SAC on XP vs Vista

[IraSeigel]

I'm moving SAC off my older, general use XP laptop and onto a new Vista laptop. I'm finding a very frustrating problem.

I'm using a very simple setup - a CD player feeding inputs 1&2 on an Alesis AI3 AD converter. ADAT out of the Alesis is feeding ADAT In1 of a Digiface w/CardBus adapter. ADAT Out1 of the Digiface is feeding the ADAT in of the Alesis. Sync, therefore, is via ADAT. I'm feeding analog outputs 1&2 of the Alesis to 2 powered monitors.

In SAC on the XP laptop, I have all inputs and outputs assigned "by default" in the Options|Audio Device Setup. The CD plays normally.

Using the exact same hardware setup, I've transferred the CardBus adapter to my Vista laptop. I get a very distorted sound. Even when choosing Force Single CPU, Force High Priority or Force Real Time.

I discovered that if I go into Audio Device Setup and unassign either Stereo Device Out 02 (Asio-Digiface ADAT3) or Stereo Device Out 08 (Asio-Digiface ADAT15), the distortion clears up and the CD plays normally.

I've gone through the FOH mixer and all 24 monitor mixers, and I don't have ADAT3 (Stereo Device 2) assigned to anything. Furthermore, since I'm only using 1 ADAT unit, there is nothing even associated with ADAT Output 15 (it only goes 1-8).

Could someone help me with this problem? I'm new to Vista, but I don't understand why it works as expected in XP but not Vista.

I'm not set on using Vista. Should I not waste my time - or anyone else's here - and just add an XP partition or a Win7 partition? Should I completely wipe the HD (actually a SSD) and install XP SP3.

TIA,
Ira

[Bob L]

On Vista you will need to use ASIO drivers... period.....

And, you can never just transfer preferences from one machine to another... ESPECIALLY from an XP machine to a Vista one.

Clear the prefs on the Vista machine and then start SAC fresh... setup the devices from scratch using ASIO drivers. Then save new prefs.

Bob L

[IraSeigel]

On Vista you will need to use ASIO drivers... period.....

And, you can never just transfer preferences from one machine to another... ESPECIALLY from an XP machine to a Vista one.

Clear the prefs on the Vista machine and then start SAC fresh... setup the devices from scratch using ASIO drivers. Then save new prefs.

Bob L

Thanks, Bob. I've done all that. Nothing was transferred from the XP maching to the Vista machine. The Vista laptop has a new SAC install and all the "default" preferences. I've used the "default" Audio Device Setup for the Input and Output Devices, and I've disabled each one of the outputs until I found the offending patches - Output Device 2 (ADAT3) and Output Device 8 (ADAT 15). I've selected the ASIO drivers on both laptops - not WDM or anything else.

Ira

EDIT
It seems that ANYTHING patched into both Stereo Device Out 2 AND Stereo Device Out 8- i.e., using both outputs simultaneously - creates this problem. It doesn't matter WHAT is patched into each of these outputs; the situation when both outputs are assigned simultaneously is causing this problem. In Vista only - not in XP.

[phoneeko]

Be sure to disable all dsp processing (sound effects) in the "Enhancements" tab in the "properties" of your audio device in Win Vista.
"fixes" a multitude of audio related problems.

PS
Vista really is not even half as bad as people say/think it is.
Still.. If i may suggest waiting a month for Win7... been using the RC with SAC / RME for the last month without even the slightest of problems :)

[Bob L]

Ira... check your totalmix matrix view... make sure you have a straight diagonal line from left to right for all the outs... perhaps some internal routing is going on.

Bob L

[905shmick]

To reset TotalMix Mixer - hold CTRL and click the Preset 1 button.

[IraSeigel]

Yes, I'd already checked the TotalMix matrix. I even "unpatched" each connection in the matrix, to no avail.

Something very strange is going on. I'm actually not sure how much has to do with Vista and how much it has to do with SAC.

Thru TotalMix alone, the signal sounds fine. But I can have all Input Sources set to OFF and all Output Assigns set to OFF and when I engage the green LIVE mode, I hear the distorted sound. But ONLY if both Stereo Device Out 02 and 08 are assigned in the Audio Device Setup page. If either one of those is unassigned, then there is no distorted signal.

EDIT:
I've now tried disabling the Enhancements in the Control Panel|Sound. Thanks for that suggestion. No effect. I've also completely disabled the internal sound system in Device Manager. No effect.

EDIT:
I've now tried swapping out the converter to an ADA8000. No effect. I've tried using the ADAT 2 Inputs and Outputs on the Digiface. No effect.

If Stereo Device Out 02 is Not Assigned, then there's no problem.
If Stereo Device Out 02 IS Assigned, then if ANY other output device is unassigned, there's no problem.
If Stereo Device Out 02 IS Assigned and all other output devices are assigned, then I have the distortion when Live. EVEN WITH NO SOURCE OR OUTPUT ASSIGNED IN SAC. Very strange.

[905shmick]

With Windows 7 right around the corner, you might just want to skip right over Vista. I know that's what I'll be doing.

[phoneeko]

Weird indeed... only thing i would suggest is re-flashing the latest firmware on your devices, reinstall drivers (including the cardbus) and check that the cardbus is working like it should. i.e. not having any power saving crap activated ecc. (same goes for the OS, make sure it is set to High performance in power options or it will kill you CPU and make all sorts of crap happen)
Maybe even look up the shared IRQs on your machine, not sure if it really can have any impact like the one you are experiencing.

Stuff runs fine on vista if the comp is up to it... it must be a hardware/firmware/driver issue or some stupid checkbox somwhere buried in some options window..

Like others suggested thou.. Win7 is in stores in about a month. XP will do fine till then if dont want/cant use vista.

Alex.

[IraSeigel]

This thread has generated a few hits, so I'll post an update to my problem.

On a new Thinkpad with a Core2 Duo chip and Vista, I had a very strange problem: very bad noise ONLY when Stereo Device Out 08 was assigned - to anything. This problem occurred using a Digiface (CardBus) and a Fireface (Firewire), and with several different AD converters.

Exactly the same problem when I installed Win7 to a different partition and tried the same combinations of converters and interfaces.

I couldn't install XP Pro on a 3rd partition because Windows only allows you to install newer versions, not older versions, of the OS. I didn't want to completely reformat the new drive and lose all the IBM utilities, so I sent the Thinkpad back to IBM/Lenovo - one day turnaround!! - and asked them to install XP Pro on it. (Now I can install Win7 if I want to.)

Now I am able to do a valid apples-to-apples test between my old system and the new system, because they're both running the same OS, along with the same converters and interfaces.

Using XP Pro on the new laptop, I have absolutely no strange noises when Stereo Device Out 08 is assigned.

So, with hardware, RME drivers and OS being the same on 2 different machines, the only conclusion that I can come up with is that something in both Vista and Win7 was causing the problem.

Can anyone spot a flaw in my logic or troubleshooting procedure?

I'd be very interested - and I'm sure it would be useful info for others - if anyone could corroborate these findings.

Again, the only problem I found was when Stereo Device Out 08 was assigned.

In addition to XP Pro solving this problem (I think), I also notice that I'm able to get lower latencies with less CPU load and no clicks. Also, in both Vista and Win7, if I didn't have both "Force Single CPU" and "Force RealTime Priority Class" checked, the clicks and pops were unbearable and buffers were slipping a rate of approx 1/sec. With exactly the same setup in XP Pro, I can leave "RealTime Priority" unchecked with no effect on the audio, and if I don't check "Force Single CPU", I get slipped buffers but at a MUCH slower rate, but still no clicks.

Don't know if this will help anyone in their decision to use Win7. I really wanted it to work - Win7 boots up VERY quickly and "feels" fast - but for audio work, I'm definitely going to stick with SAC on XP Pro.

Thanks,
Ira

[Leadfoot]

That sucks, I was hoping win7 would be good for audio. Looks like (probably) once again Microsoft doesn't care about us. I hope this doesn't turn out to be the case in the long run. Sorry I'm of no help, I've tested win7 but not on my audio computer, cause it resides in a rack blah blah..
But now that you mention this, I will try to test my hdsp9652 on win7 with sac & saw when I get a chance.

edit;
I just noticed you said cardbus and/or firewire, so my findings may not be relevant(pci), also the fact that it's a laptop, but I'm curious now as well.

Tony

[Bob L]

I was just told that Win 7 is built on the Vista core engine... don't know how true that is... but... if that is the case.... OH WELL!!!!!!! :(

Bob L

[IraSeigel]

I was just told that Win 7 is built on the Vista core engine... don't know how true that is... but... if that is the case.... OH WELL!!!!!!! :(

Bob L

It is, but with "refinements". They've said it is what Vista should have been. And that's probably why the problem occurred in both OSs. VERY strange, but I'm glad I'm bacl up and running with XP Pro on this new laptop. I'm also glad to know that it wasn't something wrong with my PC Card port, because both my Digiface interface and Fireface interface use the port

[dbarrow]

I was just told that Win 7 is built on the Vista core engine... don't know how true that is... but... if that is the case.... OH WELL!!!!!!! :(

Bob L
Maybe it's time for a linux port of SAC...

There would probably be even less overhead crap.

[Bob L]

Or a lot more... there are no two Linux installs the same in the world I will bet. :)

Bob L

[dbarrow]

Perhaps it could be some kind of integrated install. You could just install the whole thing, linux and all. I know they have various installs tha just run off a CD. Sorry, I'm just blowing smoke. Perhaps Microsoft could just make a solid OS and quit trying to pamper the user with lots of useless fluff.

[905shmick]

Or a lot more... there are no two Linux installs the same in the world I will bet. :)

Bob L

I've been using linux heavily since 1995 and it's come a long way. The days of having to spend a lot of time to customize things are quickly becoming a thing of the past. Even now, I install Ubuntu Server and choose a very generic / default install. All I'm really left to do is give it a name and IP address and I'm done.

Ubuntu Studio (http://ubuntustudio.org/) would be an ideal distribution for SAC.

[dbarrow]

Funny, I have Ubuntu as well.

[gdougherty]

I've been using linux heavily since 1995 and it's come a long way. The days of having to spend a lot of time to customize things are quickly becoming a thing of the past. Even now, I install Ubuntu Server and choose a very generic / default install. All I'm really left to do is give it a name and IP address and I'm done.

Ubuntu Studio (http://ubuntustudio.org/) would be an ideal distribution for SAC.


How well do the VST plugins work on Linux?

[dbarrow]

How well do the VST plugins work on Linux?
Oops...

[905shmick]

Oops...

I haven't tried this but it looks like it might work - http://www.breakfastquay.com/dssi-vst/

[Bob L]

How bout we stop this conversation right here! :)

Bob L

[905shmick]

C'mon Bob, embrace the future. Where have I heard that before? :rolleyes:

[wascomat]

Are you still getting the distortion?

Sounds similar to what I had on a vista machine. In my case I found an audio 'add-on' program lurking in my system. I had installed a demo of software called "the thing" (I think it was Antares software) and completely forgotten about it. (i believe it installs a stand-alone version along with a vst)

It was installed using ports 3-4 as stereo audio. Anytime I used ports 3/4 as an audio playback for anything else, I would have distorted audio. I had also installed it on an XP PRO machine that didn't suffer from this same anomaly.

Apparently, Vista is a little possessive of it's assignments and remembers them even if you forget. I hadn't used that demo for a long time and didn't see any conflicts in the audio panel when viewing it from the control panel access. I also had assigned ports 1/2 to use with Windows media player and quickly found that one causing some distorted audio but this one only happened when using the player to play cd's through the system but did not distort the audio from ports 1/2 on the SAC console.

So it looks like some programs are not set to give back their resources when not being used where others grab 'em and keep 'em. (in Vista)
Vista also makes it a little harder to find these rogue assignments with all of it's hiding places, etc

Take a look in the audio section of the classic view of the control panel for the most common assignments. I found the Antares software in the device drivers section of the hardware devices (but didn't show up in the audio section of the control panel) and un-installed it with the add-delete programs section of the control panel which solved a long running problem of not being able to use ports 3/4.

Maybe a different condition here but thought I would mention it.

- Jim

*** my green check engine light still keeps lighting up and I keep right clicking it to shut it off... maybe someday my audio will stay on ****
(no one seems to appreciate my odd sense of humor)

[IraSeigel]

Are you still getting the distortion?

Sounds similar to what I had on a vista machine. In my case I found an audio 'add-on' program lurking in my system. ...

It was installed using ports 3-4 as stereo audio. Anytime I used ports 3/4 as an audio playback for anything else, I would have distorted audio. I had also installed it on an XP PRO machine that didn't suffer from this same anomaly.

...

Hi Jim,
Thanks for this post. Very interesting. I am sure that I did all of Bob's XP tweaks when I was trying both Vista and Win7 (see a post I made on that topic). One of the tweaks involved disabling all Windows sounds.

However, I don't remember if I actually disabled the internal sound card - in the case of this new Thinkpad, a Conexant card - either via Windows or in the BIOS. That's a good question. But I didn't install any programs or such as you described - this was a completely new laptop and the only thing I installed was OpenOffice and SAC.

I will install Win7 on a new partition and try again.

BTW, the partitioning software I've tried, a free one called EASEUS, is excellent. I don't know how it compares with retail software, but it's full-featured enough for what I need. And I've tried and like Macrium, a freeware for backing up your drive before partitioning or for regular backups. The only problem with Macrium is that it doesn't tell you how big the backup file is going to be, so you don't know if you need, for example, a DVD or an external HD.

And to answer your original question -- no, no more noise problems with this Thinkpad using XP Pro instead of Win7 or Vista Business.

Ira

[gdougherty]

I haven't tried this but it looks like it might work - http://www.breakfastquay.com/dssi-vst/


Um, No

VST "chunks" are not supported. This means that many plugins are unable to save and restore presets and other data.
Graphical elements in the plugin GUI that are intended to respond to audio input may be inactive.

[MikeDee]

C'mon Bob, embrace the future. Where have I heard that before? :rolleyes:

Dare I say, "Resistance is Futile," Bob??? :D:D:D

Hee hee...just havin' fun...I'm not on Linux just yet. :p

[RBIngraham]

Hi Jim,
Thanks for this post. Very interesting. I am sure that I did all of Bob's XP tweaks when I was trying both Vista and Win7 (see a post I made on that topic). One of the tweaks involved disabling all Windows sounds.

However, I don't remember if I actually disabled the internal sound card - in the case of this new Thinkpad, a Conexant card - either via Windows or in the BIOS. That's a good question. But I didn't install any programs or such as you described - this was a completely new laptop and the only thing I installed was OpenOffice and SAC.

I will install Win7 on a new partition and try again.

BTW, the partitioning software I've tried, a free one called EASEUS, is excellent. I don't know how it compares with retail software, but it's full-featured enough for what I need. And I've tried and like Macrium, a freeware for backing up your drive before partitioning or for regular backups. The only problem with Macrium is that it doesn't tell you how big the backup file is going to be, so you don't know if you need, for example, a DVD or an external HD.

And to answer your original question -- no, no more noise problems with this Thinkpad using XP Pro instead of Win7 or Vista Business.

Ira

Well please keep us posted Ira. I would be interested to know what RME had to say about the issue. Did you ever try and contact them? I've forgotten now, did this problem only occur in SAC or any audio application?

[IraSeigel]

Well please keep us posted Ira. I would be interested to know what RME had to say about the issue. Did you ever try and contact them? I've forgotten now, did this problem only occur in SAC or any audio application?

Hi Richard,
Unfortunately, I only installed SAC and encountered the problem. I didn't try with any other software. I guess I should have. But I'm trying to prep for a tour, and so I was very specific about my needs and my timetable for getting it all together. Admittedly, a more thorough test would have been more helpful. But I wanted to compare apples-to-apples. In my case, I needed to eliminate as many variables as possible, only leaving the change in laptop as the possible culprit. Once I was able to get XP Pro on the new computer and verify that everything worked as it did on the old computer, the only variable left was the OS.

I have not read anything on the RME site that indicates users are having any issues with Win7. And Matthias hinted last week that a new Fireface (FW) driver is in the works. Perhaps they are addressing specific Win7 issues? FW800 issues? I'm eager to see what they come out with.

Regards,
Ira

[RBIngraham]

Hi Richard,
Unfortunately, I only installed SAC and encountered the problem. I didn't try with any other software. I guess I should have. But I'm trying to prep for a tour, and so I was very specific about my needs and my timetable for getting it all together. Admittedly, a more thorough test would have been more helpful. But I wanted to compare apples-to-apples. In my case, I needed to eliminate as many variables as possible, only leaving the change in laptop as the possible culprit. Once I was able to get XP Pro on the new computer and verify that everything worked as it did on the old computer, the only variable left was the OS.

I have not read anything on the RME site that indicates users are having any issues with Win7. And Matthias hinted last week that a new Fireface (FW) driver is in the works. Perhaps they are addressing specific Win7 issues? FW800 issues? I'm eager to see what they come out with.

Regards,
Ira

I totally understand the need to just "get it done and working". I guess my point is that we shouldn't automatically assume there is something wrong with Vista or Win 7 based on that amount of testing. Only that with your sound cards and SAC, that there seems to be a problem, which obviously would heavily effect the members that read this forum. :)

The issues could just as well be in SAC itself (sorry Bob, no offense), or in the RME drivers. Since no other software was tested out and no other sound cards, that leaves open a lot of possibilities as to who the "culprit" really is.

I tested out SAC on my one Vista System with Firewire cards from Echo and didn't have any issues like that, but it was far from a thorough test and I wouldn't say it's good to go based on that amount of testing. However I would say that I have that same machine running playback in my most recent show (software other than SAC) and it has worked just fine. So there is nothing fundamentally wrong with Vista that precludes it's use in live performance situations. Now maybe it means we don't get to use it for SAC, but then in my book that is a SAC issue, not something wrong with Vista or Win 7. Or it's an RME driver issue. Obviously further more comprehensive testing is needed to really draw any fundamental conclusions.

[Bob L]

The concerns with Vista was with low latency live thru performance... not just playback... playback of audio can happen all day at 2 secs of latency and it would not necessarily matter... live input monitoring at 1.5 ms is another story... and YES... it is a Vista issue and not necessarily the apps problem.

Bob L

[IraSeigel]

I totally understand the need to just "get it done and working". I guess my point is that we shouldn't automatically assume there is something wrong with Vista or Win 7 based on that amount of testing. Only that with your sound cards and SAC, that there seems to be a problem, which obviously would heavily effect the members that read this forum. :)

....

Hi Richard,
Yes, I totally agree. That's why I asked if anyone using Vista or Win7 could corroborate my results.

Jim's (Wascomat's) posting earlier in this thread leads me to believe that if I had completely disabled my internal sound card - either in Device Manager or BIOS - my results MIGHT have been different. My uneducated guess is that perhaps the internal Conexant sound card was using a resource that SAC needed for Stereo Device Out 08.

I can pretty much eliminate the RME drivers as an issue. The problem happened with both a Digiface and a Fireface, both of which work just fine in XP Pro. The drivers are the same for both XP Pro and Vista/Win7.

I'll do a new partition and fresh install of Win7 RC and test again.

Regards,
Ira

[RBIngraham]

The concerns with Vista was with low latency live thru performance... not just playback... playback of audio can happen all day at 2 secs of latency and it would not necessarily matter... live input monitoring at 1.5 ms is another story... and YES... it is a Vista issue and not necessarily the apps problem.

Bob L

Hmmmm... maybe but SFX software from Stage Research, who I work for part time, can also route live audio, as well as do playback, and we run just fine in Vista, in fact that is OS that is on the developers machine. Granted, it's not doing anything nearly as slick as SAC, just input to outputs, more of a matrix router than a mixing console. But we can do low latency just fine in Vista. So... sorry it's not totally a Vista problem that can just be written off.

What they are doing to make it happen, I have no idea... I'm not a code writer. Just an end user, product development consultant, trainer, and manual writer.

Sorry Bob, eventually some day down the road we'll just have to move on from Win XP. That day may be a ways off yet, but it will eventually happen. M$ is like the Borg, for better or worse. The longer we drag feet, that harder the transition will be. At least in my opinion. :)

[RBIngraham]

The concerns with Vista was with low latency live thru performance... not just playback... playback of audio can happen all day at 2 secs of latency and it would not necessarily matter... live input monitoring at 1.5 ms is another story... and YES... it is a Vista issue and not necessarily the apps problem.

Bob L

I should also add that if there was 2 seconds of latency in the Stage Research products, no one would be using it. Sure playback doesn't need to be run at 1.5ms like live audio routing, but good sound ops and designers expect to hear audio as soon as they push "GO". :)

[Bob L]

Lets just say that there is an awful lot of background kludge in Vista that is not in XP and therefore it gets tougher to attain the same level of performance... I did not say it was impossible... but certainly not an optimum choice for live audio/video streaming performance.

Bob L

[Iain Westland]

one day linux will rule, oh how I wish you could post SAW/SAC over to it

till then, XP till they update the hardware as MAC did

iain

[RBIngraham]

Lets just say that there is an awful lot of background kludge in Vista that is not in XP and therefore it gets tougher to attain the same level of performance... I did not say it was impossible... but certainly not an optimum choice for live audio/video streaming performance.

Bob L

Fair enough.

So just curious then. What is your longer range plan Bob? Stick with XP until it's totally dead and there is no hardware that runs on it, or just move to Win 7 and try and make that work?

I'm asking only from a curiosity perspective as someone who works for a developer of software. Not trying to put you on the spot. My boss tends to jump on the latest OS bandwagon fairly quickly. Faster that I personally would move if I didn't work for them. So I'm just interested in the opinion of someone else.

[Bob L]

I will continue to do what I have always done... stick to and recommend what works until forced to make the new stuff work... we always do find a way around the kludge... it just takes time. :)

Bob L

[wascomat]

Definitely not a Vista issue.

(I can hear the screams coming now):eek:
I have successfully ran an entire show with SAC and Vista including sidebar up and running (updating via internet) Antivirus (Kaspersky) up and running. All the bells and whistles of eye candy 'on' (Aero page flip active), Networking active through a mobile router with TCP remotes and an Sprint air card plugged into the router linked to Sprint Mobile (internet active), tons of VST and VSTi's plugged in including MOTU Machfive, Kontakt 3, Chris Hein Horns, Samplemodeling Mr. Sax T and 'The Trumpet' with additional instances of Kontakt 3 running the SampleModeling Alto and Baritone Sax all controlled with an AKAI EWI 4000s midi through a MOTU MidiTimepiece. Now add 32 active audio channels with a couple of MOTU 24i's, each using several plugs/compressors/reverbs/gates/etc.,a BBE sonic max on every channel a Mackie Control Universal and 8 in-ear mixes (stereo) and lots more resident programs, etc
...and with SawStudio recording everything at the same time- live.

It isn't a screaming system with just a 2.8 quad processor. (non overclocked)
No glitches. No slipped buffers.

I normally take action to prevent the non-needed programs from running in case they would take valuable processor time away from the audio engines but there was an incident where I had to get up and running rather quickly and didn't have time to stop all the services that I normally would stop, change my startup programs, turn off the sidebar, reboot and start the show. I had to 'wing it' with the computer already running all this stuff due to lack of time. I was waiting for some slipping or distortion especially when I could see Kaspersky updating it's virus files... didn't happen. It was a scary event but the shocking thing was that the sidebar cpu meters didn't change as much as I though they would with all of the other stuff turned off/on.

Since then I have done several events with various combinations of resident programs/ internet still connected/ other programs running in the background/ etc mainly because I have forgotten to check or I needed a program for something else during the event and left it running.

Lucky? probably... but I just wanted to tell you that Vista allowed me to run a system like this without a problem. I give lots of credit to Bob's hard work with the assembly programming which takes the load off of the CPU.
Previously with Nuendo running a live show (yes I must be crazy) I was very limited to tracks/plugs etc and couldn't hit the record button without a disaster and it required a reboot due to crash/lockup occasionally.

-Jim

[Naturally Digital]

Lets just say that there is an awful lot of background kludge in Vista that is not in XP The multicore processors take care of that. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, my quad core machine does a better job of multitasking than any machine I've owned (and I've been using dual processor machines for almost 10 years).

[gdougherty]

one day linux will rule, oh how I wish you could post SAW/SAC over to it

till then, XP till they update the hardware as MAC did

iain

At this point, Mac would seem to be the better choice. There is far better VST support on the Mac than on Linux and that's part of the appeal of SAC, that you're able to use all kinds of plugins. I'm not at all a fan of Apple in general, except for my iPhone interface, but they're the second most popular OS for desktops at the moment and getting a good chunk of attention from the Audio community.

[RBIngraham]

At this point, Mac would seem to be the better choice. There is far better VST support on the Mac than on Linux and that's part of the appeal of SAC, that you're able to use all kinds of plugins. I'm not at all a fan of Apple in general, except for my iPhone interface, but they're the second most popular OS for desktops at the moment and getting a good chunk of attention from the Audio community.

Actually most plug-ins that run on the Mac are in AU format these days, VST is less and less popular on the Mac platform.

[gdougherty]

Definitely not a Vista issue.

I normally take action to prevent the non-needed programs from running in case they would take valuable processor time away from the audio engines but there was an incident where I had to get up and running rather quickly and didn't have time to stop all the services that I normally would stop, change my startup programs, turn off the sidebar, reboot and start the show. I had to 'wing it' with the computer already running all this stuff due to lack of time. I was waiting for some slipping or distortion especially when I could see Kaspersky updating it's virus files... didn't happen. It was a scary event but the shocking thing was that the sidebar cpu meters didn't change as much as I though they would with all of the other stuff turned off/on.

Since then I have done several events with various combinations of resident programs/ internet still connected/ other programs running in the background/ etc mainly because I have forgotten to check or I needed a program for something else during the event and left it running.

-Jim

May be worth doing what I did, carve out a partition and install a parallel copy of the OS on that. SAC requires no reinstall, just link to the program directory on the other partition, same for SAW and the Remote. Leave that instance cut down to just what you'd typically need and add any necessary apps. Windows should automatically setup the dual boot and you can then edit your boot.ini file to make the instances more user friendly. I have XP Mixing and XP personal available on my laptop.

[DaveS]

You could also setup multiple hardware profiles and select them at bootup time. I finally got my rather troublesome MSI laptop under control by doing this. I setup two hardware profiles - Live mode and Normal mode. I made sure that Live mode was the first one so when the computer boots it will use that hardware profile with no interaction. If I need the computer for something else that requires features that I have turned off, when I boot I select the second profile. The only drawback to this seems to be a excessive amount of time to actually boot up....but I'm usually doing other things anyways.

[gdougherty]

You could also setup multiple hardware profiles and select them at bootup time. I finally got my rather troublesome MSI laptop under control by doing this. I setup two hardware profiles - Live mode and Normal mode. I made sure that Live mode was the first one so when the computer boots it will use that hardware profile with no interaction. If I need the computer for something else that requires features that I have turned off, when I boot I select the second profile. The only drawback to this seems to be a excessive amount of time to actually boot up....but I'm usually doing other things anyways.

The nice thing about parallel installs is that it takes care of hardware, startup apps, and services. The mixing instance also starts very quickly for me since the personal instance connects to my domain at home as well as doing all the rest so there's no domain to connect to.

[gdougherty]

Actually most plug-ins that run on the Mac are in AU format these days, VST is less and less popular on the Mac platform.
You can still find plenty of VST plugs for the Mac and there's an alternate standard that exists and is popular on the platform. Expand to support AU plugs and you've got a bunch of additional software available.
Port to Linux and you've got lots of what available? It may be a great OS, but until it becomes truly mainstream with the audio industry, it's just a niche product with a handful of nice apps and a bunch of open source WIP's that work somewhat as well as the commercial products they're immitating.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an open source fan. I use Gimp, Open Office 3.11 and several other smaller projects like, PING, FileZilla and PDF Creator on a regular basis. Gimp is no Photoshop, Draw is no Illustrator and OO.o gets away with buggy behavior, at times, that would sink Microsoft Office mostly because it's free. Open Source seems to provide better results on small projects without complex requirements in most cases. There's a lot to be said for commercial products that have to justify their purchase cost.

[DaveS]

The nice thing about parallel installs is that it takes care of hardware, startup apps, and services.

I think you can do this with Hardware profiles too - including services... - not sure about the actual apps - I thought you could though.

[IraSeigel]

I thought I'd return to this thread one more time to post my final findings.

I am now able to have XP SP3 on a partition and Win7 RC on another partition. Using exactly the same hardware setup - Digiface/Cardbus and Alesis AI3 with CD player input - I've found that:

With XP, CPU load is 15%, no dropped buffers at 4x32 with 18 inputs and 6 mix outputs open, using RML Reverb, JMS Freeverb, and some other things. Sounds good.

With Win7 RC, CPU load is 50%, dropping about 10 buffers/second (estimate) and my Stereo Device Out 08 must be unassigned, or else I get horrible noise (see my earlier posts in this thread regarding this issue).

So, unfortunately, I'm deleting the Win7 partition and sticking with XP for SAC. Too bad - I want to like Win7. It boots VERY quickly and "feels' fast. But it's unusable for me, at least on this T500 Thinkpad with SAC.

Ira