October 2018 - Least Expensive Laptop Capable of Running SAW Basic?

I haven't seen anything new on this forum in a while, so I figured this quiet stretch might be a good time to ask one of my silly questions. Actually, now that I think about it, I have TWO.

1. I'm thinking about investing less than $500 in a laptop. I don't want to spend more than that because every single laptop I have owned in my life either burns itself out or becomes obsolete before I have gotten my investment's-worth out of it. This will be solely for working on small productions during my lunch hour at work.

These productions are telephone "message-on-hold" programs that involve four or five tracks (at the most) of voice-overs and music, all of which are pre-recorded in "real" studios. I simply need to edit voice-over tracks, then pop them into Multi-Track View and mix them with music. Although my productions are a bit more "involved" than the typical M-O-H recordings you hear on business phone systems, they don't involve a whole lot of resources from the computer. Heck, I did them the same way with SAWse and Windows 95, or 97, back in the old days.

So how little laptop power can I invest in to be able to run SAW BASIC without wanting to tear my hair out from lag or some other deficit? Is $500 realistic?

2. (BONUS QUESTION) In all the time I've used Basic, I haven't figured out how to completely wipe all regions on one track with a single keystroke. Instead, I've been deleting each region individually until all are gone. This takes too long and involves having to zoom in and out too much just to make sure all the regions are gone. You guys always seem to have the answers to these puzzles. Does anyone have a heart to share the answer to this one?

Thank you all!

Hello,

Find yourself a reputable, used computer dealer and find a used Lenovo/ThinkPad or Dell system with Windows 7.

I recently obtained a Lenovo T540p with SSD and spinner for $400.00 and it is just great!

As with Dell, Lenovo Thinkpads have been great for me, too. A local computer liquidator sold me two different refurbished ones over the course of a few years for less than 300.00 each, with Windows 7 pro 32 bit. I still use them both - an x60 and an x61.

2 - not a single keystroke, but pretty slick - blacken the channel number for your chosen track, hit Shift/End and then Delete. Removes all regions and automation, including any orphaned automation at once. Blacken multiple channels for the same result on simultaneous tracks at once. At least that's how it works in Lite and Full.

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Originally Posted by UpTilDawn

2 - not a single keystroke, but pretty slick - blacken the channel number for your chosen track, hit Shift/End and then Delete. Removes all regions and automation, including any orphaned automation at once. Blacken multiple channels for the same result on simultaneous tracks at once. At least that's how it works in Lite and Full.

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And it worked for me in Basic! Thank you!

I also can't figure out how to delete a region between two other regions and make the two surrounding regions automatically snap together. (Wanna give that one a try?)

I know you may think I'm just too lazy to learn these things on my own, but keep in mind that I only use SAW about once a month. At 55, my brain isn't anywhere near as sharp as it was when I was 35. Instead of taking hours to learn all these tricks, I'm spending a few extra minutes each session doing things the long way.

Regarding the laptop, it looks like the Lenovo is the one with all the love?

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Originally Posted by Tom M

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I also can't figure out how to delete a region between two other regions and make the two surrounding regions automatically snap together. (Wanna give that one a try?) ...

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This depends on whether or not the regions in question are back-to-back... with literally no space between region boundaries.

If a region is simply cut up into 3 segments, for instance, and you want the middle segment removed and the last butted up against the first, then your best bet might be to, instead, use the K key to make the first cut up front and use the D key to make the second cut down the timeline - this forces the third segment to move forward and butt up against the first - but only if you use the D key instead of the K key on that second edit.

If you should make the first cut down the timeline and then want to remove the middle segment with the second cut earlier on the timeline, use Alt/D to remove (what would be) the middle segment and move the third forward to butt up against the first segment.

Offhand, I can't think of how you might push the first segment down the timeline to butt up against the third segment - there might be a way to do it in one or two steps, but I can't think of it at the moment. At any rate, moving it that way after the middle segment has been removed is simple - and there are numerous ways.

And as with so many edits made in SAW, most of this can be accomplished across multiple tracks simultaneously by blackening the track/channel numbers you want to include in the operation. Be forewarned though, that if the regions in each track are not identically distributed, you can and often will get very unexpected results. In those cases an alternate strategy would need to be employed - again, many possibilities there.

By the way - personally, I think working in a software DAW makes me sharper over time. I think I'm less dense today than 10 years ago, thanks to the constant effort to understand and overcome computerthink. Keeps me on my toes. :)

Tom,

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Regarding the laptop, it looks like the Lenovo is the one with all the love?

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...Dell is also a good unit to consider.

What I believe to be very important is the video. I prefer not to use NVidia, so stay with the integrated Intel or ATI.

What I like about the business-class Lenovo's is, in most cases, the ability to turn off a lot of the integrated hardware. Business-class Dell's comes in as a close second here.

Hmmm, the Alt/D move did not work for me. It did the same thing that just hitting "D" would do.

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Originally Posted by UpTilDawn

2 - not a single keystroke, but pretty slick - blacken the channel number for your chosen track, hit Shift/End and then Delete. Removes all regions and automation, including any orphaned automation at once. Blacken multiple channels for the same result on simultaneous tracks at once. At least that's how it works in Lite and Full.

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Never knew about this! But I've refined it: for a single track you don't have to blacken the track number. You DO, however, have to be sure the track of interest is the Hottrack and that the playback cursor is before the first region and automation entries for the track, though -- preferably at the start of the track (The easiest thing to do. Drag it there, click the space on the interface just before there, or hit the Home key).

Also: the orphan automation entries (not within region entry boundaries) will NOT be deleted unless you are in Automation Mode. And in that case, any region entries won't be deleted. So, alas, this is approach is not perfect; you would need to do it in two steps to be sure everything is gone -- once in Normal Mode, once in Automation Mode.

But wait! Even then it's not perfect: shift-End only marks the track through the end of the last region entry in the session (among all tracks); if there's orphan automation beyond there, it's out of reach of the marked range! Another good reason to NEVER allow orphan automation to exist. Put it on a blank region, if you have to have it.

That said, the best I can think of to cover all your bases is:

1) do what UpTilDawn said
2) enter Automation Mode and extend the marked range past any remaining automation (by dragging in the Time Line or ctrl-Tabbing to the final automation entry and hitting the E key)
3) hit Delete

A couple keystrokes you may find handy, Tom: Tab and shift-Tab to move between region entry boundaries, alt-left-arrow and alt-right-arrow to move between SoftEdge outer extremes, and ctrl-Tab and shift-ctrl-Tab to move between automation entries (works in automation mode and automation "peek" mode (right-click the WAV view button when in Normal Mode to enter "peek" mode)).

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Originally Posted by Tom M

Hmmm, the Alt/D move did not work for me. It did the same thing that just hitting "D" would do.

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Attachment 2837

Actually, the above descriptions are incomplete. For any region entry, D removes audio data that's left of the cursor, then moves the data that's right of the cursor (and any following butt-spliced region entries) back to where the region entry started originally. Alt-D removes audio data to the right of the cursor and moves any following butt-spliced region entries to where the cursor is. I use these a lot in voice-over editing.

A handy tip that, probably, no one uses but me: for VO editing I take my left hand and place three fingers on three keys: index finger on K, middle finger on U, pinky on D. They fall there pretty naturally. Makes editing go pretty fast without having to look down at the keyboard.

RE: removing the middle region and butting the remaining two

I don't think UTD covered this: if all three are butt-spliced together, placing the cursor over the middle region entry (or, in Select Mode, selecting it) and hitting shift-Delete will remove the middle one and move the last one (and any following, butt-spliced regions) back up against the end of the first one.

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Originally Posted by Dave Labrecque

Attachment 2837

...I don't think UTD covered this: if all three are butt-spliced together, placing the cursor over the middle region entry (or, in Select Mode, selecting it) and hitting shift-Delete will remove the middle one and move the last one (and any following, butt-spliced regions) back up against the end of the first one.

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Aah - that's a good one to remember!

Thanks for clarifying. The pic also helps a lot.

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Originally Posted by Tom M

Hmmm, the Alt/D move did not work for me. It did the same thing that just hitting "D" would do.

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If you mean that it removed the middle segment and pulled the last one forward, then yes... that was the intention.

What it doesn't do is to remove the middle and push the first segment back to meet the third. That is what I mentioned as well... still can't think of an easy way to do that.

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Originally Posted by UpTilDawn

What it doesn't do is to remove the middle and push the first segment back to meet the third. That is what I mentioned as well... still can't think of an easy way to do that.

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FWIW -- I don't think there are any one-stroke edit operations that move data forward in time. Plenty that move it backward in time, though. It seems consistent with the intent of building a project forward -- from start to finish -- from left to right.

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Originally Posted by UpTilDawn

If you mean that it removed the middle segment and pulled the last one forward, then yes... that was the intention.

What it doesn't do is to remove the middle and push the first segment back to meet the third. That is what I mentioned as well... still can't think of an easy way to do that.

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Alt/D did not remove the middle and pull the last one forward. All it did was delete everything to the left of the cursor point, just as "D," alone, would have done.

So, I have segment 1, segment 2, and segment 3. My cursor was in the middle of segment 2. I pressed Alt/D and segment 2 just got chopped in half, right where my cursor was. I want segment 2 to be completely deleted, and I want segment 3 to move forward and splice itself to segment 1.

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Originally Posted by Tom M

Alt/D did not remove the middle and pull the last one forward. All it did was delete everything to the left of the cursor point, just as "D," alone, would have done.

So, I have segment 1, segment 2, and segment 3. My cursor was in the middle of segment 2. I pressed Alt/D and segment 2 just got chopped in half, right where my cursor was. I want segment 2 to be completely deleted, and I want segment 3 to move forward and splice itself to segment 1.

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Just as you use D as an alternate choice for K, when making the second cut -
so too do you use Alt/D as an alternate choice for the second cut.
The difference being whether the first cut is before the second (use D for the second), or the first cut was made after where you want to make a second cut (use Alt/D for the second cut).

If you have already made two cuts, creating three segments, then you are correct that pressing Alt/D will not do what I said it should do.

Hello,

I obtained the Lenovo T540p and I must say..."What a great laptop!"

The one I obtained is in mint condition along with an ADAT 480GB SSD.

Initial tests with the UMC404HD are very good..but will be doing further testing over the next few days.

I definitely do not want a used or refurbished computer of ANY kind. Some people have a lot of luck with them. I have enough trouble with NEW computers!

Tom,

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I definitely do not want a used or refurbished computer of ANY kind. Some people have a lot of luck with them. I have enoughtrouble with NEW computers!

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...Tom, in all honesty, you must be doing something WRONG?

First, do you understand that, in most cases, these used units are corporate-grade units, and not consumer-grade systems?

Second, I have been selling such systems since I began my own computer consulting business back in 1999...so this is 19 years of history. Most of these units have been sold to client's that are what I refer to as "heavy users"...and, for whatever reason, these units have NOT given them any trouble whatsoever.
* Note, I just checked by sales history, and in the last three years I have sold over 350 used laptops, with one failure - which was the result of a bad screen. A change-out of the defective screen and the unit went back into service.

You simply cannot go wrong with any of the used IBM ThinkPad's or Dell Latitudes. Even some of the HP Elite systems are very good as well.

I will tell you this, Tom, if you were to by a used laptop from me, I will "stick my neck out" and guarantee that one of my used laptops will not give you any trouble whatsoever.
* As long I know what the unit is going to be used for, and what software and hardware is going to be used on that system, I will make this offer to you.
* Also, both SAC and SAW have been used on very "light" systems in the past, and perform very well on such systems.

The point is this, find yourself a reputable used computer dealer. If you are unable to locate one, the fellow that I have dealt with for over 10 years now, has an eBay store, so you could obtain a unit from him.

I hope this information will set your mind at ease a bit.

I have to agree whole heartedly with Dell on this one - 8 of the last computer I bought (2 laptops and 6 desktops) were all used - at least 5-6 years old when I got them - and all have run great for anywhere from 6 months ago to almost 10 years ago now. I found them all in the local area and from a reputable liquidator, who refurbishes computers. All mine have been business/corporate type as well.

Both laptops have been Thinkpads, as I mentioned before and the desktops have been standard office HPs and Dells... and all were bought cheaply enough to have plenty of room in the budget to max out RAM and upgrade power supplies and other peripherals, where needed - and all without breaking the bank.

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Originally Posted by Tom M

I definitely do not want a used or refurbished computer of ANY kind. Some people have a lot of luck with them. I have enough trouble with NEW computers!

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I have bought used computers that worked perfectly, and at least one is still in service. I have also had used comps that went bad. My last studio computer upgrade, I went through several different NAME BRAND new machines, none of which were workable for my need, some with immediate hardware failures, and finally built from scratch (what I did for most of my studio machines over the years). That scratch computer was EXPENSIVE. I recently bought a used machine for five dollars that probably could have done the job, and am keeping it as a spare.

I will say that I am less confident with used laptops than with used desktop machines. Laptops tend to get beat up more, from what I've seen.

I have bought three used Thinkpads and one used Dell Latitude with excellent results using SAW and SAC. Not an issue whatsoever. I paid $150 each for the Thinkpads and $300 for the (newer) Dell. I've repurposed two of the Thinkpads and I use the Dell only for remote recording, but they all worked perfectly in the role of SAW machines.

I have bought and refurbished probably 35-40 Lenovo laptops generally W500/ W700 for resale to "studios"/ bedroom recorders / etc.
I just sold one last week with a Focusrite Saffire Pro 10 for $300 total. Most of the ones I've sold have 250-500 G SSD's with 8 G DDR3 ram.
They will do just about anything you need done. I still use a W500 in my 16 channel live/recording rig. Find a reputable computer guy and
upgrade a Lenovo. Shopgoodwill.com (darn I gave away my secret place) has Lenovos all the time. I require firewire on a laptop so this is why I
choose Lenovo. Later ones without firewire are still rock solid with a USB interface.
S. Lewis
Mountain View Recording
Audio-Video Electronics
Richmond, KY

I hope none of you who resell computers will take this personally, but although you had me thinking "used" for a bit, I've come around to deciding I still want something new. I'm just too tired of fighting with computers that are buggy or become obsolete a few weeks after I buy them. So far, I have hated my Windows 10 experience, but new is still new and I'd rather spend my time getting my work done than Googling for solutions to problems with an operating system that Windows will soon decide to abandon.

Being that you've pretty much convinced me that Lenovo's ThinkPad is the way to go, can anybody suggest a current model that will run SAW Basic well - with only 4-5 tracks in use at any given time and very little recording done right into the software?

(Again, I appreciate the advice about used laptops, but please do not try to convince me any more!)

Hello,

Have a look at the Lenovo "E Series"

Certainly a good place to start - though I would consider the "P Series".

Also, as you state, "with only 4-5 tracks in use at any given time"...what, and how many plug-ins are being used at any given time?

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Originally Posted by mr_es335

...Also, as you state, "with only 4-5 tracks in use at any given time"...what, and how many plug-ins are being used at any given time?

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Zero! I am primarily mixing pre-recorded voiceovers with pre-recorded music. Any effects on the voices are added before or after, using other software.

OK, I'm back...after getting the heck beaten out of me by the prices on those new Lenovos once I upgraded the hard drive, etc.

I guess I got a little over-zealous there. Realistically, buying a laptop to do mixes on SAW Basic during my lunch hour is only practical if I can get one for $500 or less. Otherwise, I might as well just keep using the Dell Inspiron desktop machine I already have.

Back to the drawing board...

Tom,

What is wrong with the ThinkPad E585 AMD?

Stock: $420.00
Processor: AMD Ryzen dual-core, 2.50GHz
Operating System: Windows 10 Home
Display: 15.6" HD (1366 x 768) anti-glare
Memory: 4GB DDR4 2400MHz
Graphics: Integrated AMD Radeon
Hard Drive: 500 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm

Customized #1: $450.00
Operating System: Windows 10 Pro - add $30.00

Customized #2: $503.00
Operating System: Windows 10 Pro - add $30.00
RAM: 8GB - add $53.00

Either would provide you with plenty of HDD space and RAM for what you need. I do prefer the Pro versions of Windows, but the Home edition would do just fine as well. Though I am not a fan of AMD processors, others have had great success with them here on the forum.

I think it also appropriate to state, that Bob has done an absolutely wonderful job of getting both SAW and SAC to work on minimalistic systems. I mean I have a Dell 12" laptop that I have sometimes used in a "quick and dirty" situations and it has worked surprisingly very well. Specs are Core2Du, 1.2GHz, 5GBs RAM and 120GB SDD - using the stock drivers that came with Windows 7 Pro.

Hope this helps?

Dell:

On an impulse, I just tried to order the E585 exactly as you configured it. "Honey" applied a coupon that brought it down to $456 and I tried to pull the trigger, but the Lenovo shopping cart wouldn't let me. I guess I will have to give them a call tomorrow. Hopefully, the money will still be burning a hole in my pocket by then.

Thanks for your suggestion!

Interestingly, I am still having trouble with the Lenovo site. It quotes me one price after all the modifications, then when I put the item in the cart and go to close the deal, the price is $100 or more higher!

Yep, believe it or not, I STILL have not pulled the trigger on a laptop, mostly because 1) based on my past experience trying to work with laptops on airplanes (Coach class), I do not want anything larger than an 11-12" screen, and 2) they make it so damned hard to buy anything these days, with so many models and generations and different configurations that I feel like buyer's remorse is guaranteed within a week of owning anything new.

In any event, the one laptop that seems to fit SOME of my requirements is the following one, a Lenovo with an i3 processor (I know, everybody says i5 is the minimum for audio editing) 8gb of RAM, and a bunch of other specs that I do not fully understand. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C9ZLVYH...v_ov_lig_dp_it

The processor is a Dual Core, so I guess it isn't the most current generation, which I believe is a Quad Core. But SAW Basic seems to work on just about any of my old systems I have tested it on, including the Toshiba I got for my 40th birthday in 2002 and the ASUS eeePC I paid $300 for a couple of years after that.

I only use SAW Basic for editing 4 or 5 tracks of voiceovers and stock music, no plug-ins at all. I DO NOT want to deal with a system that locks up or gives me Buffer Overrun messages when I am in a crabby mood (my 1-tear-old Dell desktop seems to do that no matter HOW I set the buffer).

So, without getting too technical, without trying to beat the idea of a used/refurbished laptop into my fat head, and with respect for my not wanting a larger screen, can anybody give the Lenovo ThinkPad 11e either a blessing or a blow-off?

Thank you, guys. You have always been very helpful and are usually very patient with me!

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Originally Posted by Tom M

...without trying to beat the idea of a used/refurbished laptop into my fat head, and with respect for my not wanting a larger screen, can anybody give the Lenovo ThinkPad 11e either a blessing or a blow-off?...

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I certainly wouldn't want to try and convince you that those older laptops of a used variety work great with any version of SAW..... but I've rarely ever heard anything negative about the Lenovo series of Thinkpads.
I think you'd have to try pretty hard to find one that would not work for what you want.

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Originally Posted by UpTilDawn

I certainly wouldn't want to try and convince you that those older laptops of a used variety work great with any version of SAW..... but I've rarely ever heard anything negative about the Lenovo series of Thinkpads.
I think you'd have to try pretty hard to find one that would not work for what you want.

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So the one in the link would be suitable, in your opinion? All I hear is how an i3 is not sufficient for audio editing, although, as you say, systems running much less than that seem to be fine. I refuse to spend more than $500 on a laptop that is probably going to self-destruct in two years, the way everything does these days.

Just noticed something. The Lenovo on Amazon has a maximum screen resolution of 1366 x 768. SAW calls for 1280 X 1024. Doesn't that mean that the bottom of my SAW desktop (i.e. the fader) will be cut off?

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Originally Posted by Tom M

So the one in the link would be suitable, in your opinion? All I hear is how an i3 is not sufficient for audio editing, although, as you say, systems running much less than that seem to be fine. I refuse to spend more than $500 on a laptop that is probably going to self-destruct in two years, the way everything does these days.

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I am not saying that I recommend that laptop in particular and given what you've posted about the screen resolution, maybe it's not suitable.

Maybe Bob can shed light on whether resizing the program(s) to fit that screen is possible.

Tom,

I am not in agreement with you regarding the life expectancy of hardware.

Though there may be some validity in your statement with regards to consumer-based goods, this, at least to me anyhow, is simply NOT the case with corporate-based goods.

As a computer consultant, I have been recommending, selling and servicing used "off-lease" equipment to my clients for over 20 year now - both for home-users and for corporate clients. I use two different suppliers and the systems are graded A+, A- and B. I prefer using A+ grade, but when not available I will consider A- or even B grade systems.

A+ systems are often in "as new" condition, and some systems have never been used at all. A- systems are identical to A+ systems - but show various cosmetic inconsistencies. B systems are those systems that have had 2+ years of actual service. - but are still very functional, and therefore, still quite usable. In the end, it really depends upon pricing.

At present, I have an A+ Lenovo T540p - and which has never been used. This unit sold new for $1500.00 and I obtained the unit for $540.00.

Anyhow, this is just my $2.00CDN worth!

SAWStudio will run on the 1366 resolution and even smaller... it has handled the lower resolution screens since the introduction of the small netbooks and tablets.

Bob L

Thanks, Bob, but it's the "768" I'm concerned about. On my Asus eeePC 900 (a 9 inch screen), I can fit the left and right sides of the SAW screen, but not the entire bottom of the screen. Based on the specs of the Lenovo, I would have the same problem with it.

Anyway, I have already thrown my hands up in the air, given up, and audibly yelled at all the laptop manufacturers in the world to go screw themselves. I simply can't believe how difficult they make it to buy anything these days. You can't find just one version of one good product and you can't find a model of anything that doesn't have a string of reviews (mixed in with all the FIVE STAR reviews) that reads "Piece of junk" or "Froze up two days after I bought it and the manufacturer is not responding."

Looks like I will continue working on SAW projects while chained to my desktop computer.

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Originally Posted by Tom M

Thanks, Bob, but it's the "768" I'm concerned about. On my Asus eeePC 900 (a 9 inch screen), I can fit the left and right sides of the SAW screen, but not the entire bottom of the screen. Based on the specs of the Lenovo, I would have the same problem with it.

Anyway, I have already thrown my hands up in the air, given up, and audibly yelled at all the laptop manufacturers in the world to go screw themselves. I simply can't believe how difficult they make it to buy anything these days. You can't find just one version of one good product and you can't find a model of anything that doesn't have a string of reviews (mixed in with all the FIVE STAR reviews) that reads "Piece of junk" or "Froze up two days after I bought it and the manufacturer is not responding."

Looks like I will continue working on SAW projects while chained to my desktop computer.

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Take a look at the Microsoft Surface Pro, I have been surprised at how decent these are.

12.3" Touch screen (2736x1824 pixels)

Microsoft Surface Pro 4 512GB, 16GB, Wi-Fi, 12.3 inch - Silver $450
Microsoft Surface Pro (5th Gen) 1796 i5-7300U 2.6GHz | 8GB | 256GB | STYLUS PEN $575

I think the biggest flaw is the microUSB charging port, but you can charge through the standard USB port with the surface dock adaptor.

I bought 2 of the standard model 3 (Not Pro models as remotes and was very pleasantly surprised).

Also, as far as reviews in general go, there will always be somebody that's not happy. Its the total number of reviews and the overall trend you have to look consider.

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Originally Posted by cgrafx

Take a look at the Microsoft Surface Pro, I have been surprised at how decent these are.

12.3" Touch screen (2736x1824 pixels)

Microsoft Surface Pro 4 512GB, 16GB, Wi-Fi, 12.3 inch - Silver $450
Microsoft Surface Pro (5th Gen) 1796 i5-7300U 2.6GHz | 8GB | 256GB | STYLUS PEN $575

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I think they are decent because they are $1,750. I was looking to spend $500-600, tops. Thanks, anyway.

There are a ton of great used Laptops for sale on eBay. Here is a good eBay store that rehabs them and sales them at a great price with 30 return.

https://www.ebay.com/str/laptop-of-t...p2047675.l2563

The 768 should work fine... just make sure to install and run SAW the first time with no F-Key files setup... then the screens will automatically adjust to the display resolution... then you can modifiy to your liking and save your F-Keys.

Bob L