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Thread: Latency

  1. #1

    Default Latency

    Some of my thoughts and observations here might have been covered in previous threads, so apologies in advance for the redundancy. But, I had some recent observations to share to hopefully get to the bottom of my current dilemma.

    I've been considering ditching the hardware console for some time and moving things completely "in the box." (With the obvious exception of mic preamps, and maybe a few favorite outboard processors...) So, I've been researching a few different options as far as interfaces/sound cards. It just so happens that a friend of mine is looking to part with his brand new Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 (it wasn't really what he was after for what he does...), so he's letting me demo it for a while. I also got my hands on a Digigram VX882e 8-channel sound card, so I've been fooling with that too.

    I've been trying to set up a situation where I have a multitrack session, about 16 tracks recorded, and I'm overdubbing some vocals, as this is the most likely situation I'd find myself in aside from just mixing. I've got the session up in SAW, and I've got the mic going into, say, the Focusrite's Input 1. I've got headphones plugged into the Focusrite's headphone out. I'm trying to set up a route where I get the mix in the phones (using Aux 6, duplicating the main mix, and sending the Aux 6 Master to the Focusrite output assigned to the phones...), and then adding reverb to the phones mix, following the suggestions in the SAW manual.

    The signals are all going where they're supposed to, but no matter what buffer settings I use, I still get noticeable latency delay, even when I'm just monitoring and not actually recording or playing back. The amusing bit is that this Focusrite 18i20 is advertised as 2ND GENERATION(!!), meaning they supposedly redesigned it for "super low" latency and more stable drivers. The stable drivers, I believe. The "super low" latency, not so much. I ran a round-trip latency test on it, and it clocked in at around 9ms. The Digigram card was around 10ms. Just for grins, I put the buffer settings in the cellar, 2x32, and things fell apart. So the lowest I can go is 64, and even then there's an occasional dropout if I have fewer than 4 buffers.

    I could just use the Focusrite's own software monitor mixer to set up a headphone mix between the mic and the rest of the mix, but then I wouldn't be able to add mic effects to that mix without introducing a noticeable delay.

    Unless I'm just not setting things up correctly.

    I was a bit confused as to where the reverb plugin for the headphone mix should be patched in SAW.
    Would the upcoming 64-bit version of SAW handle this any better?
    The system I'm running this on is an i5 with 8GB of RAM. Is that enough?
    Does SAC do a better job with this sort of thing?
    Is there a way to monitor the clean mic signal in the Focusrite (or other interface), but still run a reverb return for it through SAW? (One can live with a slight delay on just the reverb...)

  2. #2

    Default Re: Latency

    Make sure you are using ASIO drivers... then set the buffer sizes in the driver to 64 or close... then in the SAW Audio Device setup make sure to pick 1 or 2 preload buffers... that should bring your latency down to about 3-6 ms.

    Bob L

  3. #3

    Default Re: Latency

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob L View Post
    Make sure you are using ASIO drivers... then set the buffer sizes in the driver to 64 or close... then in the SAW Audio Device setup make sure to pick 1 or 2 preload buffers... that should bring your latency down to about 3-6 ms.

    Bob L

    Definitely using the ASIO drivers. I'll experiment a little more with 64 buffer size. My initial attempt was spotty at best. I also disabled all plugins except for the reverb. It was the Voxengo Old Skool Verb freebie, which just happened to be the one already in the session I was using for this experiment. I should probably use the SAWStudio Reverb, since it's native. I assume it doesn't alter buffer sizes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Latency

    OK, so I had some time tonight to mess with it. Same session, but this time I stripped out ALL plugins except for SAWStudio Reverb on Return 1.
    ASIO driver at 2x64. Some slightly noticeable latency which became less noticeable if the headphones were loud. (The very tight delay I'm hearing is probably the signal in the headphones lagging slightly behind my voice resonating through my thick skull!)

    Recorded for a couple minutes and heard a skip or two, but other than that it worked fine. Playback was the same buffer setting, and I got a few skips in different places, and playing back the same spots again didn't skip, so it was just playback glitching.

    Tried the whole thing again at 2x128 just for grins, and the result wasn't much different.

    I'm wondering if my machine could use a little more horsepower. It's an i5-3330 3.0GHz with 6GB of RAM running Windows 8.1.

    During recording the MT Load meter hovers around 15%. I pulled up the Windows Task Manager to look at CPU performance, and it was around 13%. Doesn't seem like the stuff is breaking a sweat.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Latency

    Hello,

    I tested out the Focusrite 18i20 almost a year ago and was not impressed with it at all.

    The ZOOM UAC8 performed much, much better.

    Some here have had great success with the RME/USB implementation.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Latency

    Quote Originally Posted by CurtZHP View Post

    I'm wondering if my machine could use a little more horsepower. It's an i5-3330 3.0GHz with 6GB of RAM running Windows 8.1.
    The problem is the interface not the CPU. You system is plenty fast enough, you just need an interface with more efficient drivers.
    ---------------------------------------
    Philip G.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Latency

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_es335 View Post
    Hello,

    I tested out the Focusrite 18i20 almost a year ago and was not impressed with it at all.

    The ZOOM UAC8 performed much, much better.

    Some here have had great success with the RME/USB implementation.

    Yeah, I'm kind of disappointed with it myself. I actually wanted to like it. When they came out with the Saffire Pro 40, I got to try one for a review I did for a magazine article, and that was a pretty decent piece of gear. I figured this was just a new and improved (and USB) version of it.

    I'd love to get my mitts on an RME unit (got to try their Babyface Pro...), but they're simply out of my price range. I should probably just stick with what I've got until I can afford one.

    It seems all the big guns in audio interfaces are going the way of Thunderbolt, if they haven't already. Have any of you guys had any luck with Thunderbolt on a PC?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Latency

    Quote Originally Posted by cgrafx View Post
    The problem is the interface not the CPU. You system is plenty fast enough, you just need an interface with more efficient drivers.

    Sure is looking that way. In the course of experimenting, I think I came across somewhat of a workaround anyway.
    In the SAW mixer, I set the track I was recording to the hardware input on the interface I was using. Then I set the recording input to that mixer channel. In the interface monitor control, I brought up that input and the SAW output. For headphone reverb, I sent the reverb return to that output, but I dropped the mic input channel aux send from the aux master that was feeding the phones. So, basically, I just sent everything EXCEPT the dry mic signal out of SAW to the interface. The dry signal was monitored directly from the interface, so no latency. Worked great, once I got sufficient buffers to prevent dropouts. But, just for laughs, while I was recording, I went ahead and brought up the dry mic signal in the SAW aux feed. HOLY LATENCY, BATMAN!! Reminded me of the old days of doing ISDN interviews when someone would inadvertently have a loop-back going! "What-what did-did you-you say-say??"

    Anyway, as I told mr_es335, this Focusrite interface is disappointing.

    I don't suppose trying SAC would improve matters in this case?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Latency

    CurtZHP,
    I don't suppose trying SAC would improve matters in this case?
    ....I am afraid not...I primarily use SAC, and for me I generally find SAW much for "forgiving" if I can use that term.

    I have also owned two Pro 40's and I would never consider Focusrite again.

    For interest, have you had a look at Richard's comments with regards to the Behringer U-PHORIA UMC1820...see it here...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Latency

    Quote Originally Posted by CurtZHP View Post
    Sure is looking that way. In the course of experimenting, I think I came across somewhat of a workaround anyway.
    In the SAW mixer, I set the track I was recording to the hardware input on the interface I was using. Then I set the recording input to that mixer channel. In the interface monitor control, I brought up that input and the SAW output. For headphone reverb, I sent the reverb return to that output, but I dropped the mic input channel aux send from the aux master that was feeding the phones. So, basically, I just sent everything EXCEPT the dry mic signal out of SAW to the interface. The dry signal was monitored directly from the interface, so no latency. Worked great, once I got sufficient buffers to prevent dropouts. But, just for laughs, while I was recording, I went ahead and brought up the dry mic signal in the SAW aux feed. HOLY LATENCY, BATMAN!! Reminded me of the old days of doing ISDN interviews when someone would inadvertently have a loop-back going! "What-what did-did you-you say-say??"

    Anyway, as I told mr_es335, this Focusrite interface is disappointing.

    I don't suppose trying SAC would improve matters in this case?
    What part of "Worked Great" didn't you like?

    I ditched the outboard mixer a few years ago and have used Lynx and RME mixer applets happily. It took a little getting used to on sibilant sounds, but not long. I'm guessing that they use the same approach you did above to get the mic into the headphones with only the AD/DA latency. I admit that they are somewhat more expensive interfaces, but my son has a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd Gen and uses the Focusrite software to drive headphones, etc. I haven't asked him about latency, but he's used to playing in dive bars with crappy sound, so maybe it doesn't bother him. He's on a Mac, so maybe that's part of it. Not sure. I don't think the Focusrite applet offers reverb, but you can patch an external processor (which reduces the appeal of mixing in the box).

    Focusrite talks about latency (in very basic terms) and also mentions your workaround as the way to go here:

    https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-...ith-Interfaces

    The link on the page above is broken, but here are their tips for XP:

    https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-...-on-Windows-XP
    Ian Alexander
    VO Talent/Audio Producer
    www.IanAlexander.com

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