Front end chain?

[trock]

Ok i asked yesterday about outboard gear and possibly using what i do now for aux sends and mastering, namely an Avalon 747sp for mastering and a TC Electronics M3000 reverb unit, used for aux send reverb etc off my 2480.

you all have answered me abuot outboard gear used in these respects.

however i was thinking that it is still probably a good idea to get the best sounding input signal??

say i have something like an AValon 737sp, or a pendulum quartet etc that i ran my vocals or acoustic through? that then went into the RME and into SAW?

i guess my questions is this.

Can SAW sound as good with say an RME (good A/D converter) standalone vs having a nice front end chain then the RME?

so i understand getting rid of your outboard mastering to use Buildmix, but does having something like the M3000 which is a stellar reverb unit as an aux send help? especially if it sounds better than Plug verbs

does anyone use something like the 737sp for a front end before SAW??

thanks

[Pedro Itriago]

Now, you see, the problem with this question is that you're entering the strange world of recording.

You'll get a different opinion from everyone that answers plus one. You're getting into recording techniques (unless I'm missing something in your question).

You have to think of saw as you would a stand alone tape deck, with some great enhancements, of course.

So, you would record a dry signal and mess with it only in digital, or put all your processing onto your instruments before they hit the a/d and just do mastering with some plug-ins inside saw, etc.

The thing is you're asking which one sounds better and that's up to you. Both your outboard gear and the plug-ins are just tools. How you use them, no matter which one, is what will make them sound good.

A good example of that? look for Bob's post here about the live gig he had at the golden nugget with Lon Bronson this new year's eve; just a laptop, 2 or 3 behringer converters with onboard mic preamps, a rme multiface and I think that was about it.

[trock]

Hey Pedro

i guess i am trying to gauge how people use SAW more than anything?

i think for me i feel more comfortable with the ability to tweak a signal at all levels of the process. if SAW takes care of mastering for me and editing with effects once on the track, then for me the missing piece is the original signal

unless i am missing something, does SAW allow you to Insert effects, dynamics on the incoming signal before it hits the track/ on the insert?

then it gets into the quality of the SAW inserts vs something like the 737 or pendulum?

very subjective i know

but thanks for any help with how people are using saw with anything else in any respect

i guess too it is hard to get my head around getting rid of all the equipment everyone said i needed to make a good souding recording??

crazy

[Sean McCoy]

SAW accurately reproduces what you send into it. So with regards to acoustic recording of any kind---the necessary analog part---the quality of the signal is naturally of extreme importance. Good and proper mics, preamps, EQ's and compressors up front---that doesn't change regardless of format and isn't really controversial.

Reverbs tend to foster more disagreements, however. Personally, in spite of the great strides convolution technology has made in improving plugin reverb quality, I've yet to hear one that, under scrutiny, can hold a candle to my TC's, Lexicons---or even my trusty old SRV2000. I use various reverb plugs often for post-production and quickie demos, but for any critical music mixing I always go back to my outboard verbs. Having to mix in realtime is a minor inconvenience. Lack of instant and total recall is more of an inconvenience, and I am looking forward to the day when I can confidently retire my hardware verbs. But not yet.

[trock]

Hi Sean

hmmmm

this is interesting cause my TC M3000 has great sounds and i was not wanting to get rid of it. is setting up aux sends to it in SAW easy to do?? it sounds like you still do this

i really might just trade my 747 for a 737 then since the 747 is really more for mastering and the 737 is great as a front end all in one

so it sounds like

1) get the best front end possible since SAW does not insert effects as they come in- comp/eq etc, it just reproduces what you send in

unless i am reading this wrong this seems like a pretty big limitation

2) continue to use some outboard gear for aux sends such as revebs etc with the M3000

cause like you i had the UA studio PAK and WAVES and they were not nearly as good as the outboard gear so i find it hard to believe that freeware plugs are going to compete

coming from cubase who had some top notch included plugs with WAVES, and UA it never came close to the outboard avalon stuff, TC stuff etc?

[Bob L]

You can route SAWStudio's channel strip and plugin effects direct to the disk as you record... but why?

No difference really... in the end... you now get stuck with processed signals that most likely will require more processing to sit correctly in the final mix... why limit your options...

Outside of a little signal compression BEFORE the signal actually gets to the soundcard (with external hardware), I really see no advantage to processing on the way to the disk... process aftward and you have not locked yourself into anything to start with.

I disagree with the need for Lexicon and other outboard reverbs... many plugs have done a great job and I still find my simple SAWStudio Reverb plug to be all I really use most of the time... I have yet to hear any lacking in the tone or smoothness of the reverb trails even under the most detailed listening on some of the smooth jazz projects like the Steven Lee Group CD... but, of course, all that is still a matter of personal preference... but the freedom the virtual reverb gives me in handling the entire project and being able to bring up the session months later and make an adjustment and still get an exact reverb trail that was in the original mix is something there is no way I can give up just for a slightly different reverb signal from my expensive hardware verbs, which in the final mix no one can really hear the difference anyway.

Adding my echo plug in front of the reverb for a little controlled pre-delay, and following the reverb with my eq plug to adjust the tone for each specific session, and using the HD chambers is all I have found I need to create any kind of ambience in any kind of project I do.

Just my opinion.

Bob L

[trock]

ahhhh

here is where the glaring difference between the home hobbyst who has "read" alot collides with someone who has actually done so much real world.

Believe me i am NO expert in any of this. i was caught up in the you need this this and this on the forums i was on, then you need outboard gear cause plugs aren't nearly as good

and i have to say my 2480 setup with outboard gear was much better than the MAC/Cubase/UA/WAVES set with an RME front end

BUT

i have no idea why?? could have been ANY part of that or mistakes i was making

i am certainly not trying to be argumentative, i am just to the point where if i make one more mistake with a purchase and a whole new setup i will be the most frustrated person on the planet

i have gone through 2 iterations of recording setups and never once gotten what i could hear in my head. then i figured it was because in the end this is my house and not a state of the art studio

so when i heard about SAW, oh 3 days ago or so i was very excited but very skeptical.

everyone says, outboard gear (good stuff) is better than plugs, everyone says MAC's are better than PC's, everyone says you can't master in your DAW you have to send it out, everyone was saying this and SOOO much more till my head was spinning

i heard this and read this and believed it till 30K had been spent and in the end my tascam 8 track from 15 years ago was starting to look good again

in all honesty i am just having such a hard time getting my head around the concept that this all in one is it????????

this is my fault not anyone here's.

and heck i haven't even recorded a track yet myself, just watched the video's downloaded the demo and played with the F buttons

i told robert i was a nightmare

oh one other question i guess.

i am by myself and am just a simple songwriter who plays guitar, programs his drums on a triton or 880, plays his bass and strings or whatever on the triton and sings into an AT4050.

what would be better in terms of A/D conversion??

the RME Fireface 800? or an Apogee 200?? just curious

i am using an M-Audio 410 right now for my front end to SAW and its converters won't cutit in the end

you can tell by my really long posts how i am

also the big thing is i have not budgetted for this whole new setup so i have to redo everything and sell stuff to get the setup i would want. so that is why it is so important to me that this is it.

i have to sell the 747 or trade it in for a 737 for the front but that is just processing the incoming signal which is a bad idea.

i have to return the M3000 for an RME or Apogee if sweetwater will still take it back

i have to buy SAW and set it up and learn it. this would be fun i think

i have to buy alot of plugs, install my WAVES stuff etc?? and re learn those sounds.

so you see, for me this is a huge move coming after 2 years of frustration.

i have finished all of 4 songs in 2 years cause i have spent so much time with the 2480 set up then the MAC/Cubase set up and then back to the 2480 and outboard stuff, manuals, forums, training, stuff that doesn't sork together, stuff that doesn't sound good, and more than anything my limitations and limited knowledge

one thing is for sure, it KILLED the creative process for me.

oh sorry about the long post again, i just looked up, man do i need therapy or what??

it was when steinberg tech support kept me on hold for 4 hours once and then couldn't find my account that put me over the edge

[tomasino]

For recording IN (just me, the way I work it),

I've settled on using Tube Mics (e.g. GT-1a), Tube PreAmp/Limiter (ART) and maybe a little verb (Lexican), n' a little Mackie mixer pre.
N' then do ALL the rest in SawStudio. Basically, use the tube stuff to warm up the signal going in..

I'm considering bypassing the mixer all together (haven't tried it yet, but I keep threatening to do it).

Just wait, the more you use SawStudio, the more you'll use SawStudio (I'm a freakin' poet sometimes, that was deep )

[Sam C]

i understand the frustration we home hobbyist have. fwiw, i decided awhile back to let my ear be the judge instead of 8 other opinions. even though a few of those 8 opinions probably have a better ear than me!

i have a very simple set-up now and in a few short weeks my results are the best they have been. i would like to have the money back that i spent but i guess it was part of my learning process.

an example would be i downlaoded the free sir convolution reverb, and a few free impulses. they actually sound every bit as good, if not better, than my $600 WAVES IR 1.

less is better.

[spiritman]

You can route SAWStudio's channel strip and plugin effects direct to the disk as you record... but why?

No difference really... in the end... you now get stuck with processed signals that most likely will require more processing to sit correctly in the final mix... why limit your options...

Outside of a little signal compression BEFORE the signal actually gets to the soundcard (with external hardware), I really see no advantage to processing on the way to the disk... process aftward and you have not locked yourself into anything to start with.

I disagree with the need for Lexicon and other outboard reverbs... many plugs have done a great job and I still find my simple SAWStudio Reverb plug to be all I really use most of the time... I have yet to hear any lacking in the tone or smoothness of the reverb trails even under the most detailed listening on some of the smooth jazz projects like the Steven Lee Group CD... but, of course, all that is still a matter of personal preference... but the freedom the virtual reverb gives me in handling the entire project and being able to bring up the session months later and make an adjustment and still get an exact reverb trail that was in the original mix is something there is no way I can give up just for a slightly different reverb signal from my expensive hardware verbs, which in the final mix no one can really hear the difference anyway.

Adding my echo plug in front of the reverb for a little controlled pre-delay, and following the reverb with my eq plug to adjust the tone for each specific session, and using the HD chambers is all I have found I need to create any kind of ambience in any kind of project I do.

Just my opinion.

Bob L

Bob remember when you told me this years ago? Well I wish I would have be smart enough to hear you.. It would have saved me time and money!