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  1. #1

    Default Building the ideal computer for Saw

    Hi Guys,
    I’m looking to upgrade my computer. I’ve already purchased a RME RayDat PCIe as my audio card. This is my 1st time building a computer, and I want to build an ideal system for Saw. I’m not worried about spending money (can go as high a $2,500), but I don’t want to waste money of components that will not be utilized. I do use a lot of plug-ins, and I am looking to add convolution reverb to the list. These are some of the questions I’ve come against:
    · Ram speed is important, but is DDR3 2000 – 2400 overkill
    · How much Ram is too much (3 or 4 Gig enough or would 8 help – 12 too much?) – Win 7 64bit worth it or stick with XP 32 (I know this one is a hot topic around here)
    · i7 960 – is that over-kill – should I consider AMD instead
    · Speed of hard drive – 10,000 RPM or solid state – do they help – I’ve heard that the solid states run hot and sometimes blow out – Should Saw and/or the audio folder be on a separate drive from the OS? What is the best hard drive configuration
    · As far as motherboard – I will probably make that decision based on the processor and ram I choose – I would like something with USB3 incase a new toy comes out
    · Graphics Card – dual monitor and stay out of the way of Saw – I only do audio
    · Power supply (how big?) cooling (liquid or quiet fan) Case?
    Based on this (and anything I’ve missed) could you guys give me your opinion on the specs for an ideal system?
    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Building the ideal computer for Saw

    I have built many computers and I can tell you its cheaper just to buy them built these days. The computer I use now is a dual core AMD with 4gb ram on Win 7 64bit and it handles anything I throw at it and if needed I can double my CPU and Ram for under $300.

    You can buy computers much more powerful then mine for $1000 all day long and you don't have to get all into building it. It used to be cheaper to build them but not anymore.

    But on the other hand if you just want to learn how to build one then go for it.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Building the ideal computer for Saw

    Quote Originally Posted by Microstudio View Post
    I have built many computers and I can tell you its cheaper just to buy them built these days. The computer I use now is a dual core AMD with 4gb ram on Win 7 64bit and it handles anything I throw at it and if needed I can double my CPU and Ram for under $300.

    You can buy computers much more powerful then mine for $1000 all day long and you don't have to get all into building it. It used to be cheaper to build them but not anymore.

    But on the other hand if you just want to learn how to build one then go for it.
    Yeah, but most of the ones you buy have 1333 (or slower) ram and comparable other components. Is that what you are using? At that level, I***8217;m sure buying and building are the same price point, but faster ram can only be used with certain processors and motherboards (from what I***8217;ve seen in my research). I forgot to add that I may want to use this computer with SAC in the future. Won***8217;t faster ram add to my performance (only SAC or Saw also)? In that realm of high end components, it seems that the buying price jumps up and building is still much cheaper. Are you saying that entering into that realm at all is all overkill?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Building the ideal computer for Saw

    You can buy a computer, or you can build a computer. I've done both. Generally it is a lot easier and cheaper to buy one. I did not want to, but I built my last one and it was loaded with features that you will NOT get on a pre-built:
    special noise dampening case w/isolated power supply area
    no-fan power supply
    Ninja cooler
    speed control for the case fans
    my choice of mother board, memory (kind and speed) video card, firewire card, drives and other periferals.

    I already had a keyboard, mouse, and video displays, and the OS and audio card. Total cost was right around $1600 for what was a top performing system at that time, though I did opt for the middle processor among the three from that series, which saved me quite a bit of money. I don't know that I have suffered any performance hits because of this savings, as I tend to work in a stripped down fashion.

    I also spent some time with the data from the Bold Fortune website on how to strip XP down to the bare minimum, but the info was really deeper than I was willing to go..... I'm just not that smart.

    So yes, you can buy a machine. But if you have the budget for a killer machine, building one can get better performance and a machine that lasts a lot longer before you feel the need to replace it.

    The other issue is time and desire: do you want to spend your time building a machine and learning about the proper setup, or do you want to just get to making music. Then there are -three- options... buying a machine premade specifically for audio (which I consider to be a crapshoot, from my experience) which allows you to turn it on, load in your software, and get to work; buying a premade general purpose machine and spending a certain amount of time stripping out all of the crap and getting the machine ready for audio, then loading in your software and getting to work; or building the machine from pieces/parts.

    As it happens I have just gone through prepping two laptops. One, and MSI, was a piece of cake to clean out and reset for my purposes. Probably took an hour. The other, a Compaq/HP, STILL has a bunch of crap in it after close to a month of pissing around with it...I really should have just reformatted the hard drive and started from scratch, but there are painful downsides to that as well. So making -any- premade machine into an audio machine is possible, but it is not always as easy as it could be.

  5. Default Re: Building the ideal computer for Saw

    Yeah, but most of the ones you buy have 1333 (or slower) ram and comparable other components. Is that what you are using? At that level, I’m sure buying and building are the same price point, but faster ram can only be used with certain processors and motherboards (from what I’ve seen in my research). I forgot to add that I may want to use this computer with SAC in the future. Won’t faster ram add to my performance (only SAC or Saw also)? In that realm of high end components, it seems that the buying price jumps up and building is still much cheaper. Are you saying that entering into that realm at all is all overkill?
    I totally agree. No doubt you can buy a built system that will suffice, but you'll get more bang for your buck building it yourself and you get EXACTLY what you want.

    I'm in the middle of a build for a new HD video editing system..decided I wanted/needed USB 3.0 to do some USB KVM stuff and Gig dual LANs for video acquisition from the network. So, doing it myself I can get all the latest greatest stuff for a way less than a pre-built system of stuff that's "not even close to what I want/need". Again, this is for a desktop/work/dev/video editing system.. not a SAW/SAC system. But once the video is done..I take it to SAW for scoring.

    Yes. For SAW and SAC:

    • faster RAM
    • faster Processor
    • faster disc


    Spend more of your budget here..Faster is better. All the latest greatest stuff there will do VERY nicely. Multi-core cpu's don't get you much.. Don't go beyond a 2 core. Get the fastest 2 core you can find/afford

    Digital Dexterity Records




  6. #6
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    Default Re: Building the ideal computer for Saw

    I had used my tower (custom built 3-4 years ago) for bigger gigs, though it was awkward to move around. I had never really maxed out the system, so I suspected with all the hardware improvements, most any intel/asus system would work.
    I bought off ebay a refurbished hp core duo 2.17 mhz 2gig ram, 833 fsb, Sata 7200rpm C: drive, onboard vga, onboard nic, DVD player only, 250w ps, winXP pro coa, usb keyboard and mouse included, desktop.
    $230 delivered.
    Removed the DVD.
    Added a Sata D: drive.
    My RME cards were too tall, so I removed the case top. I also had to remove the mechanism for securing PCI cards. The rme daughter cards sit in a static bag resting on the mobo with cables (connectors and bnc for wc) coming out of the bag. (I cannot access the dsub connectors until I cut away a piece of the back frame with a hack saw. So for now, no spdif. I'll get to it) The case bottom is secured to a rack mount shelf with angle irons. I secured a see thru plastic top over the whole thing with a bunge cord.
    It's ugly as hell!
    Running sac and saw-2X64. Playback of 24 tracks on O1 to SAC, recording 24 tracks from SAC with all EQ and comps enabled, 1 freeverb on aux fed from all 24 tracks, and 7 mon mixes with exact same eq-comp-verb set up, (deliberately not configured efficiently), runs at 99% all day long, no dropped buffers. I have not tried it with a remote. The PS will have to be upgraded, though it appears to be handling it now.
    I suspect, but havent tested yet, with comps and eq s configured in a realistic way, and mons being fed from mon 1 for the most part, the sys could probably do 24 ins, foh and 7 mons at 50%.
    My point is unless your doing 64 inputs and 14 mons, time spent concerned about squeaking every last inch of performance may be mis-spent.
    my 2 cents.
    Last edited by Bud Johnson; 08-07-2010 at 09:14 AM. Reason: added dvd info

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Building the ideal computer for Saw

    Quote Originally Posted by RayM View Post
    Yeah, but most of the ones you buy have 1333 (or slower) ram and comparable other components. Is that what you are using? At that level, I’m sure buying and building are the same price point, but faster ram can only be used with certain processors and motherboards (from what I’ve seen in my research). I forgot to add that I may want to use this computer with SAC in the future. Won’t faster ram add to my performance (only SAC or Saw also)? In that realm of high end components, it seems that the buying price jumps up and building is still much cheaper. Are you saying that entering into that realm at all is all overkill?
    I use DDR3 1333 ram and have no problems. Memory is so fast these days and the bus speeds are off the charts. Don't get caught up in the latest and greatest tech stuff because as soon as you buy it or build it... it will be out of date.

    A PC running 4 GB's of DDR3 1333 memory will be more then enough for SAW or SAC. I would say if you buy or build go 64bit this will allow you to have a ton of memory as 32bit will only allow 4gb. I run SAW on win7 64bit with no problems.

    Again I will say if you want to learn how to build one go for it.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Building the ideal computer for Saw

    The worst part of off the shelf computers is the integrated branding. Like the fact that you don't get a full operating system disk, it's just a recovery disk, which many times is useless when the system gets hosed for whatever reason, and the bios is specially programmed for the company that made it, sometimes making firmware updates difficult or not possible, and the hard disk has embedded information on it particular to that machine and company usually in the master boot sector, making it a mess if you want to change anything..

    I would never by off the shelf, never have. I've fixed a lot of other peoples computers that were brand names, after they got nowhere with tech support, and they all were a nightmare to get back in working condition, for all the above reasons.

    Building a system, especially nowadays, is like putting together legos, as long as you do a little homework before hand, like reading this forum for one, it's the best way to go in my opinion.
    Tony

  9. #9

    Default Re: Building the ideal computer for Saw

    Ray, I built my own machine for DAW last year (again). I put an i7 920 in it and fast triple-threaded ram. I also setup 2 HD subsystems. The first is a standard 1GB Barracuda. The second is a RAID 0 drive comprised of 2, 150GB, Raptors. I record to the Raptors and store stuff longer term on the Barracuda. I also have all my programs on the Barracuda as well as boot off it. I have my VSTi data distributed over both drives. I also backup to an external USB drive that I don't keep connected to the box all the time.

    In retrospect, although it works great most of the time, I should have spent less money on a chip with fewer cores that had a faster clock rate. I'm still very happy with the RAM and the Barracuda. The Raptor RAID drive is complete overkill for audio. Video - maybe. The USB drive lets me sleep at night.

    You really don't need a bleeding edge system anymore to do DAW. It won't hurt you to have it if it makes your propeller spin but some of those MIPs are going to be idle. It's easier these days to have a decent system, performance-wise, for less money. My 920 doesn't break a sweat unless I'm using very thick reverb VST. And then, one core is pegged while the other 3 just sit there. A 960 is quite a bit faster - but, I doubt 3 of it's cores would do much either.

    One thing to plan for though, in my opinion is quietness. This is an area in which building it yourself can reap dividends. Computer noise is the enemy of audio recording. I like Bill's idea of a fan-less power supply. If you go for fans at all - bigger is better: they get more blow out of lower rpms. Rpms = noise, which gets in your way if you record or mix in the same room.

    Antec and others make cases that are double-walled with sound-proofing in between. If you go for fans, arrange to have a motherboard that can control their speed so that they only go as fast as they absolutely must to keep everything cool - and a case whose fans will make use of that feature.

    If you go for a fan-cooled power supply, consider one that talks about how quiet it is as one of it's features. Preferably - one whose fan only runs as fast as it absolutely has to to cool the electronics.

    Consider a fanless video controller. It won't be the fastest video available - but it will be plenty fast enough to do DAW and, again, it will be quiet.

    In general, the fewer fans you have in the box - and the larger the few that you do have (if any) the better. Obviously - it's still very important to cool everything but when you can use a method that doesn't make noise: do that instead.

    Some cases have little gummy grommet stand-off things that the hard disks sit on. This reduces the amount of vibration that makes it to the case itself. Very worthwhile. You can also get them aftermarket too. They're relatively cheap for a big difference. They also sell them to act as acoustic buffers between things that make noise and your case. You can get them for your power supply, your fans, etc.

    There are some other things you can do that begin to get a little arcane. There are 'sleeves' that you can mount your hard drives in that will also reduce their noise. Wrapping a hard drive also reduces the drives ability to cool itself, so these devices include special cooling stuff too. Water cooling is another arcane option, But if you go that route - get a good one (electronics hate being wet) - and also make sure that the heat exchanger on the outside is fan-less.

    As others have mentioned, once you get your OS loaded - strip it bare to stop it, as much as possible, from using time slices to do background things. There are lists and links available around here somewhere that will tell you how to do that. Search for them and I'm sure you'll see them. Unlike most computer applications, audio can't wait very long for other things to finish with the processor. When it does - you hear little clicks in your recording where there are time slices missing.

    Most people are still using XP. The consensus among those who use Windows 7 here seems to be that it works fine with SAW but not with some older VSTs.


    OH - one more thing. If you decide to use XP - realize that it can't address more than a couple of GB of RAM. Any more than that will not be used.
    Last edited by John Ludlow; 08-07-2010 at 12:01 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Building the ideal computer for Saw

    XP 32 will generally address about 3.5 gigs... so I always build with 4 gigs of a matched set in the motherboard.

    You can go XP 64 also if you feel the need to access more ram for vst synths or samplers... not sure if it really helps... but some feel it does.

    Win 7 still needs a lot more experimenting with cleaning out the background kludge for my taste.

    Bob L

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