop working, etc...) when I ask the customer, they were using a Belkin unit. Just my personal experience, but there you have it.

Richard