Value of an Expensive Preamp in the recording process

[Jeff Scott]

Hey folks...looking for the wisdom of experience. Now that I've got a few sessions under my belt (I'm mostly a Live audio guy..)....I'm considering expanding my inventory of Mic's and/ or Preamps in order to have more options in the Studio.

My question is this..is there any value in investing in a Mic Pre-amp...expensive or otherwise...when I end up running out of that expensive preamp into my Behringer ADA preamp / SAWStudio interface? Is there any value in having that expensive preamp if the final A/D conversion is a "lower quality" interface? Does the final link in the chain determine the quality of signal shaping ? And if that's the case....why bother invest in an "expensive" or "Boutique" preamp to begin with? Shouldn't we be pouring our dollars in the every portion of the signal chain?

Do the Hi- end studio's just use dedicated Analog/ Digital convertor's in front of their Preamps? Do the higher end preamps come with Digital /spdif/ adat outputs?in addition to the analog outs thereby handling the conversion process in situ?

Must sound like a complete Newbie ....(probably am compared to most on the SAWStudio forum....lol)

[Grekim]

It makes sense to have high quality first in the signal chain, which of course would be the mic itself. But, a good preamp and a budget a/d should sound better than a budget preamp and a high end a/d. The analogy would be a trying to take a picture using a bad lense but high resolution film versus a good lense and average film. It makes no sense to capture something accurately if it's not a great sound or image to begin with. Preamps are important because they do the heavy lifting and are early in the chain. Hope that helps.
That said, there's an awful lot of hype and talk in general about preamps. So, try just one or two channels before you make a big investment.

[Adam Christopher]

My main man, Jeff! How's it going buddy? Glad to see your live rig is up and running and you are having a blast with the excellent Studio Devil VBA.

My question is this..is there any value in investing in a Mic Pre-amp...expensive or otherwise...when I end up running out of that expensive preamp into my Behringer ADA preamp / SAWStudio interface? Is there any value in having that expensive preamp if the final A/D conversion is a "lower quality" interface? Does the final link in the chain determine the quality of signal shaping ? And if that's the case....why bother invest in an "expensive" or "Boutique" preamp to begin with? Shouldn't we be pouring our dollars in the every portion of the signal chain?

Do the Hi- end studio's just use dedicated Analog/ Digital convertor's in front of their Preamps? Do the higher end preamps come with Digital /spdif/ adat outputs?in addition to the analog outs thereby handling the conversion process in situ?

There is value in getter a better preamp but it will be hindered by the conversion. By the way, I hear the new Behringer units have decent converters for budget units so if you are going to stick with that unit, I wouldn't go with a discrete converter until you are willing to get at least a Lynx card (run you between 700-800).

If you are asking about what do top mixers use - then yes they use dedicated analog/digital converters. The recording and mixing is a separate process and often done with producer/mixing engineer teams where the converters come into play more when mixing. Yes, in that world, they all use outboard converters. They have the budget to buy anything on the planet (and often will use but not own the equipment as many mixers are uses rented space - Larrabee is a good example of this) but more expensive in converters doesn't necessarily mean better. They all have slightly different vibes like a Mytek might sound warmer and a Lavry might sound more detailed. A lot comes down to taste. We're talking the $2,500 to $10,000 converter range from anything from Mytek to Lavry to Apogee (CLA and Ben Grosse have used these) even newer boutique alternatives (Black Lion that Tony Masrati uses).

With legendary pres like the Neve 1073 or API 512 you got what you pay for. Not necessarily the case with converters. After you have very good to excellent converters (think Steinberg MR816 or UR824), you are talking diminishing returns for thousands of dollars worth of converters.

Your question is an excellent one and something I've deliberated greatly since I've gotten into recording. I'll address this one by giving a quick run down on ones I've come across - mostly low and mid range in both integrated and dedicated units - and a few select higher end ones.

I will tell you off the bat that unequivocally, I find the Yamaha Dpres/Converters on my Steinberg interfaces to be by far the best price/performance in terms of sonic quality. Drivers are a different issue to be addressed but in that one aspect, I strongly prefer it. My main criteria are looking for a clean sounding pre that doesn't overaccentuate certain frequencies but doesn't sound sterile or clinical either. For universal recording purposes, I like clean with a touch of character. To me, sterile and clinical is bad. It robs the performer of an inspiring representation after a great performance.

Integrated pres:

1 Yamaha Dpres on Steinberg UR/MR series - very clean but have some character. They sound lovely and musical without leaving too much of an imprint on the original soundsource.
2 RME Babyface - Pretty clean pres. They don't sound clinical like a lot of integated pres but I feel like the Yamaha pres are a step up. The Yamahas in my opinion have "that something".
3 Mackie Onyx preamps - Very clean and nice sounding pres but not quite as musical as the Yamaha pres
4 Focusrite Saffire - These are pretty good for budget pres but they don't sound quite as clean as the above options. The dedicated Focusrite pres seem to me much better than these imo and I think the dedicated Focusrites are the best bang for the buck in that category. You will need to research which line you are buying because some Focusrite pres have problems with clipping on guitar sources.
5TC Electronic Konnekt - Clean sounding a bit less musical than a few of the above options but will get the job done. Not much headroom when driving the phantom power on vocals. Watch out for clipping on some sources.
6 Native Instruments Komplete 6 Audio - Clean sounding but somewhat sterile. Not much headroom at all.
7 Echo AudioFire - Somewhat clean but sounds less musical than the above options and can be a bit clinical.
8 M Audio various- Not a huge fan. I wish I could say more except I feel like they are meh. Not the cleanest. Sources I've heard recorded them sound duller and flatter, less life.

I have not tried Behringer to give an honest assessment. I have limited experience with Apogee and find their pres/converters to be excellent for the price, maybe somewhere at the top of that list but not as good as the Steinberg/Yamaha combo.


Integrated converters:

1 Yamaha Dpres on Steinberg UR/MR series - Clean and very musical, a bit warm and not 100% neautral - the UR824 and MR816 have been compared to Lynx, Mytek, Lavry etc... and in many cases people preferred the Yamaha converters. In this price range... Wow....
2 RME Babyface - You just can't go wrong with RME converters. They aren't the most high end when compared to Lavry or Mytek but they are reliable and won't keep you from making great sounding recordings at a professional level
3 Native Instruments Komplete 6 Audio - uses the latest Cirrus Logic chips surprisingly good, musical, clean, and detailed but they might have skimped a bit on the jitter handling. Still amazing converter quality for a cheapo unit
4 TC Electronic Konnekt - These converters are better than most of the options below. Pretty clean sound. Fairly detailed but the above options I believe are higher end.
5 Focusrite Saffire - pretty good for budget package but not quite as clean as the above options.
6 Mackie Onyx - Depends on what model. I think the higher end models handle jitter better and the new Onyx converters are much better than they had been in the past. They switched from Cirrus Logic from AKM after they stopped outsourcing from Echo.
7 Echo Audiofire - At one point, Echo was the best bang for the buck. The Layla and Gina converters were one "good enough" for good recordings where budget interfaces came stock with great. Manufacturers have been able to produce higher quality chips at lower cost and the cheapo Native Instruments Komplete equipped with Cirrus Logic is a great example. Echo units are no longer the best bang for the buck and have fallen behind imo
8 M Audio converters - Another big meh....

I don't believe in buying discrete converters though until you can afford Lynx. An AES16 PCI express card will run you between 700 and 800 and then you will have to deal with the breakout cables. RME discrete might be an ok and more affordable option but in most cases not such a dramatic step up from a good integrated comparison. For comparison, I like the Steinberg MR816 converters better than any discrete RME converters I've checked out if that tells you anything. Some people will even prefer the MR816 converters to Lynx Aurora but that is a more fair comparison. I'm probably going to get roasted for saying that the MR816 converters are better than the RME, given their loyal fanbase but RME imo is more reliable, has better support and customer service, but does not imo sound better.

Dedicated
1BAE 1073 - Wow.... Don't know how close this is to a Neve 1073 but tons of character and detail and can be used on almost any source even though it is very warm and not at all neutral sounding. Good luck affording this on a budget. The Golden Age Neve clone attempt is not even close even after mods. I think the BAE is also a huge step up from Vintech attempts. Would be nice though to check out what Chameleon Labs has done.
2 Focusrite ISA - IMO the best bang for the buck dedicated pre. Looks very old school with the blue/yellow lunchbox thing going but it is somehow clean, warm, sparkly and detailed sounding at the same time. Extremely versatile and a huge step up from most options. I still think the Yamaha D pres on Steinberg units compare well though and the Yamahas are my go to. But you can't go wrong with the ISA.
3 Black Lion Auter - Another bang for the buck winner. Here in Chi town they are making a big name for themselves..... They are very detailed and "expensive" sounding in their price range but they are not at all neutral sounding. They are warm and punchy with the low mids accentuated a bit. I think they are a great add if you are looking for a character pre with a vibe but I wouldn't want to use this as my one and only for tracking everything through.
4 Golden Age Pre - I really don't have the hands on experience but I've seen one before and heard enough through it to know it's not the real deal. Not what I would get for a one and only but maybe an option as a cheap add for a charater pre with a Neve-type vibe.

If you're looking for 8 pres, again I highly recommend the Steinberg units with the Yamaha pres for sheer sound quality or .....maybe a Focusrite Octo pre. Those are very high quality too.

If you are talking super high end, the BAE is that. The Neve 1073 has been on practically every source from vocals, guitars, bass, drums on all styles from metal, rock, funk to jazz. I say get some Yamaha d pres for versatility. After you have a versatile clean amp a Neve 1073 type pre might be all you ever need for a pre. Although I think Quad Eight/Pacifica are amazing for vocals and drums. They have a sweet presence. API 512 is also really nice. It's a bit of the antithesis to the Neve 1073. It's got a more "in your face" high mids rock sound. Another versatile all arounder.

By the way, some of these models are USB units including the UR series (not MR series which is Firewire) . And I've found latency to be a problem with USB units. That might factor into your decision.

Steinberg just launched in January a $150 version of the UR series UR22 with the sweet Yamaha D pres. The hi z on my UR28m is lousy so you'll want to find a high quality di for direct guitar/bass recording.

Also, the converters on all Steinberg UR/MR are excellent but the converters on my MR816 are better than the UR28m. Expect a step down in conversion and about the same as the ur28m as compared to the higher end UR and MR series. They are supposed to mostly the same but the MR816 and UR824 have better jitter handling and that makes a difference.

Still I think the UR28m is capable of pro recordings with the conversion quality as is which is still better than almost all the budget alternatives even the converters are are not as good as the higher end Steinberg units that have sophisticated jitter handling. I don't know how good the ur22 but I expect similar performance to my UR28m, which at $330 I paid, is unbelievable quality with the pres and conversion. I just wish they didn't have the annoying latency. The UR22m actually has a higher sampling rate than the ur28m ironically but I don't believe is packaged with the same level of addons (virtual channel strip reverb) and has one headphone input instead of two and less controls. If you had a way to connect with breakout cables to a high quality converter, it would be worth it for the pres alone. I'm no expert on setups, but thats my take in the budget realm.

Yes quality in pres and converters make the difference. If I have to pick which is more important, I say pres first. You can usually upgrade to outboard converters if you really want to but you might eventually outgrow pres that don't excite you and if you are buying now, I wouldn't settle on ok. Personally, I am happy with my Steinberg/Yamaha D pres and feel like my search for great pres I can afford is over. I can't say they are the most reliable units in terms of drivers/support and latency but judging on sound quality for me no contest. I also can get Neve/Quad Eight/API vibe with my Nebula sampler (only cost me $35), which gives me the harmonic distortion, color and vibe of those preamps and paired with my clean Yamaha d pres, I am in heaven! It's amazing how Nebula flies under the radar but after Saw, I feel like it's the best thing ever in the recording world. You can't use Nebula live because of latency but it's amazingly realistic. The quality of the eqs and pres are about 10x better than all other plugins because they are sampled dynamic snapshots (not to be confused with impulse responses which sound flat and lifeless in comparision). If you get a nice clean pre, you can use Nebula for coloring.

In today's age, Jeff, you have the freedom of many worthy options that weren't available before so you'll find what's best for you. I hope this post helped because I went through exhaustive research, trial and error before being truly happy with what I have. These are only my opinions so take it for whatever it's worth.


Good luck!

[ronmac]

If you have a few hours to read/listen to the recent SOS magazine mic pre shoot out you may find the answer to your question. It should at least give you some comfort in knowing that your entire career does not hinge around using one particular pre for a certain source.

The performance of the artist is always the most important component in any recording, IMO.

[Sean McCoy]

I agree with Grekim. No part of the recording chain is unimportant, but in my experience the level of critical drops off sharply from mic to ADC. Good and varied mics (i.e., the right mic) will have the most influence over what you can do. With the right mic, any clean preamp will serve you well. That said, "character" preamps will give you many new sonic options when paired with different mics, usually subtle but occasionally radical. Once you've got a good mic/preamp combo, only a really lousy converter will undo that good. Higher quality converters will capture the good a little more faithfully and with better headroom, and some even impart a bit of their own sonic vibe. But in general, unless money is no object, put your stock in mics first, then pricey boutique preamps, then overhyped converters. I've been doing this long enough now to have spent way too much money in all three areas.

[Jeff Scott]

WOW..great responses people! Just had time for a quick read thru and am going to have to back up and absorb it all. I'll be back in a day or two with further questions...believe you me!

Yes Adam..loving the Studio Bass Devil. The Deep Tube DI setting just kills it! Incredible tone.

[Richard Rupert]

It makes sense to have high quality first in the signal chain, which of course would be the mic itself. But, a good preamp and a budget a/d should sound better than a budget preamp and a high end a/d. The analogy would be a trying to take a picture using a bad lense but high resolution film versus a good lense and average film. It makes no sense to capture something accurately if it's not a great sound or image to begin with. Preamps are important because they do the heavy lifting and are early in the chain. Hope that helps.
That said, there's an awful lot of hype and talk in general about preamps. So, try just one or two channels before you make a big investment.

+1. Right on the money!

[AcousticGlue]

I think the most important thing is to get the sound right before importing. I have done some recordings on my Layla24 that left me knowing that the converters were great. The song Walking In Eden which is under Acousticglue on Reverbnation sounds very good for the level of talent playing it. I dont think you can beat the sound. The guitar was a patch called Toy Guitar used from a VG8EX for rhythm and a Godin was used to record with. Behringer tube pres were used for vocals. So its not always about the almighty dollar but the tools used in the recording. There is another track that was all guitar called Blue Fusion on the page that was done in a hotter vein stillusing VG8EX at the time. That recording was done in 1999, Eden was done in 2007

[tomasino]

... tube pres...

+1 for all the input so far.

Would only like to put further emphasize on TUBES.
Whatever you get, make sure it has a tube.

[CurtZHP]

I'm reminded of a preamp shootout I participated in with a number of other engineers of varying experience.

One veteran engineer (40+ years) said of the comparison between a Focusrite preamp costing thousands of dollars and the preamps in a Mackie 1202:

"I hear a difference between them, but I don't hear thousands of dollars worth of difference."