Surround Pans/Assigns Explained?

[Sean McCoy]

The use of a separate device for sub and center makes things much nicer to work... so device 1 for front lr, device 2 for rear lr, device 3 for center, device 4 for sub... this makes it easy. You can set the mono switch for the center and sub output channel or simply use the L output to feed the speakers.Bob L

I'm setting up for a surround mix, and find that I cannot seem to use one device pair for both center and sub. I've assigned both output tracks 2 and 3 to device 2 and panned them left and right, respectively. But in that configuration I only get signal from the center and nothing from the sub. If I move the sub to another device output, all is well. I realize this makes some sense anyway, but since the standard configuration is L-R-C-S-LS-RS, it would be nice to be able to assign these to my converter outputs in that same order. This would also leave converter outputs 7 & 8 for a separate stereo mix. What am I doing wrong?

[Bob L]

The XY pan assignments must be used with individual OUT tracks assigned as hardware devices... meaning assigned to their same respective out number... you can not use them as sub group faders and then also as XY pan assigns.

Bob L

[Sean McCoy]

the FB center are the two nodes in the front and back of the panner... you could feed the center channel from these and then leaning forward on the panner will move signal to the front center and vice versa... just depends on what works best for your style of mixing....

I like the separate center and sub controls which allow me to have full use of the panner with no concerns for leaning forward or backward to keep things in or out of the center speaker... the seaparte control is completely automatable along with the panner sweep so you can fly things around the room and also move it in and out of the center at the same time... very powerful.

One point of clarification to make sure I'm not missing something here. The dedicated center and FB center both need to feed the same speaker and rendered file (for the front center, anyway), but I find I can't get signal from both via the same output channel and have to assign them to separate channels feeding the same output device. This seems counterintuitive since it makes it impossible to use a single meter to measure center channel activity and will also require two sets of plugins for the same channel. I could swear this used to work, and I even have an old template with both assigned to one output. Did something change, or am I just messed up somehow?

[Sean McCoy]

Bob, if you could straighten me out on this, it would be appreciated. I'm starting on a 5.1 theatrical mix and would prefer to do it right!

[ambler]

One point of clarification to make sure I'm not missing something here. The dedicated center and FB center both need to feed the same speaker and rendered file (for the front center, anyway)...

...I'm starting on a 5.1 theatrical mix and would prefer to do it right!

I've never done any 5.1 mixing so I might be missing the point here, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that you wouldn't use 'FB center' in a 5.1 mix at all.

Mark

[Sean McCoy]

I've never done any 5.1 mixing so I might be missing the point here, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that you wouldn't use 'FB center' in a 5.1 mix at all.

Mark

You have to use FB Center to do sweeps across the front three speakers. The dedicated center send is great for sounds that are generally fixed in the center such as dialogue, but for sound effects or anything else that moves from left to right or vice versa, the sound will cross through the center channel on its way. Doing this without the visual feedback of the XY panner is tough. So the audio that ultimately ends up rendered into the center channel file will ideally be a combination of FB center and the dedicated center.

[Bob L]

There are various ways to set up the surround outs... the most basic way for 5.1 in my opinion would seem to set Out 1 to LR Front, Out 2 to LR Rear, Out 3 to FB Center and Out 4 to Sub.

Now you will have a stereo front out on 1, a stereo rear out on 2. You would use the L side of Out 3 (set the Out 3 mono mode to L Only) as the Front Center speaker and the L or R out (set the mono mode accordingly) from 4 as the sub.

Keeping the XY panner to the front gives you normal pan control in front, no rear output... leaking the XY panner to the back starts to give you rear output... the Front Center output will track the left/right XY pan... as you stay in the center, the center out will be high, as you move to either side, it will drop... the sub, will feed from the separate sub control, which is easily automated as well... you can choose to use any graphic eq in the sub out channel to create your choice of signal rolloff.

When you do the buildmix, you will get two stereo files for front and rear, 1 mono file for center, and one mono file for sub... these files can then be used through whatever hardware or software encoder you choose for the finished format.

Perhaps others will chime in with their configurations.

Bob L

[Sean McCoy]

Ah, so you're recommending the use of dedicated Center versus FB center as an either/or option. I can certainly see using both within a single project, particularly for film where there are certain elements that are locked to the center and others that will on occasion move through the center. Is the output routing wired in such a way that it is impossible to have a single output handling both Center and FB Center?

I'm definitely interested in what others using XY for 5.1 have to say about this. Am I out to lunch with this idea? Now that I think about it, how would this work if one were actually mixing for Dolby EX, where there really is a center rear? The two centers would need to be on separate outputs. That could get confusing.

[Bob L]

Sean, my example allows things to move thru the center output which is the use of the FB Center node... you are only using the front node... there is no back center needed for film surround... not in 5.1 surround or any other I am aware of.

If you pan the XY from left to right... the signal will fade up thru the center and fade down again as it sweeps in the L and R stereo pair.

Bob L

[Sean McCoy]

Sean, my example allows things to move thru the center output which is the use of the FB Center node... you are only using the front node... there is no back center needed for film surround... not in 5.1 surround or any other I am aware of.

Well, there is Dolby EX, which is 6.1 and uses a center rear. I believe this was developed for Lucas's Phantom Menace, but it doesn't look like it really caught on. I wired my room for a center rear speaker but seriously doubt I'll ever install one there.

If you pan the XY from left to right... the signal will fade up thru the center and fade down again as it sweeps in the L and R stereo pair.

Bob L

Understood (if the FB center node is active as well, of course). I think I just misinterpreted your statement about using the dedicated Center fader and still being able to fly things around as meaning the dedicated Center could be used in conjunction with the FB center. This would still make sense to me since in film there are definitely uses for both fixed center and panning thru center, but using the dedicated Center as part of a sweep would be impractical. I'm probably just not making my muddled thoughts clear enough. I'll try to give you a call this week.