Close

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26
  1. Default Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    I know there are some guys on this forum that have worked on really large tours and have some great experience, and probably a lot of bad experiences as well, that would help me with knowledge of some industry standards.

    Is there an industry standard on how channels are put together on a board. Vocals on channels 1 - x, then Keys, then bass, then guitars etc...

    Effects - Aux 1 is vocal reverb etc....

    Also, building a mix (outdoors). It seems it takes our local "pro sound" company a long time to dial in a mix. QueensRyche was five songs in before I could even hear the vocals and I was back by the sound booth so I know I was hearing what they were. By the last song it sounded great, but it took an hour before they sounded like it should.

    I guess I'm just a little confused as I tend to get it close then dial it in. Not, lets get the bass guitar sounding perfect, then the drums... etc. I don't know if that is whats happening, but it would explain the slow movement through the sound.

    If someone could shed a little light on this so I am better able to understand...

    Thanks,

    Jamie

  2. #2

    Default Re: Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    I ws taught to mark up channels thus:
    Kick, snare, hats, rack/s, floor, overheads, bass, gtrs, keys, vox, etc.... then aux returns were patched back down inputs just beyond the vox channels, that way the most important things were grouped together, but it's personal choice really.... The habit has stuck though...

    As far as 'dialing in' the sound; a good engineer will already know roughly where the EQ will need to be tweaked, what will need gated, compressed, etc, so it should be a fairly quick process. I generally take about 15 - 20 minutes to do a full band soundcheck and many times have just had to wing it with no sound check at all and build the mix on the fly. Challenging but not too much of a big deal if it's a good band with sensible stage levels.

    I've by no means super pro sound guy though.....

    The most important thing (for me) is the vocals....If I can't hear the vocals, I pull everything else out of the mix and gradually add it back in. Then kick and snare... everything else is colour..... If it takes more than 2 songs in to get it sounding good, then it's a bad day at the office....

    ymmv
    Steven.
    www.diablosoundhire.com
    --------------------------------------------------
    SAC Host: Rack mount PC with Intel E7400 Core 2 Duo, RME HDSP9652 soundcard. 3 x M-Audio Profire 2626 preamps. Main SAC Remote: Toshiba Tecra laptop with Intel T7600 Core 2 Duo CPU (Doubles up for use as back up host via FW to Profire).
    3 x CM Labs Motor Mix control surfaces.
    SAC Wireless 'wander the room / stage' Remote: Asus EeePC HA1101 Netbook.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westminster, CO
    Posts
    2,460

    Default Re: Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    The underlying philosophy to layout on a board is to group your key items together where the stuff you need to touch frequently is all within easy reach. Things should be grouped together into logical blocks to allow you to easily keep track of them.

    The method I learned to building a mix is to start with your focus items at a good level then bring things up to support but not mask that. Vocals are typically the focus item. As you mentioned, I tend to build a rough mix to support the focus first, then work to dial things in. Building a mix on the fly is probably one of the more difficult ways to do it since your attention needs to be constantly split between a specific item and the overall mix. Neglecting the overall mix causes exactly what you noticed.

    I'm a little surprised on the mix issues with QueensRyche. I'd expect them to have a decent soundcheck and a mix ready to go. A bad run of luck on the technical side could have made that an impossibility, but I'm still surprised.

  4. Default Re: Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    Just be consistent in what you do. That way you can mic up a typical band on stage without marking anything down. When you get back to the FOH position you can label all your channels without much thought. I always use the bass guitar as an anchor mentally. If I remember bass is on 8 then I know 1-7 are the drum kit (K,S,HH,T,T,OR,OL). I know guitars follow that and then keys. I also try to have a vocal "anchor" in mind as well and I group them together. It is simply a time saver particularly when you have a bad cable or change of bands. It's easy to look at the snake head and visualize what channels are heading where.

    For something like bluegrass I have a different system. I use all my instrument inputs stage R to L (ex. 1=banjo DI, 2=banjo mic, 3=guitar DI SR, 4=guitar DI Center etc.) Then I will string the vocal channels in a line in the same manner. Grouped together in a logical order.

    -Matt

  5. Default Re: Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    As far Queensryche...keep in mind that they could be ill, late, or otherwise "occupied". I've had plenty of times where the band shows up for sound check, but the lead singer walks in at doors or worse yet, just walks out on stage at performance time.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    3,493

    Default Re: Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    There is no "standard" of how you lay out you input channels. Everyone is going to do it a bit different. It's personal taste. The only norms are keeping things you need to adjust the most closest to where you're going to sit. This is why it became the norm to put the master section in the middle of the console rather than on the far right hand side. This way you could work in the master section where you likely need to keep you hands on subs the most often. And then group the inputs you need more often to the immediate left and right of the master section. Put things like drum mics, etc farthest away so you can just use the submasters to bring them up or down as group.

    Now how you want to translate that typical console layout into SAC is up to you. Because of course in SAC you can put the channels in any order that you like.

    Although you should be able to walk up to a board and know that channels labeled K,S,HH, T1, T2, etc... or Kick, Snare, etc... and that Vox is often used for Vocals, and I'm sure there are others that will just make sense if you walk up to the board.
    Richard B. Ingraham
    RBI Sound
    http://www.rbisound.com
    Email Based User List: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sac_users/

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    South West Florida USA
    Posts
    119

    Default Re: Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    The most common way to see a board marked in a tour situation is
    from back-line to vocals. Just the way sjpaul described.
    This is what I do for band engineers unless told otherwise.
    Since using SAC I just move the faders around on the screen where they make sense. It doesn't matter where they are patched to on the inputs.
    For troubleshooting on large stages it is nice to follow the norm of patching the drums in the first channels and then instruments and on to the vocals and effects.
    This is just accepted by most engineers and will be familiar.

    As far as dialing in a mix I often do not get much time for a sound check so I have guess work to do before the band arrives. The best technique I can offer you for getting the vocals right is to hook up a mic like the ones used by the singers and get the gain at the preamp set so it is not clipping.I do this by yelling into the mic loudly. The next step in my process is to talk on the mic and listen to what it sounds like on the PA. At this point I have my mic channel EQ flat. I am not a singer but I will go thru various octaves with my voice looking for what might be too much or too little etc.
    I adjust the drive levels to my amps on the MId and high sends to get as good a balance as possible throughout the vocal octaves.
    No I know that the system can accurately produce the vocals.
    If you can work this way you will start to find that you can operate with the main out EQ flat or nearly flat.
    The real trick here is to learn what EQ can fix and what it can not.
    There is no knob on the electronics that can defy the laws of sound physics.
    This is why setting gain structure right from the beginning and adjusting low mid and high drive and delay etc will get you the best transient response availably from your system.

    When the band arrives for sound check I will go thru the instruments first and get a good level on each one that is not too much gain for my preamps.
    At this point I can ask the band to play instruments only so I can dial in the drums and bass. To me these are the meat of the band and if you can get the kick and the bass to lay in with each other you will have an easier time mixing in the key, horns or whatever.
    Once I am fairly satisfied with the band sound then I pull them back in the mains and let the singer or singers start to work. At this point I am looking to get the vocals way out front and clear without being too harsh or brittle.
    Beware, a lot of singers will want to save their power for the performance and will not be singing with the full intensity as the show.
    This is where you have to be assertive and get them to put their best into it.
    Have them do the heaviest number that they will be doing that show.
    It does no good to check the band on a slow ballad when the bulk of their material is rock or whatever.
    I like to avoid excessive EQ adjustments as this is a signal to me that there is another issue going on.
    OGO
    SAC Configuration:
    ASUS P5Q-E Intel E8400 Over clocked to 3.4GHZ 4MB RAM 2 RME Digiface with PCI Card 6 ADA800
    Ruberfilter, Tapeit, Studio Reverb
    Running up to 48 channels and 12 monitors
    with 60%-70% CPU Flawless and sounding amazing.
    Glad to leave that big outboard rack in the warehouse!!

  8. Default Re: Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    Just wanted to clarify that it has been multiple acts that have had this issue. Maybe I'm just too picky, but there is "a little off" and then there is "I'm lost and don't know what to do"...

    Jamie

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    3,493

    Default Re: Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarkeys.com View Post
    Just wanted to clarify that it has been multiple acts that have had this issue. Maybe I'm just too picky, but there is "a little off" and then there is "I'm lost and don't know what to do"...

    Jamie
    Well maybe they are not so "Pro" after all?

    An old saying I really like:

    Tools Do Not Equal Talent.

    Richard B. Ingraham
    RBI Sound
    http://www.rbisound.com
    Email Based User List: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sac_users/

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    South West Florida USA
    Posts
    119

    Default Re: Laying Out A Board and Pro Level Sound

    Yes I have found a lot of Hacks out there in this business.
    They have all these fancy tools and equipment but they can't make it work!
    OGO
    SAC Configuration:
    ASUS P5Q-E Intel E8400 Over clocked to 3.4GHZ 4MB RAM 2 RME Digiface with PCI Card 6 ADA800
    Ruberfilter, Tapeit, Studio Reverb
    Running up to 48 channels and 12 monitors
    with 60%-70% CPU Flawless and sounding amazing.
    Glad to leave that big outboard rack in the warehouse!!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •