50% load

[Brent Evans]

Again, nobody is disputing that it runs best on XP. My system is XP, and I live withthe networking difficulties that come along with that. What we resent is that you insult our intelligence by telling us that the OS changes makew efficient live audio routing impossible. There are several programs out there which can do live realtime audio mixing just like SAC, and one program that IS A DIRECT COMPETITOR to SAC nearing release which all run just fine on newer OSes.

Have you ever considered what the implications of all this are? The current recipe for a good SAC system is to find an out of date or used machine, load it with an unobtainable OS, hope that it all wotks well together because there's no support, then make a choice between doing it again for all the remotes,or live with file sharing difficulties. Oh and by the way, if you want a control surface, youre limited to one outddated product with very limited support.

I love the product and what it can do, but honestly, if i was deciding today rather than five years or so ago, I wouldnt buy in. There's too much uncertainty, and you are very clearly unwilling to work on making the product future proof. A product that has a performance hit on new OSes does not perform properly. The fact that by your own very casual admission that you dont know why that performance hit happens is very troubling. Regardless of how slighted you feel by Microsoft, and how much it isnt your fault, it IS your responsibility to figure out what changed and what you have to do to make your priduct work properly.

If you're not going to do that (or can't do that) dont whine and piss and moan and blame Microsoft. State simply that SAC is supported on XP and that there will be no development for other OSes and be a man and put it on the sales page in bold print. When the topic comes up, simply present it as a business decision. Its that simple.

And, if you dont mind, would you post a single example where SAC ever replaced "hundreds of thousants of dollars" of equipment?

[mr_es335]

Hello,

I do wish that posts that have a tendency to "go south" would indeed " to that route"...

So, with this in mind, can we start a new post about the 'pros and cons" of WINXP?

[Bob L]

Brent,

You should be using the new SAC replacement software that you are so excited about if it does things the way you feel they should be done... and then don't worry about SAC's future... use Win 7 or 8 or 10 or 50 or whatever version comes in the future regardless of how well it works... I've seen the various SAC replacement options that people tout about and if they work for your needs... great... they are certainly not even close to replacing what SAC and SAWStudio do for my needs and likes.

And, if you dont mind, would you post a single example where SAC ever replaced "hundreds of thousants of dollars" of equipment?

SAC just replaced the Yamaha 1D (originally about $160,000 - now around $50,000 - $60,000 used and more depending on the configuration) on the Elton John tour for doing stage monitors... and we are now doing 12 or 13 mixes... stereo in-ear (each with its own full console setup) as well as band wedges and Elton's wedges... again on his own console with full eq, dynmics and aux sends

It is also handling the recording and archiving (with SAWStudio and the Link on the same system) of every show (about 62 tracks plus ~150,000 midi events, over 80 tracks here in Vegas using a master-slave configuration)... how much is a 62 (or 80+) track ProTools rig plus all the hardware and cabling that goes with it...

I'd say that's an honest $200,000 total easily... and we are saving them around 2500 lbs of shipping for every stop on the tour (many by air)... that is quite a savings... and no... I know of no other compliment of consoles and hardware/software that can do what our setup is doing for anywhere near the same price and with anywhere near the same footprint.

When I make statements about how much equipment SAC replaces there is no exaggeration... I fully use the concept of the multiple mixing consoles and the power of that feature to handle my current stage mixes and that would truly require individual mixers and massive amounts of cabling and splitting to duplicate in a similar manner... sure you could use a mono aux send or even stereo auxes on some of the consoles, but most consoles do not have enough outputs to generally match what a typical SAC system can do... and certainly not at the X32 or LS9 etc. level that people try to argue are the same as SAC. I am talking about substituting for Venue and Digico consoles, and handling FOH and Monitors with one rig that immediately replaces at least two, and that still is not the same as having separate consoles for each monitor mix.

The point is... all these concerns about future Windows versions is a complete waste of time... SAC and SAWStudio are doing things like no other system right now... and they will continue to work into the future... perhaps not even using Windows... trust that a lot is going on behind the scenes to keep that future secure.

So, love SAC or hate it... support it or don't... but at least show the respect, courtesy and professionalism to keep the negativity, lack of support and sarcasm (such as in the comment above) out of my forum... take it somewhere else.

Bob L

[Butch Bos]

+1 for Bob
Every time i read about the updates to new digital consoles I just say to myself I can already do that (at least most of the time)
SAC and SAW and for me PC Stage (for lights) all running on the same (Outdated XP) computer all midi'd together does everything I need for any show I do with the exception when a group has their own FOH guy and rider required console choice because he has a show file and knows how to operate it. Even then I have had a few accept SAC as long as I converted their file to SAC
Maybe AA translator should consider a translator between digital consoles
I like working on MOST digital consoles but the only ones I would trade SAC for are to heavy, large and expensive
No one console (hardware or software) is going to make everybody happy just use what works for you and leave it at that.
I even use some tube gear now hows that for outdated It won't work on WIN 7 either

Butch

[mojogil]

It's pretty hard to argue against the power vs cost and footprint that SAC and other similar mixing tools offer. Different strokes for different folks. I like using SAC and AMP. There are always gripes, mine would be the pace at which features and updates are released. Overall SAC has made me money and has been a good return on my investment.

[Brent Evans]

You should be using the new SAC replacement software that you are so excited about if it does things the way you feel they should be done... and then don't worry about SAC's future... use Win 7 or 8 or 10 or 50 or whatever version comes in the future regardless of how well it works... I've seen the various SAC replacement options that people tout about and if they work for your needs... great... they are certainly not even close to replacing what SAC and SAWStudio do for my needs and likes.

Never said I didn't like the product, or that I was switching, Bob. I said that others can do the same thing on a newer OS and not piss and moan about Microsoft... they just make it work.

SAC just replaced the Yamaha 1D (originally about $160,000 - now around $50,000 - $60,000 used and more depending on the configuration) on the Elton John tour for doing stage monitors... and we are now doing 12 or 13 mixes... stereo in-ear (each with its own full console setup) as well as band wedges and Elton's wedges... again on his own console with full eq, dynmics and aux sends

So you replaced a sixteen year old model that was discontinued six years ago with something better... Ok. When have you taken out a Venue or iLive or something like that? It doesn't count to say what they WOULD have done if you hadn't come along. Now if you were TAKING OUT Digicos and such... that would make your claims live up...

It is also handling the recording and archiving (with SAWStudio and the Link on the same system) of every show (about 62 tracks plus ~150,000 midi events, over 80 tracks here in Vegas using a master-slave configuration)... how much is a 62 (or 80+) track ProTools rig plus all the hardware and cabling that goes with it...

I'd say that's an honest $200,000 total easily... and we are saving them around 2500 lbs of shipping for every stop on the tour (many by air)... that is quite a savings... and no... I know of no other compliment of consoles and hardware/software that can do what our setup is doing for anywhere near the same price and with anywhere near the same footprint.

You can record 64 tracks on a Si Performer and stagebox system with two of their madi/USB cards, and I believe also split out to a second unit for FOH. You'd even have a few channels left over for effects if the onboard stuff isn't good enough.... that's in the ~$10k price point and it's not Behringer and it is DARN close to the footprint of a SAC rig. Can it do everything SAC/SAW can? No... but it would work.

The point is... all these concerns about future Windows versions is a complete waste of time... SAC and SAWStudio are doing things like no other system right now... and they will continue to work into the future... perhaps not even using Windows... trust that a lot is going on behind the scenes to keep that future secure.

So, love SAC or hate it... support it or don't... but at least show the respect, courtesy and professionalism to keep the negativity, lack of support and sarcasm (such as in the comment above) out of my forum... take it somewhere else.

Here's the deal - I use and like the product, and I like it better than the other options - I'm one of your supporters, not one of your enemies. I'm not being negative, I'm being real - real concerned about the future of my investment. You say to "trust," but trust is hard when you are constantly saying how hard it is for you to update your products. If my rig breaks tomorrow, I can probably fix it. If it breaks next year... who knows? I'm $10,000 into a SAC system, and I want it to work for a while. The 1d you replaced? 16 years on and 6 years past being replaced with way better stuff... they're still working. I've been through 3 SAC systems in 6 years... the first change was a voluntary upgrade to get more channels... that's cool. The second change was because my computer crashed in the middle of a show from the processor fan being broken... normal wear and tear on a computer. The new one is built better.. lesson learned... but there's ALWAYS something going on with it. Always fixing this or that... and I'm actually OK with that, because of the benefits it gets me. It DOES mean though, that at some point it's going to break in a way that I can't get it running on XP again in a pinch, and that's my problem... it would be nice to know that it would work properly on something newer so I can CONTINUE being a supporter.

So, worrying about Windows versions is NOT a waste of time... it's the future of my business. What about you?

[Wink0r]

@Brent
I built a new system very similar to the on in your sig last year, but with W7 Home Premium. It has worked fine for me with about the same loads that you list. I probably do have it set at 2X32, though.

[Brent Evans]

@Brent
I built a new system very similar to the on in your sig last year, but with W7 Home Premium. It has worked fine for me with about the same loads that you list. I probably do have it set at 2X32, though.

The problem I ran into was that the MOTU hardware I have wouldn't play nice at anything less than 1x128 on win 7, and it was dropping buffers about every five minutes at 1x128. I tweaked that system until it had some stupid low number of processes... it didn't help.

The combination of motherboard, OS, and MOTU drivers just didn't work... but it did on XP. I've built another system for a client that used an off-the shelf Asus PC with Win 7 and MOTU and that was fine after tweaks up to about 24 channels at 1x128, but the point is that running this system on a newer platform is not predictable or reliable. You have to have a custom built tweaked XP system to (more or less) guarantee performance.

I've built more of these systems than most around here... I think the current count is about 6 or 7 not counting my own rig. I've run into most of the bugs and problems and worked around them... fixing stuff doesn't bother me. Being told that I don't matter any more bothers me, and that's what this has become.

[Bob L]

Brent,

MOTU... why not follow my lead and use what I suggest that works... most of those having major issues have been on MOTU and Win 7... I recommend RME all the time... there is a reason for that... and no... I am not affiliated with them directly... their stuff works well and allows me to have SAC systems all over the world that work without all the issues you and others complain about.

I have been clear about how to setup a stable and high performance SAC system for years... those that follow my suggestions have had stable systems up and running for those same years.

You have built 6 or 7... I have built hundreds of systems and most are still somewhere around the world doing live shows on a daily basis.

You keep saying other programs do what SAC does... NOT... sorry... I just don't see it... but you are entitled to your opinions and choices... but even if and when other software solutions will eventually show up... so what... there will then be many choices... pick one... SAC invented the idea... way before the rest of the industry even considered the current trend...

You say you are a supporter... then support me and my efforts and stop running around the internet and the industry with your "Sky Is Falling" messages about my work and its future... you want to insure its future, then stop with the gloom and doom... tell people how amazing it is and how you have been using it and that you can build a system yourself with off-the-shelf parts that easily rivals and replaces high-end systems while it offers more features and better audio quality... get them excited about jumping onboard... you want more updates... help create more sales... more sales means I can hire people to help with the updates...etc... etc... etc.

This is a tough game... especially when depending on a moving target like Windows... you say I'm the only one complaining about Windows... give me a break... read the thousands and thousands and thousands of complaints about Windows all over the internet... many of them are legitimate complaints... my complaints are also very legitimate when it comes to performance issues and core issues and priority issues... the low level programming issues I am complaining about are real... and most other programs don't program at that level so they are not affected... but they are certainly not doing what SAC does...

Anyway... I am so tired of being cornered to always defend... defend... and defend my work... these discussions always lead into a dead end... not interested anymore to participate... either support what I have accomplished or don't... there really is nothing else to say.... I am busy with the next huge update... let me work on it instead of spending my time writing these ridiculous messages... it takes a lot of energy having to duck all these bullets that you and others shoot at me all the time... and now you tell me you are one of my supporters... who would have guessed.

Bob L

[Brent Evans]

At the time I bought in, MOTU was fully supported and recommended by many people. Now it's my fault for buying what was recommended. My first card was RME.. but when I upgraded I couldn't afford two Raydats at the time and I wanted a 64 channel system.

RME was twice as expensive to do less at the time, and I bought what I could afford to do the job. It works quite well.. on XP.

BTW... where have I ever jumped in this before? I wrote your FAQ that's posted in this forum, remember?

Yes, I get it that you've built hundreds of systems to your specifications. You have consistently refused to publish those specifications in the form of current motherboard recommendations, processor recommendations, etc. You'll pseudo-recommend one piece of hardware, then blame a user when they buy what they think will work based upon their interpretation of the book of Bob, and then it doesn't work properly.

The sky is not falling... I haven't put anything like that out there. YOU are the one who said you can't support newer OSes because the OS doesn't play nice with your software. Not supporting new OSes is tantamount to not supporting new hardware. Not supporting new hardware is tantamount to product death. If that's your position, like I said... fine... but just be up front about it. State outright on the sales page what is and is not required and/or supported, and don't lead people on.

How many of those hundreds of systems have legal copies of XP? None in the last few years unless you REALLY stocked up before 2008 (when retail copies were discontinued) or 2010 (when sales of new PCs with OEM XP ended). Sure, you can buy OEM copies, but those aren't legal copies any more because OEM sales ended in 2010, and because you aren't within the EULA as a retail purchaser. Sure, you can pirate it... but that's not my style. I have my one retail copy that I bought for my SAC system, and each of the systems I built have real copies. For you to recommend a new builder put together an XP system today is essentially recommending an illegal act and doing it yourself IS an illegal act if you're doing it with illegal copies of the software.

If you want to know the name of the competitor that's about to come on the market, I could post it, but I didn't think that would be appropriate on YOUR forum(hmm.. respect...). Fact is, it is MORE flexible than SAC in some ways, and not quite as much in others, but it can accomplish the same end result and it does it with lower latency and on current hardware and OSes, and it doesn't require archaic coding to do it. I plan to check it out when it's released (I don't risk shows on betas, not yours or anyone else's). Reports are, though, that the beta is running national level acts with no problems.

"Supporting" something does not always mean being the yes man. Sometimes it means calling out the problems so they can be fixed. There's a lot of groupthink around here about the product (which you'd expect and is somewhat reasonable) and about XP being sustainable (which is ludicrous). We all realize that SAC is your magnum opus of sorts, and that you are sensitive to any criticism that is opposed to your vision of how it should be. I've made a few feature requests over the years, and few if any of them have made it in. That's fine.. no big deal. You sell software, though... and you have to set aside your feelings and be a software company.