insert and shift?

[Scott P]

I know that if I try to insert a region into a space not big enough, I am prompted to insert and overwrite.

Is there a way to place the cursor at the end of one region, highlight another region, hit "backspace" and have the highlighted region be inserted where the cursor is, but the following regions shifted so that they but up to the end of the inserted region?

Make sense? :confused:

I've been shifting regions to make room for the larger region, then moving them back to where I need them, which is okay. I am just wondering if there is an easier way.

Thanks!
Scott

[Grekim]

I know that if I try to insert a region into a space not big enough, I am prompted to insert and overwrite.

Is there a way to place the cursor at the end of one region, highlight another region, hit "backspace" and have the highlighted region be inserted where the cursor is, but the following regions shifted so that they but up to the end of the inserted region?

Make sense? :confused:

I've been shifting regions to make room for the larger region, then moving them back to where I need them, which is okay. I am just wondering if there is an easier way.

Thanks!
Scott

You can't get items to automatically move downstream. You'll want to explore the Slip track features.

[Bob L]

Items will move downstream when you insert something into a hole that will then need to push following regions downstream... you will be prompted to say ok.

Dragging entries and dropping them behave differently... asking you to insert and overwrite conflicting entries.

But... using a straight region insert will ask to push following entries downstream... so... you can double click the region you want to move and insert... this hilites it in the region list... then just place your MT cursor and press the insert key and it will prompt to push entries that conflict.

You can also mark a small area that is not a complete region and press Ctrl_C to copy that data and make it a region... it is now hilited in the regions list and ready for insert... which will prompt to push entries downstream.

There are many subtle design items like this and many variations for moving, copying, with and without inserts and so forth... you just have to explore each of the many variations on entry manipulation and learn how they all interact so you can be ready to use the one you need in any given situation.

Bob L

[Scott P]

I figured that there was a way to do this. Now, I just need to work on the implementation. :D

One thing I need to figure is how to select multiple regions, say a section from tracks 1-8 to be inserted into tracks 1-8.

This will be fun. :D

Thanks Bob!

[Bob L]

Look at Select Mode... read about this in the helpfile.

You may also want to familiarize yourself with the Rollover Context help and how that functions... activate it... and rollover a region on the MT and then click... you can then read all kinds of quick tips and details on how to manipulate that region.

Bob L

[Grekim]

I figured that there was a way to do this. Now, I just need to work on the implementation. :D

One thing I need to figure is how to select multiple regions, say a section from tracks 1-8 to be inserted into tracks 1-8.

This will be fun. :D

Thanks Bob!

Yeah, Bob would know the subtleties better than I :D. I assumed you wanted to work with multiple tracks as I sometimes do when a client says "can you double the length of the solo section" or something. As far as I know, you can't use the CTRL-C or double click and insert in the gap idea for more than one track at a time. But, if you use Bob's method for one track and then you have essentially "measured" the space for the rest of the tracks. Next, in select mode use the alt key to select multiple regions (click on top region and alt-click on bottom one). With some practice you can quickly move all the other regions to the place they should be, thus creating a meaured gap. Then using alt again, select all the regions you wish to copy. Use the drag/right click drop method to put copies into the gaps.

[Dave Labrecque]

Items will move downstream when you insert something into a hole that will then need to push following regions downstream... you will be prompted to say ok.

Dragging entries and dropping them behave differently... asking you to insert and overwrite conflicting entries.

But... using a straight region insert will ask to push following entries downstream... so... you can double click the region you want to move and insert... this hilites it in the region list... then just place your MT cursor and press the insert key and it will prompt to push entries that conflict.

You can also mark a small area that is not a complete region and press Ctrl_C to copy that data and make it a region... it is now hilited in the regions list and ready for insert... which will prompt to push entries downstream.

There are many subtle design items like this and many variations for moving, copying, with and without inserts and so forth... you just have to explore each of the many variations on entry manipulation and learn how they all interact so you can be ready to use the one you need in any given situation.

Bob L

Bob, this only pushes butt-spliced following regions downstream, right?

Is there a modifier key or some other way to push all following regions downstream when doing an insert? That could be mighty helpful at times. I often need to enter select mode and highlight all the following regions to do this.

BTW, I've just discovered that drag 'n' drop works as you describe when using a region from the MT (prompting to overwrite following data), but when alt-dragging a marked area from the SF view, it doesn't prompt to overwrite, but to move some regions, much like using the insert function. Another subtlety...

[Bob L]

Inserting from the regions view will move the entire timeline downstream if prompted of a conflict.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Inserting from the regions view will move the entire timeline downstream if prompted of a conflict.

Bob L

Interesting. Didn't know that, thanks.

After a little testing, though, it appears that it only moves non-butt-spliced downstream regions if their original placement is challenged by the insert operation. If they're far enough downstream and out of the way, they don't move.

How do you feel about making everything downstream move over, rather than just those regions that are "in the way"? Either by a tweak to the way Region View inserting works currently, or through another (added) function?

It'd be nice to have the option. At least in my experience.

[Bob L]

You mean like a forced ripple mode... insert and push everything no matter what.... well... I'll mark it down... but... I really never saw a need for this... the Slip Track(s) function already allows you to move everything and slide it down the timeline... if you know you want to slide everything 10 secs down the timeline, you don't need to do that by inserting a region.

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

You mean like a forced ripple mode... insert and push everything no matter what.... well... I'll mark it down... but... I really never saw a need for this... the Slip Track(s) function already allows you to move everything and slide it down the timeline... if you know you want to slide everything 10 secs down the timeline, you don't need to do that by inserting a region.

Bob L

Bob,

It's not that I'm using the region insert to move the stuff x seconds, it's that I'm moving stuff x seconds to make room for the new region. I don't know going in how much I want to move the stuff; the region length determines that.

Here's the typical scenario where it comes up a lot for me:

I'm editing a VO for a radio spot. There are lots of edits already down the timeline on the VO track. Some butt splices, some spaces. I'm replacing a single word early in the spot. I need to use a word from a different take, but it's a little longer time-wise than the one it's replacing, so when I try to drop it into the space I've created (by removing the old word), I need to move the whole existing edit job east of that point downstream, regardless of butts or no butts.

Currently, the way I handle it is to enter select mode, select the first "Eastern" region, hit the end key to select all other regions East of there, drag them all out of the way to the East, put the new word in, and then drag the selected regions back to the end of the new word and exit select mode.

A new "ripple" edit feature (so that's what that means :)) would make that seven-step operation a single step.

The problem, as I see it, with using the slip track feature for this is that the fact that you don't know the final resting place of the moved stuff (till the new region is in place) requires you to slip the track twice -- once to get the stuff out of the way, and again to put it where you want it to end up. That's a lot of marking and cursor placing and menu selecting, IMO.

I guess what I'm asking for is really just the flip side of the ctrl-delete coin. Something like ctrl-insert or drag 'n' control-drop would allow movement of following regions regardless of butt-splice condition. Why not round out the ensemble of edit commands with this?

[Grekim]

Dave, I do the same thing when replacing a chorus in a song not recorded to a click...client wants the rhythm guitar from chorus one used in chorus 2. Regions are of different lengths. So I do exactly what you do.
It is possible to determine the length, as you probably know, by CTRL-B'ing on the region you want to insert. Tabbing to the insert point. SHIFT-B'ing to move the marked area. CTRL-Right-arrow to go to the Eastern end of the marked area. No you've found your destination for the regions to start after the insert. So yeah, a forced ripple as it were would be handy indeed.

[Bob L]

Dave... ctrl insert is already taken... I'll have to think about it... but... in your example... I would think I would want it designed exactly the way it works now... if my whole production timing sounds correct as is... and then I decide to replace a word up front with a slightly longer one... why would I want the rest (which is already timed perfect) to move... only the phrase that the single word replacement affects. (up to the next blank).

That's precisely why I designed it the way it is... which is not a very common feature to find elsewhere. :)

It's funny... no matter how many clever things you think you are doing... someone always wants something different... there is no end to it. :D

Bob L

[Dave Labrecque]

Dave... ctrl insert is already taken... I'll have to think about it... but... in your example... I would think I would want it designed exactly the way it works now... if my whole production timing sounds correct as is... and then I decide to replace a word up front with a slightly longer one... why would I want the rest (which is already timed perfect) to move... only the phrase that the single word replacement affects. (up to the next blank).

That's precisely why I designed it the way it is... which is not a very common feature to find elsewhere. :)

It's funny... no matter how many clever things you think you are doing... someone always wants something different... there is no end to it. :D

Bob L

I know what you mean, Bob. Lots of clever stuff in SAW. But don't be surprised if others will have editing needs you never had. :) As has been mentioned numerous times, there are lots of different people working on lots of different kinds of projects. The amazing thing is that SAW can tackle so many of them so well. :D

Of course, ctrl-insert is already taken, and there would have to be a different combo. I just used it for illustrative purposes insofar as I'm a lazy b*st*rd. :p

You are correct that if the timing of everything downstream is important, then the way it works now is perfect. However, that's not the case in my example. This is not music or lip sync.

In my case the interval between the end of the word (being replaced) and the start of the next word or phrase is the important thing to keep intact so that the rhythm of the read remains natural and credible. Everything else downstream needs to keep it's timing (butts and gaps) intact, but it's timing relative to the time line is not a big deal. I typically have a second or two to play with in the overall length of a 60-second VO for example. I may aim for :58 (or so) on the total VO and then work with the open and close of the music bed or sound effects to fill the entire :60.

Am I making sense?

I mean, isn't this the kind of thing that ripple editing was 'invented' for in the first place? Necessity being the mother of invention and all... ;)

[UpTilDawn]

I know what you mean, Bob. Lots of clever stuff in SAW. But don't be surprised if others will have editing needs you never had. :) As has been mentioned numerous times, there are lots of different people working on lots of different kinds of projects. The amazing thing is that SAW can tackle so many of them so well. :D

Of course, ctrl-insert is already taken, and there would have to be a different combo. I just used it for illustrative purposes insofar as I'm a lazy b*st*rd. :p

You are correct that if the timing of everything downstream is important, then the way it works now is perfect. However, that's not the case in my example. This is not music or lip sync.

In my case the interval between the end of the word (being replaced) and the start of the next word or phrase is the important thing to keep intact so that the rhythm of the read remains natural and credible. Everything else downstream needs to keep it's timing (butts and gaps) intact, but it's timing relative to the time line is not a big deal. I typically have a second or two to play with in the overall length of a 60-second VO for example. I may aim for :58 (or so) on the total VO and then work with the open and close of the music bed or sound effects to fill the entire :60.

Am I making sense?

I mean, isn't this the kind of thing that ripple editing was 'invented' for in the first place? Necessity being the mother of invention and all... ;)

It would be the same in an instance where any track, or number of tracks, performed without the aid of a tempo grid need to be inserted into a space of unknown time quantity... while preserving the timing of the overall performance. This could easily be the case when creatively editing a live multi-track performance to replace or add a section..... something I've often done myself the long way.

DanT

[Sean McCoy]

I usually prefer to place the new region on an adjacent track when it's going to be longer, then use the end of that region as the move-to point for the rest of the EDL. I've gotten so fast at selecting to end and repositioning I don't really notice it much anymore—but a ripple option would certainly be welcome for any production where downstream timing is flexible (radio spots, music not recorded to a click, etc.), or for updating post work when conforming to a new video edit. It would be essential that orphan automation and automation on return and output tracks be included in these ripple edits, of course, just like it is with slip track.

[Dave Labrecque]

Yikes. I was thinking a single edit operation on a single track. Didn't even think to consider it for multiple tracks.