Scene Recall of Group Latch Output Faders

[RBIngraham]

I think I may have asked this before but just in case, is it expected behavior that when you recall a scene that targets the faders of a Group Latch Output that the input faders that are assigned to that Group Latch Output do not also move? This seems odd to me, but maybe I am missing something?

I was hoping that I could write some scenes to recall these and the Input faders would just track along, but that is not the case. What happens is that only the Group Latch faders move, which means the level changes I expected didn't happen and worse yet the relative balance between the input faders and the Group Latch were now out of balance.

To me it seems like whatever would happen when I grab the fader by hand on the screen is what should happen when I recall their level via a scene.

Or am I missing something?

[Bob L]

Make sure to select both the input fader and out fader options in the scene properties... they both need to be green... also make sure all chans you want to be affected are also selected... that means both the out group latch chan as well as the input chans involved with that latch.

Bob L

[RBIngraham]

Make sure to select both the input fader and out fader options in the scene properties... they both need to be green... also make sure all chans you want to be affected are also selected... that means both the out group latch chan as well as the input chans involved with that latch.

Bob L

That is what I ended up doing for some of the Scenes. But that still seems to me like it doesn't work properly. If I do as you suggest and I make a small tweak to my mix on any of the input faders, when I recall the next scene, then that small tweak is now gone. I want to be able to make tweaks to the balance on the input faders. And then when the group latch goes up 5 db in the next scene... all the input faders just go up 5 db from their current location. If I record all the input faders into the scenes as well, if the sound op adjusts any of those input faders to account for nightly changes in performances, they have to redo those adjustments for every scene. That doesn't really work on a show with 30+ songs and some of those have 3 or 4 scenes each.

[Bob L]

Well... obviously the scene recalls the exact fader positions...

What would be needed is a scene option that recalls relative fader changes... that is an idea on the list, but not sure how that would end up being worked into the code.

So... you could use real group control... not group latch control... then you would only have to adjust the master group fader and all input chans would be pre-mixed and fed to that group independent of the group fader... just like an old analog console group function.

Bob L

[glass50]

Am not sure I know, but in my limited experience with scenes, it takes both a "Cntl S" and update scene to save small changes like fader tweaks. Am not sure of proper order of things. Also rarely use groups.

[RBIngraham]

Well... obviously the scene recalls the exact fader positions...

What would be needed is a scene option that recalls relative fader changes... that is an idea on the list, but not sure how that would end up being worked into the code.

So... you could use real group control... not group latch control... then you would only have to adjust the master group fader and all input chans would be pre-mixed and fed to that group independent of the group fader... just like an old analog console group function.

Bob L

I guess I just figure that when a Scene changes a Group Latch Output fader, any input assigned to the Group Latch should also move... just like if I had moved it with a mouse or with a control surface. The Scene Recalls operate differently than any other control method.

I understand that I can use a Submaster type Group. And depending on my needs that is one of my work arounds. But when I have a sound system where 8 mono or stereo outputs are not enough, I have no choice but to split the system feeds across several monitor mixers. When I need to do that I have to go to using Aux Send/Return Channels as submixes because Submaster outputs on FOH can not be tapped onto the Monitor Mixers. This allows me to take a submix and split it out across multiple monitor consoles when I need more than 8 outputs for the main system. But that also means I can then not use Aux Send/Returns for things like reverbs on those channels because one aux can not feed into another aux send.

In an ideal world I just wish there was a mode for outputs 9-24 that mimicked a traditional VCA/DCA Group. Where the input faders didn't move up and down and the Group was a proportional control. Or if we could get the Custom Fader layer that was talked about years back to allow me to cherry pick input and output channels across various mixer layers and see them all at one time and have them on the control surface. Or if we could tab Outputs 9-24 on to the Monitor consoles so the FOH mixer could just operate as a big Submixer allowing the Monitor Consoles to operate just as a Matrix Output system. (which they can do now of course... sort of...but there are limits and drawbacks) Any of those options would make this all a moot point and make SAC a lot more theatre mixing friendly. But I know this is a dead horse subject...

I'm really open to any possible fixes here. Whichever is easiest. Maybe if I have a chance this week I'll give you a ring and talk through where I see the stumbling blocks and maybe there are other ways around it.

[RBIngraham]

Am not sure I know, but in my limited experience with scenes, it takes both a "Cntl S" and update scene to save small changes like fader tweaks. Am not sure of proper order of things. Also rarely use groups.

When you update a Scene file it is instantly updated. Each Scene is a separate file on your hard drive and updating them is not tied in any way to Saving your SAC Mix file, other than the Mix file saves a list of Scene files that are part of that Mix Session and what order they go in.

But I am not talking about updating Scenes here. We don't want to update the scenes. What I am trying to do is record into Scenes Master mix levels for multiple Inputs. These get recalled during a show. The Master faders appear on the control surface so my operator (the person mixing the show every night) can grab those master and ride them as needed to swell up and down, match the audience, the performance that night, etc... But they should also be able to grab say for sake of example the Input Fader on Keyboard 1 and take it up or down because that player is playing a little harder or softer this performance (or maybe it's a substitute player that day) and then that has to "track" through the rest of the show, proportionally in regards to those master levels that are going up and down on a scene by scene basis and as my operator rides them up and down by hand. Then when we come in the next day (or later the same day when we have doubles) and we load the show again, it should all be back to the "baseline" we recorded during rehearsals.

Hope that all makes at least some sense.

[TomyN]

Because the situations described affect monitors and all outputs, I'd try to solve the problem by readjusting either the preamp gain or the attentuater.

[Bob L]

Richard... it gets complicated... the scene properties tell the scene what to recall and what to ignore... if the input chan faders are not selected they are ignored... if selected, they will set to the value they were when the scene was saved... there is no easy way to change that and still maintain any consistency to the process.

I think the relative value idea will be the best solution for that situation.

Bob L