High sampling rate converters.

[SoundSuite]

Ok, so, I know this is mostly a purely subjective topic.
Let me please preface with that.

Mainly, I track rock bands and need 16minimum to 24channels i/o.
The RME HDSP9652 will be the card and could easily handle 3x ada-8000's for 24 inputs at 24/48.
I was planning the ADA-8000's for the first 16 channels, but I'm really looking at something 'crazy' for the 3rd ADAT i/o. Something really nice for natural / full sounding accoustic guitars and / or singers, or maybe a set of room mics on drums...anyway, I salivate...err, digress
I'm thinking a 4channel 24/96 or a 2channel 24/192 converter for adat3 (or is 32/96 available?)

Assuming this setup, Question #1 is:
What would be a nice 4channel 24/96 or a 2channel 24/192 converter for my adat3?
Of course, the RME ADI-2 (http://www.rme-audio.com/english/adi/adi2.htm) looks real tasty and has a reasonable cost by comparison to some others out there at $640 from AMS.
***sidebar, I assume, the ADI-2 takes up a full 8ch ADAT i/o at 24/192?***

Here's the can of worms, subjectively speaking or technically speaking. Recording the sources given above, would 192k vs 96k be even worth it.
I've always stayed 16/44.1, but it's time for the upgrade, sooooo.
I have no way to listen test or try a bunch of different i/o before I buy them so I'm really looking for any pointers whatsoever to help me make what I'd call a blind purchase.

The above the main topic and usage in my recording...what to get on the 3rd i/o.
The below is not needed, but since it kinda relates to which i/o I need to get, and since I am in the planning stage, per se, I figure I'll keep it here in this thread. (the only thing that is for sure is the HDSP9652 for whatever i/o to hook into)

Again, just to recant, I do recordings of bands, 24/48 will be fine for me, especially since I stay at 16/44.1 thruout now.
However, I love to 'mess' with video, and one of my dreams is to do some 5:1 mixes for some videos.
For me to be able to dive in blindly to a dvd multi-channel project, I assume I'll then 'need' 24/96 converters and 6x channels of them, one for each speaker in 5:1.
?correct, or am I missing a simple in SAW gig here that I can achieve with 24/48 converters instead?

If I need 24/96 or bettter on each channel to possibly do a 5:1 DVD, just in case I ever do go there (which I want to eventually), then this leads me to think I need to just get 1x ada-8000 and 2x 24/96 units with 4ch on each.
This would allow me 16(8+4+4)channels at 24/48 or 8(4+4) at 24/96 for 5:1(+8 on ada-8000 not used)

Question #2:
If I ever want to do a 5:1 DVD, I'll need 24/96 converters, correct or no?

For either question, and ultimately the only 'real', non-subjective, non-can of worms question that can be answered in this post is...
I'm having issues finding a 4channel 24/96 unit to compare to the above mentioned RME ADI-2, can someone point me?

[TotalSonic]

If you're looking for a what is to my ear a big step up in terms of sound quality from the RME stuff but still with reasonable cost I'd check out the Mytek 896 AD with the optional ADAT output card - http://www.mytekdigital.com/8x96.htm - or the Apogee AD-16X. Both these will give you 8 channels of excellent sound AD with output to lightpipe - which one is "better" is a matter of taste.
I just upgraded to the Lavry Blue for DA but kept my Mytek Stereo96AD for my mastering work as I really find it gives a tremendous bang for the buck

I think a really great article to read as to why 192kHz might actually give no gains whatsoever (and even in some cases will be inferior) in terms of sound quality in comparison to 96kHz can be read at http://www.lavryengineering.com/docu...ing_Theory.pdf

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[canipus]

I think a really great article to read as to why 192kHz might actually give no gains whatsoever (and even in some cases will be inferior) in terms of sound quality in comparison to 96kHz can be read at http://www.lavryengineering.com/docu...ing_Theory.pdf

Best regards,
Steve Berson

And you may want to bear in mind that there are many sound and mastering engineers with over 40 years experience in audio from Bob Katz and down that disagree with Lavry. I include myself in the dissension group. Lavry's paper is not incorrect. We merely postulate that there are other reasons for adopting high sample rates and those reasons have been well explained many times. Lavry has consistently refused to take up the challenge of conducting laboratory controlled listening tests with high sample rate converters. And Lavry's claim that the higher sampling rate converters increase errors is just absolutely plain wrong. It used to be true but high accuracy 10MHz a-d converters are a piece of cake for specialist semiconductor manufacturers. The military and space markets demanded high accuracy converters at high sampling rates in the early 1990's The know how and technologies from those developments have been fed into the commercial converter product base. The same is true of controlling parasitic capicitances on the die. These also used to create errors but now these parasitics are controlled thanks to the improvements in CAD across the entire technology platform for bipolar, cmos and bi-cmos design.

[SoundSuite]

Thanks for the leads Steve, the Mytek 8ch giggers are a bit out of reach finacially.
Do the stereo ones just use AES or are there ADAT ones too and I just didn't see them on the site?

The set of Apogee converters I did hear was granted about 3 years ago and on a PT system, but I didn't like thier 'character'. The advertised transparency and lack of coloration on the Mytek's excites me, but the price takes that dream away quickly, lol.
Are the Apogee's less colorful now?

canipus, instead of posting a reply to say someone is wrong and yet still not answer the topic question, can you please use your knowledge in this area to help answer the 'real' question(s) at the same time as getting techie and downing someone?
I do want 'everyones' opinions, yours included, but I'd really like to get some part numbers or names to go by, not just that Lavry is wrong in this particular paper.
I'll translate your reply into you are one to like >24/96 recording.
Which converters would you recommend?

Of course, the reasons why the earth turns, which CAD designer to thank for it all and the rest of the other good stuff to read so I can make my own desicions a little 'better' is icing on the cake.

[Yura]

Canipus, I guess you will reply to this. Just dont waste your time. you will be probably wrong again anyway. better answer to my PM

[TotalSonic]

And you may want to bear in mind that there are many sound and mastering engineers with over 40 years experience in audio from Bob Katz and down that disagree with Lavry.

Hi Canipus -
You bring up a good point in that Dan's paper is not the end all and be all of this debate. I find that Dan Lavry's products sound extraordinarily great so I tend to heed what he has to say but that doesn't mean that his view points shouldn't be questioned.

Regarding Bob Katz's opinion - I've read quite a bit of his recent opinions on the recforums.prosoundweb.com forums and have not seen this type of dissension from Dan's view point - if you could direct me to quotes of his within the past year (as he has definitely revised a number of opinions from the published text of his book as technology has improved and more information has been disseminated) I'd be grateful to check them out. fwiw - I've done a little bit of work from premasters created by Bob K for transfers to vinyl master and he delivered digital files to me to work from at 24bit/96kHz - not at 192kHz.

Ultimately questions of sampling theory for the audio world can be very quickly resolved by just listening - as after all a white paper doesn't mean anything by itself - but how something sounds does! - but unfortunately I do not have direct experience with the same recordings created at 96kHz and 192kHz to do a/b comparisons to have formed a conclusive opinion of my own.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[TotalSonic]

Thanks for the leads Steve, the Mytek 8ch giggers are a bit out of reach finacially.
Do the stereo ones just use AES or are there ADAT ones too and I just didn't see them on the site?

The Stereo96 units have both AES and spdif outputs - if you just sent this to a spif in on your sound card or if you had a converter for spdif coax to 2 channel lightpipe I guess that could possibly help you out. I don't know your budget but they go for around $925 street price. Sometimes if you want "magic" it costs a little bit!

The set of Apogee converters I did hear was granted about 3 years ago and on a PT system, but I didn't like thier 'character'. The advertised transparency and lack of coloration on the Mytek's excites me, but the price takes that dream away quickly, lol.
Are the Apogee's less colorful now?

I did an a/b between the Mytek Stereo96 and the older Apogee PSX-100 and the Mytek sounded just a definitely noticeable bit more like the source to me than the Apogees did. The Myteks are definitely very transparent to my ear and I really don't think you could do much better for that price range. I haven't heard the Apogee AD-16X in person but they seem to be getting rave reviews from people who have previously not been fans from the Apogee products.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[canipus]

Which converters would you recommend?

Well I would have replied but you didn't include a budget figure so wasn't sure whether we would be suggesting something impractical.
Your response to Steven was his suggestion was more than you wanted to spend. Right?
The ADA8000 is very good for the price and is hard to beat that much technology (channel wise) for what they're charging. But I see you're looking for something that is going to give you an edge with acoustic instruments. Well of course the mic is a significant player but you know that so we will assume fantastic guitar, fantastic open response mic and you need a converter that will just blow you away with the mic and guitar.
I would look at Lynx Studio equipment. It's not budget but remember this. When you purchase Lynx engineering you get at least double the value in the quality stakes. So for every dollar you spend on a Lynx product you could probably spend double that on a similar product to arrive at the same quality.
I'm using the double factor as a broad yardstick just to make a point. In reality there are some aspects of the Lynx converters that you won't even see on a product costing 3 times the price. It's hard to believe but I promise you its absolutely true. I could bore you with the techno mumbo jumbo and the science but you don't want that and I don't have the time. Do yourself a big favor and see if there is something in their product range that does what you want in or near your budget. If there is you won't regret it. I know folks who have had to sell 90% of their studio (in hard times) but hung on to their Lynx equipment like grim death. There is not one duff product or performance spec in their whole range.
Their old Lynx 1 cards ( 8 year old technology) are still used throughout the world as a basic mastering card in countless studios. For what you get their stuff is a steal (think SAW Studio).
If you're wondering, I put my money where my mouth is. I use a Lynx I and a Lynx 2 and I could have spent my money on much more expensive converters. I use reference factory matched / phase calibrated stereo mics (six times the cost of the Lynx equipment), so if I had felt the converters were an issue I would have put some money into something a little better on the converter side). I give Lynx a total endorsement: component choice, design engineering, productisation, manufacturing, QA, and SOUND.
A final point: when changing sampling rate using a Lynx product the low pass band filtering is more optimised for each rate. With many other manufacturers the filter changes to accomodate the sampling rate but in reality their filters are only OPTIMISED for a specific frequency. There is a big difference between a filter that 'works' at x and one that is 'optimised' at x. That's one of the features you normally pay big bucks for. The only problem (if you can call it a problem), is their product range is very small. It takes them over a year just to design a product and then another long period to test it. They don't churn this stuff out but that's the price you pay for putting the engineering first.

that's my input FWIW.

[TotalSonic]

Question #2:
If I ever want to do a 5:1 DVD, I'll need 24/96 converters, correct or no?

Most surround DVD-V is being delivered at 24bit/48kHz. 24bit/96kHz 5.1 is typical for DVD-A but consumer acceptance has been pretty slow for this format and I really don't expect it to pick up much beyond the audiophile crowd.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[SoundSuite]

canipus, thanks!
That is what I wanted to 'hear'.
veeger needs input.

fwiw, I'm thinking in the $1000-$1500 range for the 'crazy' i/o...preferred below ($500-$1000), of course, but it just doesn't look like it'll happen so far.

I'm not against seeing gear that costs too much for me to ever afford.
It still gives a reference to what I can, for comparison.
One has to dream afterall...when I wake up, it can be saved for if needed.