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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Default Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Hey guys!

    Man...it's been a long, long time since I have perused the forum. I have been a SAC user for many years (albeit, on somewhat of an audio hiatus for the past year or so), and a SAW *owner* for just as many years. Unfortunately, I discovered early on that my passion for live mixing did NOT cross over into studio recording/mixing. So my SAW icon on my Desktop has collected more dust than my awesome SAC rig. That said...

    I got a call about a month ago from a theatre that wants me to record their performance. They requested 32 channels, but my SAC rig is only 24x24. They said, "We can do this with 24 channels," and have subsequently hired me to record this performance. In preparation, I dusted off the ol' SAC rig, fired her up, plugged in a microphone and speaker, and whatayaknow! She still sounds great! HA!

    The problem...

    Not having ever used SAW, I'm completely unfamiliar with it. And not having used SAC for well over a year, it's clear I'm going to need to play around with it for refamiliarize myself with it. So I have 2 questions:

    1) Because I'm not actually doing any live mixing, do I need to use SAC at all? I assume I can run SAW without SAC, yes? I've just never done it before...which brings me to #2.

    2) Is there a basic SAW tutorial out there somewhere? This website (forum) has changed drastically, so I'm not sure where to look. YouTube and Google searches turned up nothing. A forum search netted a ton of results, but nothing that looked like just a basic "how to get started" tutorial.

    I appreciate any help you guys can give.

    Thanx!

    Donnie Frank
    Last edited by Donnie Frank; 08-21-2017 at 09:38 PM.
    DF

    http://soundaddy.com

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Hey Donnie

    I believe there is a bunch of stuff here that will be helpful

    http://learnsawstudio.com

    You don't have to use SAC to use SAW as a recording interface, but I actually find it easier using SAC as the front end.

    You'd configure SAC pretty much as you would for any live FOH gig, except you really don't need any outputs.

    Link SAW to SAC and import the mix data from SAC to automatically transfer your channel information (Labels, EQ, etc) into Saw Studio

    Make sure that SAC and SAW are set to the same Sample Rate and Resolution

    Arm the record channels and press record.

    Thats most of what you have to do to get your audio to hard disk. The files are all recorded as standard WAV files so your free to mix in what ever DAW software you want.

    Do your post work in SAW or open the files in your DAW of choice (or hand off the files to somebody else for editing).

    If your going to marry up the audio to video, than make sure you record at 48K, NOT 44.1K
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Donnie,

    Nice to hear from you!

    Have a peep at these...SAWStudio Live Sessions

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    Hey Donnie

    I believe there is a bunch of stuff here that will be helpful

    http://learnsawstudio.com



    I found a couple tutorials, but nothing that showed how to use just SAW. This is going to be a super simple recording - just 24 channels dry, post-attenuation - so I would like to use just SAW if possible.



    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    You don't have to use SAC to use SAW as a recording interface, but I actually find it easier using SAC as the front end.
    Why is that? Can you explain why it's easier to use SAC? In my mind, I'm thinking that I want to limit the amount of mistakes I can make. Because my responsibility is limited to simply capturing dry audio files, I really want to make sure the gain structure is correct. So, the less gain points I have to deal with, the better.


    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    You'd configure SAC pretty much as you would for any live FOH gig, except you really don't need any outputs.

    Link SAW to SAC and import the mix data from SAC to automatically transfer your channel information (Labels, EQ, etc) into Saw Studio

    Make sure that SAC and SAW are set to the same Sample Rate and Resolution
    This is kind of why I just want to use SAW. I would like to limit the possibility of mistakes.



    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    Arm the record channels and press record.
    I have limited screen real estate, so I would like to just use SAW if that's possible.





    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    Thats most of what you have to do to get your audio to hard disk. The files are all recorded as standard WAV files so your free to mix in what ever DAW software you want.
    Yep...I will be handing the .wav files off to the client as soon as the show is over.




    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post

    If your going to marry up the audio to video, than make sure you record at 48K, NOT 44.1K
    Interesting. Why is this? I'm glad you brought this up!

    That said, I just tried to fire up saw. I armed the tracks but was NOT prompted for input assignments like in the SAW Studio Orientation Tour.

    When I hit the "RCD" button, I was given an error message of "Output track 1 is assigned to an invalid destination." This doesn't make sense to me, because I'm not using any Output tracks...hmmmm....<:^/ If I DO assign Output 1 to 1, I get a different error message, "One or more outputs are assigned to inactive out-Device 1." Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

    And finally, I'd like to use my headphones to listen to the individual tracks like a PFL or Solo cue. I see SAW has a Solo button, but the tutorial makes it look like that is for post-production only. Can I solo instruments during the recording process?

    Thanx a ton for your help.

    D
    Last edited by Donnie Frank; 08-22-2017 at 10:25 AM.
    DF

    http://soundaddy.com

    Intel DG965OT Motherboard (11/17/08) - Intel P4 LGA-775 651 (Cedar Mill) 3.4GHz CPU
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Why is that? Can you explain why it's easier to use SAC? In my mind, I'm thinking that I want to limit the amount of mistakes I can make. Because my responsibility is limited to simply capturing dry audio files, I really want to make sure the gain structure is correct. So, the less gain points I have to deal with, the better.

    Because SAC is basically a real console and SAW is a DAW. The interface setup process for SAC is just simpler. There are no additional gain points, its all done in SAC (Actually your gain will be setup on your audio interfaces)


    This is kind of why I just want to use SAW. I would like to limit the possibility of mistakes.


    your already very familiar with SAC, use that to your advantage.


    I have limited screen real estate, so I would like to just use SAW if that's possible.


    Using SAC as a front end to SAW Studio doesn't take up any additional screen real-estate. Once SAW is setup and recording it doesn't need to be on-screen and there is already a simple way to hide the entire SAW interface except for the transport buttons


    If your going to marry up the audio to video, than make sure you record at 48K
    Interesting. Why is this? I'm glad you brought this up!

    Because audio for video is recorded at 48k not 44.1k (if you record at 44.1 it will have to sample rate converted to 48k in order to be used. DON'T DO THAT.


    That said, I just tried to fire up saw. I armed the tracks but was NOT prompted for input assignments like in the SAW Studio Orientation Tour.

    When I hit the "RCD" button, I was given an error message of "Output track 1 is assigned to an invalid destination." This doesn't make sense to me, because I'm not using any Output tracks...hmmmm....<:^/ If I DO assign Output 1 to 1, I get a different error message, "One or more outputs are assigned to inactive out-Device 1." Any idea what I'm doing wrong?


    And now you've run into the reason its easier to use SAC as the front end. No SAW Studio assignments needed.


    And finally, I'd like to use my headphones to listen to the individual tracks like a PFL or Solo cue. I see SAW has a Solo button, but the tutorial makes it look like that is for post-production only. Can I solo instruments during the recording process?

    Again, you already know how to monitor channels with SAC, use that as the front end and you can monitor/solo channels just like you have already been doing.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post
    Why is that? Can you explain why it's easier to use SAC? In my mind, I'm thinking that I want to limit the amount of mistakes I can make. Because my responsibility is limited to simply capturing dry audio files, I really want to make sure the gain structure is correct. So, the less gain points I have to deal with, the better.

    Because SAC is basically a real console and SAW is a DAW. The interface setup process for SAC is just simpler. There are no additional gain points, its all done in SAC (Actually your gain will be setup on your audio interfaces)
    <stuff deleted to save bandwidth>

    Okay, sir. I am convinced that I should be using SAC. Will do! Thanx a ton for your great advice. I will probably have more questions...maybe not....<:^)

    Thanx again.

    Regards,

    Donnie
    DF

    http://soundaddy.com

    Intel DG965OT Motherboard (11/17/08) - Intel P4 LGA-775 651 (Cedar Mill) 3.4GHz CPU
    2.0GB 800Mhz RAM - 40GB Intel X25-V SSD - 500GB SATA "Spinner"

    RME HDSP 9652 (x2 - 1 spare) - Behringer ADA8000 (x5 - 2 spares)
    CM MotorMix (x3 - Host system) - Behringer BCF-2000 (Remote system)


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Here is a quick procedure list you can use as a starting point

    1. Setup SAC inputs (Assign Inputs, Label channels)
    2. Check your input gains and leave yourself a bit of extra headroom to prevent clipping (its ok to run gains conservatively)
    3. Check SAC sample rate and resolution (set to 48k and 24bit)
    4. Setup SAC output channels for your headphone mix so you can solo channels
    5. Take SAC offline (Turn off Live)
    5. Launch SAW Studio
    6. Activate SAC Link (Options --> Activate SAC Link)
    7. Without selecting any channels in SAC copy the channel information into SAW Studio (Options --> SAC Link Options --> Import Mix Data from SAC Input Channels)
    8. By default the channel tap for SAW Studio will be at the head of the Input Chain on SAC (Input Chan Play Tap At SRC). You don't need to change this.
    9. Set SAW Studio sample rate and resolution - set to 48k and 24bit. (MultiTrack --> SampleRate --> 48000) (MultiTrack --> Resolution --> 24-bit)
    10. Click on the "[SAC - Link]" menu (top-left side). This will switch you to SAC.
    11. Take SAC back online (Turn on Live)
    12. Click [SAW-Link] (This will switch you back to SAW Studio
    13. Control Click on the first SAW Studio Input Channel Record Button
    • SAW Studio will ask you to save a session file.
    • Navigate to your Record drive/Folder and pick a File Name (Keep in mind all channels will get this name as a prefix to each Wav File, so don't go crazy with the file name)

    14. All of your record meters should now be displayed. The input tracks should correspond to your SAC channels, but you should double check this.
    • Click on "REC RDY" (this will take the record meters live and you can check each channel to make sure its working and recording the channel you expect)
    • In the top-Left side of the transport window there is a button that says "H/S". If you click this it will hide Saw Studio except for the transport buttons. You can now switch back to SAC from the windows task bar. The transport buttons will remain visible even while SAC is the front application and you can start and stop the recording as needed.
    • alternatively you can start the recording while SAW Studio is on top and then use the [SAC-Link][SAW-Link] buttons to switch back and forth as needed.

    15. At the end of your show, switch back to SAW Studio. Stop the recording. Close the record meters by clicking on the Blue close box on the Top-Right side of the record meters.
    16. Save your session. File -->Save and Update Session (Control S)

    You should now have a full multi-track recording full of wave files.

    Print this out. Test test test. Adjust recipe as needed.

    The one place that can mess you up is the SAW Studio record meter channel assignments. This is the Input assigned to each of the tracks. If you click on the display (blackish box right above where its says "Input" on the record meter) you will get a pop-up that shows you what input is assigned to the record track. If you follow the steps I've outlined, all of that should be done automatically, but its always import to check this, particularly since your not doing this regularly.

    hope this helps.
    Last edited by cgrafx; 08-22-2017 at 01:49 PM.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnie Frank View Post


    I found a couple tutorials, but nothing that showed how to use just SAW. This is going to be a super simple recording - just 24 channels dry, post-attenuation - so I would like to use just SAW if possible.
    There are over 50 tutorials there to show you how to use SawStudio, I am guessing you did not look to the right index and see "Tutorials"?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Hello,

    I have put together the information provided by cgrafx and UpTilDawn into a single, printable pdf file.

    Have a peep: Recording a SAC Mix Session using SAWStudio

    PS: Let me know if there are any errors.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Long time, no see...everything has changed...

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_es335 View Post
    Hello,

    I have put together the information provided by cgrafx and UpTilDawn into a single, printable pdf file.

    Have a peep: Recording a SAC Mix Session using SAWStudio

    PS: Let me know if there are any errors.
    Nice going!
    There's a couple of details I want to check this evening, when I've got more time... there's at least one point that may not work exactly as you laid it out there, too. If you have the chance to check this out with your own gear, I hope you've tested these steps to be sure it works as anticipated.

    In particular, it may be that SAC needs to be LIVE in order for the Import Data to take place in SAW.
    Also, check to see if you might be better served to leave SAC LIVE after setting it up the way you want it and before opening SAW. It might save some going back and forth... maybe even pre-blackening the SAC channels you want to record, if it is known at that point.

    There's also a couple things I want to check about the behavior of both SAC and SAW, when switching back and forth and the use of the H/S and the Sac/Saw links... on my systems I have to fiddle around to get the back and forth to display properly, but don't recall exactly at the moment. You may want to test on your own setup, because it may just be mine.

    One last thing - I have run into a problem in the past when stopping a recording with the transport buttons, while they are overlaid with SAC. I need to test that behavior again before I commit to my idea of it, but it may be better to stay safe and only stop a recording after first making SAW the active view.
    SAW/SAC - finally retired a P4/2gHz after ten great years! Burnin' rubber in 2015 with an Intel Core2 Duo e4700/2.6GHz and the trusty RME Digiface/PCI pack.

    2013 Iowa City JazzFest sets recorded/mixed in SAW with SAC as a front-end mixer for live streaming radio!
    Dr Lonnie Smith Trio w/Jonathan Kreisberg on guitar
    Pharoah Sanders Quartet
    Fred Hersch Trio

    These are post mix sets to single camera video (by Rich Rauch).

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