OT: Question for you theatre/musical guys

[hclague]

Hi all

I have been asked to possibly fill in some dates at a local Arts center. The shows are pretty basic corporate, Dance, Talent show, etc.. type events.
System is a house line array with Yamaha M7cl. My question is about pay rate. What are some going rates for these type of one off's? some are 8-9 hours during the day. others are evening shows. Are they billed hourly or per gig etc.. Since I primarily do live Music venue's, I would like to have a reasonable idea of money before I start negotiating.

Thanks

Hal

[IraSeigel]

Hi all

I have been asked to possibly fill in some dates at a local Arts center. The shows are pretty basic corporate, Dance, Talent show, etc.. type events.
System is a house line array with Yamaha M7cl. My question is about pay rate. What are some going rates for these type of one off's? some are 8-9 hours during the day. others are evening shows. Are they billed hourly or per gig etc.. Since I primarily do live Music venue's, I would like to have a reasonable idea of money before I start negotiating.

Thanks

Hal

I'm in Seattle. The IA Local 15 hourly rate for an A1 is about $25/hr. There's overtime after 8 hours (time and a half). You could check the going rate in your city or state.

Ira

[hclague]

Thanks Ira

[RBIngraham]

Frankly it all depends on what the venue/organization can afford and how much I want to work with that organization. Some places want a day rate and they will work your buns off for that rate with no OT or anything like that. Some like an hourly rate. Most of the projects I work on have a simple fee that is negotiated and it's set. Do this project, and when it's over you get a check. Some of the better organizations will split the fee up into multiple payments, one for signing of contract, one for when rehearsals start and another upon completion of a project.

In your situation however, where you're just filling in, I would just request an hourly rate or a day rate depending on which makes the most sense. What those rates are will depend on the financial level the organization is working at. Some places can afford to pay me a decent hourly rate, like I might make if I was working on an IATSE crew. Others are embarrassingly low, as I in I would be better off working at a fast food joint some days. But taking those low paying gigs usually will lead to better paying ones, in my experience. Some times even in the same organization. Do the show the theatre is producing for very little money and then you get first dibs on the space rentals that actually can pay some money. That kind of thing.

[IraSeigel]

...
Do the show the theatre is producing for very little money and then you get first dibs on the space rentals that actually can pay some money. That kind of thing.

Richard, I love to argue with you, and I will do so again now

My experience, and my gut instinct, is that if you charge a very low rate, your employer will: 1) feel he's getting what he's paying for; 2) will interpret your willingness to work really cheap as desperation; and 3) will hire someone "better" - i.e., more expensive - when he can afford it.

A higher rate gives you a "cachet" of a quality person. Don't sell yourself short.

IMO

Ira

[Phil]

A higher rate gives you a "cachet" of a quality person. Don't sell yourself short.
Ira

as a young guy who has interest and passion for this, it is so easy to underbid to get to learn the trade. we young guys need mentors to guide us. perhaps we can afford bigger and better toys.

[RBIngraham]

Richard, I love to argue with you, and I will do so again now

My experience, and my gut instinct, is that if you charge a very low rate, your employer will: 1) feel he's getting what he's paying for; 2) will interpret your willingness to work really cheap as desperation; and 3) will hire someone "better" - i.e., more expensive - when he can afford it.

A higher rate gives you a "cachet" of a quality person. Don't sell yourself short.

IMO

Ira

Ira with all due respect I don't really think you have any idea how the theatre scene works and how small theatre companies operate. Maybe I'm making a wild assumption there, I'm sure you will correct me. Just like I know very little about the touring concert world.

Here is the point blank truth about working in theatre. If you don't want to do it because you truly love the art the form and no matter what else you try to do with your life you keep coming back to doing theatre, then you should walk away from theatre and not look back. Because outside of NYC, maybe Vegas (if you can stand to work on nonsense spectacle shows with no plot and little concept other than "wow! cool!") and maybe LA, guess what? Theatre is done for the love of the art, not because you're going to make a killing doing it. In most cities in the US outside the ones mentioned above there are maybe 2 or 3 gigs doing sound in theatre worth doing. By that I mean you can earn an actual reasonable living doing them.

Now if you want to push someone else's road boxes around or just operate a show (push GO on a computer, or run props, shift scenery, etc.) for the rest of your life, you can play the game of getting yourself into the IATSE local. (Stage Hands Union) In my experience anyway, this is a difficult task to get into any local that is very strong and actually has much work. Makes sense, the only way they all get a reasonable amount of work is by keeping their ranks small. For example, I've been sought after in a couple of locals (i.e. they bugged me to join them because they could really use a good, serious theatre sound person) that are in small towns where I've worked some college gigs and theatre festivals. But these are in towns where there are maybe 5 or 6 guys who are stage hands full time and everyone else does it just when the big shows come to town. And you have to live in the middle of no where, so there are very few opportunities outside your IA calls. Compare that with Cleveland (granted, Local 27 is text book example of everyone is someone else's brother, son, uncle, nephew, or at least their old high school buddy, etc...) where it takes years of begging just to get thrown onto the extra list. And after you do that, what do you get to do? Mostly pushing road boxes around at the local arenas and theaters when tours come through. Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. I have many friends in Local 27 and they are good guys. There are of course you're typical cranky, unhelpful types around, but most of the hands I know if you respect them and know how to ask for things they will work their butts off for you, as long as you mind the rules and the coffee breaks.

I am glad there are guys and gals willing to do that work. Especially when I am the designer on a show and they are working on my show. LOL. But I'm not interested in that kind of work. That is not how you get to design a show. It is not how you get to mix shows (except once in a blue moon maybe). Again I'm talking outside NYC, LA and Vegas. And I'm sure there are other exceptions in other parts of the country that I am not familiar with. Probably in right to work states. (if you ever want to get a real union guy all cranked off, just say "right to work state" )

Most major cities have what is called a LORT theatre. (League of Regional Theatres) These are often non-union, or only partially unionized or they have agreements with the IA local so they can hire whomever they like. Varies from state to state and city to city. These are where I would say you will find the 2 or 3 sound person gigs in a town where you can make a living.

Outside of that, once you take that step into the semi-pro theatre world (as I call it) you have only a couple of options. You either get your terminal degree (typically a Masters of Fine Arts, which is a terminal degree in most schools, the equivalent of a doctorate) and hunt down one of the few sought after teaching positions in theatre sound in the country (they are growing in number, but I can still count all the jobs worth having on my fingers and toes in the country). Or you make the choice that you're going to take a leap of faith and work as a freelancer, which means you will have to work for well below what you are truly worth most days. You do it because you love the craft and no matter what else you try to do with your life, you some how get sucked back into theatre.

That is where I am at. I got totally lucky that I have support from my family and it took me many years to build up enough clients to just squeak out an existence. Not sure I would call it a living. You have to be willing to juggle way too many gigs all at the same time and make it look easy. You have to be willing to vary your rates based on what you just know the theatre company can afford. For example I make twice as much to design a show for college as I do in most of the small semi-pro theatres I work at in town. When times were good, I would do a couple of cruise ships shows a year and that was probably 1/3 to 1/2 of my yearly income. Yep, some years I made half the income I was going to make in about 4 weeks at sea. (a rare place where you get paid what your worth, and you don't have to live there... LOL) But those gigs are a royal pain to break into and even more difficult to keep on the "list" since there are many people trying to get on that list. (I'm not talking about running the shows, to do that you have to be willing to go to sea for 9 months, much like working on a theatre tour.

Speaking of theatre tours and cruise ships, there is a good way to make some money if you're willing to live on a ship or out of suitcase for months on end. I rather not thank you, so I make the choice to pass those opportunities up.

If you choose to eek out a living working in the semi-pro theatre world, you have to be willing to under sell yourself. Plain and simple. In exchange you probably get to work on some of the most artistically rewarding pieces of theatre being done. New works, experimental, big shows that most LORT houses can no longer afford to produce, etc... It's sad but true that most of the pro theatre companies simply can not afford to produce the big musicals any longer. When I worked at The Cleveland Play House (a LORT theatre) for about 7 years, we did some really big orch pits. 20 players some times. Now most days it's a combo (Piano, Bass, Drums and 1 or 2 reeds or horns) and if you have a cast of 10 that's a huge cast. There are very few LORTs doing shows with a cast of 35 to 50 actors and 15+ piece orchestra. Sadly you'll only get to do those shows in NYC, on a Broadway tour, or in small theatre companies once the rights become available.

I'm not saying there are not exceptions of course. And maybe in the case of the original poster who is just trying to fill in here and there he will find some places that can pay a decent rate I don't know. It probably depends on what city he is in.

Sorry bro, this is the way legit theatre works, at least in my experience. Oh and don't worry Ira, my tactics have worked. I'm probably the most sought after theatre sound designer in town. And I'm not just saying that to toot my own horn here. I am probably one of maybe 3 people in town that most theatres really want to hire to do their sound for them. Believe it or not, I'm considered one of the "expensive" ones. Which is what is truly sad. LOL. The point is that I am very sought after because most folks with talent and skills for theatre sound will do it for a little while in the MidWest and then take off for greener pastures in NYC or a handful of other places with better opportunities. (and then you might see them come home a few years later when NYC chewed them up and spit them back out and they are broke.... but that's mostly actors!)

[Trackzilla]

OK, I get it...no budget, stiff competition for mostly mediocre work, a long road of undervaluing yourself in a quest for recognition...no reason to do this professionally except for a love of the craft that borders on the clinical definitions of insanity and precludes the development of a 'normal' life.

So what you are saying is...it's pretty much just like the rest of the audio world except for rehearsals, hidden musicians, less set-up & tear down between shows, and more props

It's OK to admit it, we're a support group after all

"I'm Ramsey, & I'm an Audioholic"

[IraSeigel]

Hi,
Hal's question says that he was asked by a local Arts center to fill in on some dates. He mentions corportate, theater, talent, etc.

When he said "Arts center", I interpret that to mean Performing Arts Center - that would be a venue that could accommodate corporate events, along with the other types of activities he mentions. I did not interpret that to mean he was being asked to help out at at local community recreation center.

I'm sure your experience and insight are valuable Richard, but (once again), I think you've gone OT on what the original poster was asking.

I've done many club gigs for essentially gas money in my early days - but that's not what Hal was asking about.

Hal, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ira

[RBIngraham]

I'm sure your experience and insight are valuable Richard, but (once again), I think you've gone OT on what the original poster was asking.

Fine. Then I'll just keep my insights to myself. Screw it!